OT: Buying a Combi-Boiler

[dogpause]

There seems to be a lot of manufacturers to choose from: A.O. Smith, Rinnai, Navien, etc. I've had a Navien for about 10 years but considering a different choice this time around.

 

[8893]

A.O. Smith

Is that E.O.'s brother?

 

[Adesmar123]

There seems to be a lot of manufacturers to choose from: A.O. Smith, Rinnai, Navien, etc. I've had a Navien for about 10 years but considering a different choice this time around.

I just leave me some boiled combi!

Make sure you get the imported.

 

[Kolumbo]

We had a Navien installed earlier this year and it has been awesome. Replaced our old furnace, water heater and oil tank. I don't know how it compares to the others but our contractor said it was one of the best.

 

[CL82]

I just leave me some boiled combi!

Make sure you get the imported.

Boiled? Bah, you need to smoke it using pimento sticks.

 

[Adesmar123]

Boiled? Bah, you need to smoke it using pimento sticks.

I smoked it in college, but stopped after that.

 

[QuickDraw]

The supply chain for many items has been interrupted, you may want to check on what's currently available and lead times on back-ordered items depending on your time frame. I work in construction and product availability is hit & miss right now, with heating season upon us inventory will dwindle fast.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Just installed a Utica Propane Boiler. Thing is terrific. Had an old oil New Yorker, this is much cleaner and the setup is nice.

 

[bfs3]

There seems to be a lot of manufacturers to choose from: A.O. Smith, Rinnai, Navien, etc. I've had a Navien for about 10 years but considering a different choice this time around.

As someone who has been selling these the last 15 years, the only high efficiency combi boiler that will last over 10 years is a Bosch Green Star. Navient uses plastic parts inside their boilers. It's an on demand water heater converted to heat your home. Repairs on cheap combi boilers run over $1000 each. If you want something that will last 20-30 years then you're honestly better off getting a cast iron boiler 80%. For efficiency and better hot water get a stainless steel indirect water heater. They're expensive but most have lifetime warranties. You don't get the .9% financing but at least you wont need to buy 4 boilers over the next 30 years.

The only other decent 95% efficient boiler is Lochinvar. It's less expensive than a Bosch. Stay away from Navien, IBC, Rinnai and AO Smith. They will all break in under 10 years. You'll get free parts but pay $1000 to put it in.

 

[bfs3]

Just installed a Utica Propane Boiler. Thing is terrific. Had an old oil New Yorker, this is much cleaner and the setup is nice.

The Utica is better than the others mentioned but it does have a tendency to leak. Just open up the cover every once in a while and make sure it's ok. I've sold a few dozen Utica 95%ers and I would expect it to make it to 15 years with proper maintenance and installation.

 

[JohnFSilver]

The Utica is better than the others mentioned but it does have a tendency to leak. Just open up the cover every once in a while and make sure it's ok. I've sold a few dozen Utica 95%ers and I would expect it to make it to 15 years with proper maintenance and installation.

Will do with that. Got an indirect water heater installed also -- hot water is amazing, though it wasn't cheap.

 

[HooperScooper]

As someone who has been selling these the last 15 years, the only high efficiency combi boiler that will last over 10 years is a Bosch Green Star. Navient uses plastic parts inside their boilers. It's an on demand water heater converted to heat your home. Repairs on cheap combi boilers run over $1000 each. If you want something that will last 20-30 years then you're honestly better off getting a cast iron boiler 80%. For efficiency and better hot water get a stainless steel indirect water heater. They're expensive but most have lifetime warranties. You don't get the .9% financing but at least you wont need to buy 4 boilers over the next 30 years.

The only other decent 95% efficient boiler is Lochinvar. It's less expensive than a Bosch. Stay away from Navien, IBC, Rinnai and AO Smith. They will all break in under 10 years. You'll get free parts but pay $1000 to put it in.

So I am in the middle of this also and my heating guy wants to install an Energy Kinetics Resolute boiler (90+ Resolute). What do you think of that product?

 

[sledog]

I bought a Burnham when I expanded the house thereby needing a larger unit. The folks at Hitachi Industrial thought it the best boiler in US.

 

[HuskyHawk]

As someone who has been selling these the last 15 years, the only high efficiency combi boiler that will last over 10 years is a Bosch Green Star. Navient uses plastic parts inside their boilers. It's an on demand water heater converted to heat your home. Repairs on cheap combi boilers run over $1000 each. If you want something that will last 20-30 years then you're honestly better off getting a cast iron boiler 80%. For efficiency and better hot water get a stainless steel indirect water heater. They're expensive but most have lifetime warranties. You don't get the .9% financing but at least you wont need to buy 4 boilers over the next 30 years.

The only other decent 95% efficient boiler is Lochinvar. It's less expensive than a Bosch. Stay away from Navien, IBC, Rinnai and AO Smith. They will all break in under 10 years. You'll get free parts but pay $1000 to put it in.

