BYU - How do they ever lose????

[ktuck911]

literally they gave a roster full of grown men

 

[formerlurker]

It's the off season training that gives them an edge.

 

[jdb50]

They made navy look like the Munchkins.

 

[ktuck911]

They have full grown men with families, married and all

 

[Ldandy]

Older doesn’t necessarily mean more talented. They can out hustle, out work, or out experience a number of teams on their schedule, but over the course of a normal season they aren’t going to out athlete many of the big names they face. 8-4 is about their ceiling with an occasional uptick or downturn.

 

[ktuck911]

Older doesn’t necessarily mean more talented. They can out hustle, out work, or out experience a number of teams on their schedule, but over the course of a normal season they aren’t going to out athlete many of the big names they face. 8-4 is about their ceiling with an occasional uptick or downturn.

wouldn't that be nice to have though? pretty much a guaranteed winning record every year, bowling every year... not necessarily winning it all, but maybe a chance to do that every now and again.. It's essentially an unfair advantage, but it'd be nice to have....

 

[Hogoff]

Just need to recruit Mormons.

 

[hank970]

Ldandy said: "Older doesn’t necessarily mean more talented."

True, but it generally suggests more maturity. There's a difference between men and boys.

 

[ktuck911]

Ldandy said: "Older doesn’t necessarily mean more talented."

True, but it generally suggests more maturity. There's a difference between men and boys.

Exactly

 

[Irishfan]

It’s a two year advantage. So instead of 19, 20, 21 and 22 year olds, they have 21, 22, 23 and 24 year olds. And it’s not like these are two extra years spent training for the football team, they are two years spent working in some third world area doing missionary work. So while being two years older might be an advantage, spending two years away from football and a training table might be a disadvantage.

 

[Exit 4]

BYU’s roster being typically 2 years old than the avg team is a huge advantage. It explains a lot about their steady winning ways. I don’t see what there is to really argue here. Just watch football you always see a jump in size and speed. Start with watching some HS tape, then watch some FCS, then some P5, then the NFL. When it comes to physical bodies BYU squads in many seasons (but not all seasons) can look like a 1/2 step between the P5 and NFL. Mature arms, mature legs, mature faces! Of course football about more than mature bodies. You need a few athletes and you need a schedule that voters respect. And of course the piles of talent that load up the top 15 programs tend to out perform that 2 year age advantage for BYU. For the rest of FBS, BYU is a big challenge- they wear you down.

 

[Irishfan]

BYU’s roster being typically 2 years old than the avg team is a huge advantage. It explains a lot about their steady winning ways. I don’t see what there is to really argue here. Just watch football you always see a jump in size and speed. Start with watching some HS tape, then watch some FCS, then some P5, then the NFL. When it comes to physical bodies BYU squads in many seasons (but not all seasons) can look like that 1/2 step between the P5 and NFL. Mature arms, mature legs, mature faces! Of course football about more than mature bodies. You need a few athletes and you need a schedule that voters respect. And of course the piles of P5 talent that load up the top 15 programs tend to out perform that 2 year age advantage for BYU. For the rest of FBS, BYU is a big challenge- they wear you down.

I think you underestimate the time it takes to get back into football shape after taking two years off. Also, based on your argument, it would seem to be almost impossible for a sophomore to start over a senior on any college team. The fact is, that a good freshman can start on even a great college football team, and a three year starter is not that rare, yet they somehow are able to beat out competitors who are most likely two to three years older.

The quality of the players is far more important than the age. Last year BYU lost to Toledo, Hawaii, San Diego State and USF. It’s hard to believe they have such a huge advantage while losing to those teams. And of course, in 2018 they figured out a way to lose to Utah State and Northern Illinois. Face it, two consecutive 7-6 seasons Is not something that indicates that they have such a huge advantage.

 

[Exit 4]

I think you underestimate the time it takes to get back into football shape after taking two years off. Also, based on your argument, it would seem to be almost impossible for a sophomore to start over a senior on any college team. The fact is, that a good freshman can start on even a great college football team, and a three year starter is not that rare, yet they somehow are able to beat out competitors who are most likely two to three years older.