This is exactly my set up. Probably due to hard water issues (now solved) we did have to replace the cast iron part of the boiler and have gone through 4 different "lifetime" stainless indirect fired hot water heaters. Replaced under warranty, but we pay for labor.

 

[JohnFSilver]

This is exactly my set up. Probably due to hard water issues (now solved) we did have to replace the cast iron part of the boiler and have gone through 4 different "lifetime" stainless indirect fired hot water heaters. Replaced under warranty, but we pay for labor.

It is funny how u become experts out of necessity.

house in Farmington has well, so my tankless boiler provided on demand hot water. Great right? No way. The hard water absolutely desoteyes the tankless coil twice in 8 years. That is an $1800 repair.

I went and splurged on an indirect system for $3200. No problems. Than, when the oil boiler needed a new power vent ($2k) decided to just go to propane.

I even looked at geothermal heat pump. But the cost is like $20k at a minimum. I don’t care how cheap it is to run.

 

[HuskyHawk]

It is funny how u become experts out of necessity.

house in Farmington has well, so my tankless boiler provided on demand hot water. Great right? No way. The hard water absolutely desoteyes the tankless coil twice in 8 years. That is an $1800 repair.

I went and splurged on an indirect system for $3200. No problems. Than, when the oil boiler needed a new power vent ($2k) decided to just go to propane.

I even looked at geothermal heat pump. But the cost is like $20k at a minimum. I don’t care how cheap it is to run.

Yep. I went with a water softener, because the water also destroyed an expensive Kitchen Aid dishwasher. And was wrecking my sprinkler heads too. But it was my indirect water tank that was needing replacement, even with the stainless.

My well is about 570 ft deep and my house is on ledge.

 

[bmayuc]

Went with Navien and love it

 

[bfs3]

So I am in the middle of this also and my heating guy wants to install an Energy Kinetics Resolute boiler (90+ Resolute). What do you think of that product?

I'm honestly not familiar with that boiler.

 

[bfs3]

I bought a Burnham when I expanded the house thereby needing a larger unit. The folks at Hitachi Industrial thought it the best boiler in US.

Burnham / Crown boilers in general are a great value. They've made affordable cast iron steam and hot water boilers for decades. Very similar to Utica. If you have hard water stay away from high efficiency all together. If it kills a cast iron boiler then it will only be worse with a high efficiency.

 

[bfs3]

So I am in the middle of this also and my heating guy wants to install an Energy Kinetics Resolute boiler (90+ Resolute). What do you think of that product?

Is this a System 2000 oil boiler? If it is, dont buy it. You're better off with a Buderus 87% Very reliable oil boiler with a Riello burner.

 

[HooperScooper]

Is this a System 2000 oil boiler? If it is, dont buy it. You're better off with a Buderus 87% Very reliable oil boiler with a Riello burner.

I believe so. Here is the data sheet on it he gave me.

 

[bfs3]

I believe so. Here is the data sheet on it he gave me.

System 2000 boilers are incredibly finicky. Most HVAC technicians simply wont touch them. As soon as you hit 90% efficiency your boiler begins to condense. This means it creates moisture in the flue pipe and that's why high efficiency gas boilers use PVC or CPVC for their flue pipes. This is why the Buderus Blue Flame (Bosch) maxes at 89%. I've never seen a System 2000 over 18 years old. The moisture and the parts used to reach the efficiency break often and expensive to fix. You'll also be stuck with this installer for repairs and whatever he wants to charge you. In my opinion the best and most reliable oil boiler is the Buderus without the blue flame burner. Instead, get the Riello burner. Its still a very high end boiler but most techs can work on them and parts are readily available. It also still achieves Energy Star efficiency at 87% and the Riello burner is incredibly quiet.

System 2000s have been around for a while but for a similar cost the Buderus will last over 25 years, be very close in efficiency and it will be much more reliable. Some actually would bet it uses less oil despite its slightly lower combustion efficiency. I live in Atlanta now so unfortunately all this experience is wasted here lol.

 

[tykurez]

Can someone explain for a dummy like me what a combi-boiler is and why people are replacing them every 10 years.

I have a Weil-McLain that’s 6 years old and I planned on having it for another 15+ unless something crazy happens. Oil and provides hot water as well, is that combi?

I’m on single pipe steam radiators and have no idea if that makes a difference? All this talk of leaks and hard water ruining things has me nervous I’m not aware of an imminent issue.

 

[bfs3]

Can someone explain for a dummy like me what a combi-boiler is and why people are replacing them every 10 years.

I have a Weil-McLain that’s 6 years old and I planned on having it for another 15+ unless something crazy happens. Oil and provides hot water as well, is that combi?

I’m on single pipe steam radiators and have no idea if that makes a difference? All this talk of leaks and hard water ruining things has me nervous I’m not aware of an imminent issue.

You have a steam boiler, cast iron heat exchanger with a tankless coil. Keep it cleaned every year and it should make it to 25-30. Combi boilers are high efficiency gas boilers. The ones that dont vent through the chimney and can hang on a wall. Those dont last more than 10 or 15 years. 80% boilers that make "on demand" hot water are called tankless coils. They provide about a showers worth of hot water and have been around for 70 years. The only bad thing is Weil Mclanes aren't made like they used to be, so you need to be good about the maintenance. If you find you want more hot water then have a plumber add an electric storage tank to it and you'll have more than you'll ever need for around $1000-$1500. You're fine, sleep well.

 

[HooperScooper]

System 2000 boilers are incredibly finicky. Most HVAC technicians simply wont touch them. As soon as you hit 90% efficiency your boiler begins to condense. This means it creates moisture in the flue pipe and that's why high efficiency gas boilers use PVC or CPVC for their flue pipes. This is why the Buderus Blue Flame (Bosch) maxes at 89%. I've never seen a System 2000 over 18 years old. The moisture and the parts used to reach the efficiency break often and expensive to fix. You'll also be stuck with this installer for repairs and whatever he wants to charge you. In my opinion the best and most reliable oil boiler is the Buderus without the blue flame burner. Instead, get the Riello burner. Its still a very high end boiler but most techs can work on them and parts are readily available. It also still achieves Energy Star efficiency at 87% and the Riello burner is incredibly quiet.

System 2000s have been around for a while but for a similar cost the Buderus will last over 25 years, be very close in efficiency and it will be much more reliable. Some actually would bet it uses less oil despite its slightly lower combustion efficiency. I live in Atlanta now so unfortunately all this experience is wasted here lol.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I will talk to him about this.

 

[The Funster]

I worked for an HVAC contractor for over 30 years and now work for an HVAC wholesaler. I don't sell the Navien but it seems to be the best of the bunch right now. Personally, I would stay away from them. They seem to have an effective lifetime (around 10 years) which is short for such a steep investment. You can go with a standard size high efficiency boiler and have much better reliability, IMO.

 

[The Funster]

Can someone explain for a dummy like me what a combi-boiler is and why people are replacing them every 10 years.

I have a Weil-McLain that’s 6 years old and I planned on having it for another 15+ unless something crazy happens. Oil and provides hot water as well, is that combi?

I’m on single pipe steam radiators and have no idea if that makes a difference? All this talk of leaks and hard water ruining things has me nervous I’m not aware of an imminent issue.

Weil makes a great steam boiler. Have it serviced every year and you'll get 20+ years from it. Single pipe steam is just that. Steam rises to each radiator and then when the steam cools and condenses it flows back down the same pipe to the boiler. This is not the same "condensing" that is referred to with high effiency boilers. Same principle but a different application.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Hmm.

You have a steam boiler, cast iron heat exchanger with a tankless coil. Keep it cleaned every year and it should make it to 25-30. Combi boilers are high efficiency gas boilers. The ones that dont vent through the chimney and can hang on a wall. Those dont last more than 10 or 15 years. 80% boilers that make "on demand" hot water are called tankless coils. They provide about a showers worth of hot water and have been around for 70 years. The only bad thing is Weil Mclanes aren't made like they used to be, so you need to be good about the maintenance. If you find you want more hot water then have a plumber add an electric storage tank to it and you'll have more than you'll ever need for around $1000-$1500. You're fine, sleep well.

Got me thinking if i need a water softener before the water goes into the boiler. I love the taste if my well water, and my applicanes are fine. I have full house filter, but not a softener.

Wife will kill me if I keep on spending money there.

 

[tykurez]

Hmm.


Got me thinking if i need a water softener before the water goes into the boiler. I love the taste if my well water, and my applicanes are fine. I have full house filter, but not a softener.

Wife will kill me if I keep on spending money there.

Probably worthwhile to get a water test kit or have someone come out and test it. I plan on doing that since the last time we had it tested it was slightly on the hard side

 

[tykurez]

You have a steam boiler, cast iron heat exchanger with a tankless coil. Keep it cleaned every year and it should make it to 25-30. Combi boilers are high efficiency gas boilers. The ones that dont vent through the chimney and can hang on a wall. Those dont last more than 10 or 15 years. 80% boilers that make "on demand" hot water are called tankless coils. They provide about a showers worth of hot water and have been around for 70 years. The only bad thing is Weil Mclanes aren't made like they used to be, so you need to be good about the maintenance. If you find you want more hot water then have a plumber add an electric storage tank to it and you'll have more than you'll ever need for around $1000-$1500. You're fine, sleep well.

Thanks. My only worry with the whole system is the age of the pipes and the quality of my well water. I imagine having semi-regular water tests is also a good idea to make sure nothing dramatic has changed.