The quality of the players is far more important than the age. Last year BYU lost to Toledo, Hawaii, San Diego State and USF. It’s hard to believe they have such a huge advantage while losing to those teams. And of course, in 2018 they figured out a way to lose to Utah State and Northern Illinois. Face it, two consecutive 7-6 seasons Is not something that indicates that they have such a huge advantage.

The typical senior Guard at BYU is going to be more effective than the typical senior guard at some MAC, SunBelt, CUSA, MW or bottom rung P5 school on average. On avg they have the mental and physical maturity advantage at BYU because their kids on avg are just a bit older and that absolutely helps. Now can that advantage because of an older avg age be defeated by younger superior talent? Of course it can. BYU's mature bodies/mature minds advantage doesn't fully negate their three recruiting disadvantages; i) their religious priorities which steers away talent, ii) the fact they aren't part of the P5 club and iii) their more rigorous academic standards (vs Boise, App St and UCF which aren't academic powerhouses).

While BYU hasn't been as steady as it once was, they still do a lot of winning, far better than the typical non P5 school. Can they catch Boise State, App State and UCF to regain the non P5 winning % crown? Probably not because of the religious element and their more serious academic standards negate the age benefit.

We'll never be able to know for sure, but my hunch is that if BYU played their seasons w/o the benefit of kids over age 22 they would do a lot less winning. They dont always have superior talent, but they have more mature talent to plug holds and offer important roster depth.

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[hank970]

"And it’s not like these are two extra years spent training for the football team, they are two years spent working in some third world area doing missionary work. So while being two years older might be an advantage, spending two years away from football and a training table might be a disadvantage."

Not all Mormon kids on missions are assigned to third-world backwaters. Some of them knock on my door every year right here in western Colorado (and probably in your neck of the woods, too). If I'm raking leaves or building a set of shelves or whatever, they eagerly volunteer to help with the hope that I'll listen to their pitch or pray with them (I politely decline). I suspect the folks at BYU are sharp enough to ensure that the football recruits they sign out of high school will be assigned in two-man teams to mission locales where they can work out together, running laps and lifting weights. It's all about motivation.

Beyond that, if the Marine Corps can transform once-overweight recruits from the pachyderm platoon into chiseled combat-ready bodies in twelve weeks of boot camp, then BYU trainers can bring former missionaries into football shape just as quickly when they return to campus. Semper fi.

 

[Irishfan]

"And it’s not like these are two extra years spent training for the football team, they are two years spent working in some third world area doing missionary work. So while being two years older might be an advantage, spending two years away from football and a training table might be a disadvantage."

Not all Mormon kids on missions are assigned to third-world backwaters. Some of them knock on my door every year right here in western Colorado (and probably in your neck of the woods, too). If I'm raking leaves or building a set of shelves or whatever, they eagerly volunteer to help with the hope that I'll listen to their pitch or pray with them (I politely decline). I suspect the folks at BYU are sharp enough to ensure that the football recruits they sign out of high school will be assigned in two-man teams to mission locales where they can work out together, running laps and lifting weights. It's all about motivation.

Beyond that, if the Marine Corps can transform once-overweight recruits from the pachyderm platoon into chiseled combat-ready bodies in twelve weeks of boot camp, then BYU trainers can bring former missionaries into football shape just as quickly when they return to campus. Semper fi.

the difference of the two extra years seems to have an impact depending on the coaches in place. From the 50’s to 1970 BYU football had a combined winning percentage of 42%. Then Lovell Edwards came in and then Bronco Mendenhall. With these two guys, the winning percentage increased to over 70%. Now under Sitake, the winning percentage is down to 52%. It seems like the impact on the two extra years is really less important than the quality of the head coach.

 

[DoctorWho85]

How does BYU lose? Bad coaching. Doesn't matter if they're on average 2 years older or not. A well coached team almost always beat a bad coached team.

 

[uconnfan68]

the difference of the two extra years seems to have an impact depending on the coaches in place. From the 50’s to 1970 BYU football had a combined winning percentage of 42%. Then Lovell Edwards came in and then Bronco Mendenhall. With these two guys, the winning percentage increased to over 70%. Now under Sitake, the winning percentage is down to 52%. It seems like the impact on the two extra years is really less important than the quality of the head coach.

It didn’t hurt that they had a slew of outstanding qbs.

 

[Irishfan]

It didn’t hurt that they had a slew of outstanding qbs.

would those outstanding quarterbacks still have been outstanding without
the extra two years. I think yes.

 

[ktuck911]

And the butt whippins continue... They're mollywhopping La Tech tonite... Skip and his boys getting hung out to dry by those grown men...

 

[bc puckett]

would those outstanding quarterbacks still have been outstanding without
the extra two years. I think yes.

Not everyone on BYU’s roster goes on a 2 year mission or for that matter is even Morman. One of the best QB’s in school history is Jim McMahon who is Irish-Catholic and came very close to expulsion many times during his career for failing to comply with Morman and BYU rules Also can any one give me any BYU win other than beating a 6-6 Michigan team to win a cheesy national championship that actually meant anything?

 

[Ldandy]

BYU’s roster being typically 2 years old than the avg team is a huge advantage. It explains a lot about their steady winning ways. I don’t see what there is to really argue here. Just watch football you always see a jump in size and speed. Start with watching some HS tape, then watch some FCS, then some P5, then the NFL. When it comes to physical bodies BYU squads in many seasons (but not all seasons) can look like a 1/2 step between the P5 and NFL. Mature arms, mature legs, mature faces! Of course football about more than mature bodies. You need a few athletes and you need a schedule that voters respect. And of course the piles of talent that load up the top 15 programs tend to out perform that 2 year age advantage for BYU. For the rest of FBS, BYU is a big challenge- they wear you down.

BYU won a lot in the 80’s and 90’s because Lavelle Edwards was a HOF Coach running an offensive system that was well ahead of its time. His offense attracted great QBs such as McMahon, Young, Bosco, Detmer and others who excelled under his coaching. The advantage of older players people are clamoring about is easily negated by their limitations in recruiting based on location and the obvious religious connection to the program.

 

[Ldandy]

Not everyone on BYU’s roster goes on a 2 year mission or for that matter is even Morman. One of the best QB’s in school history is Jim McMahon who is Irish-Catholic and came very close to expulsion many times during his career for failing to comply with Morman and BYU rules Also can any one give me any BYU win other than beating a 6-6 Michigan team to win a cheesy national championship that actually meant anything?

BYU won a lot of big games during the prime years of Edwards including knocking off a National Champion Miami Team. That said this was due mostly to great offense under Detmer and some sloppy play by The Canes. It wasn’t because of some 24 year old Mormon Supermen LOL.

 

[Exit 4]

The advantage of older players people are clamoring about is easily negated by their limitations in recruiting based on location and the obvious religious connection to the program.

So we agree older players are an advantage

 

[Ldandy]

So we agree older players are an advantage

Nope but others here seem to think they are. They may be more mature based on their life experiences, but does that alone counteract the effects of spending two years away from competition, training, and proper nutrition?

BYU is a good program that has had some strong coaches over the years. They typically beat the teams they should and lose to the more athletically talented ones. They’ve caught lightning in a bottle a few times with a great QB and probably still can if they catch a few breaks.

 

[Exit 4]

Nope but others here seem to think they are. They may be more mature based on their life experiences, but does that alone counteract the effects of spending two years away from competition, training, and proper nutrition?

BYU is a good program that has had some strong coaches over the years. They typically beat the teams they should and lose to the more athletically talented ones. They’ve caught lightning in a bottle a few times with a great QB and probably still can if they catch a few breaks.

Okay right, being 21-22 ish is not a natural advantage over 19-20. I like to know what five star recruit you saw at age 19 that wasn’t naturally better at age 22? Point being the development arc in football perhaps more than any sport has age as a corollary to improved play. Guys need to time to grow into their bodies for a physical game of one on one confrontation.

Now does BYU get all it should out of that older talent or better question - is that older talent any good to begin with (you have to consider that older talent comes a rather small cultural pool)? Well that question along with the question of coaching, scheming and plain old QB luck is why we play the games.

Considering BYU is relegated to recruiting mostly three star kids (ie peer schools ranked 60 to 130) this cultural age advantage is more effective against the bottom 1/2 of FBS than the top 1/2 where the young talent is just superior. BYU’s age advantage will not win National championshipa.