Breanna Stewart is indeed the greatest of all time

[Waquoit]

@hoophuskee Yes to all

 

[hoophuskee]

While I will not say it is 'just titles' I do think Breanna's freshman NCAA tournament run was beyond category. Maya had a better freshman year than either Breanna or Diana, but those last five games of Stewart's freshman year were phenomenal and her FF was one for the ages AS A FRESHMAN:
Overall she shot 56% from the floor and 60% from three scoring 20.8 ppg, with 6.2 rebounds per game, seven assists, 17 blocks and 10 steals with 6 turnovers in five games.
In the FF she shot 61.3% and 87.5% from three scoring 26 ppg, with 7 rebounds per game, four assists, seven blocks, four steals and only two turnovers.

[That team had good players and Dolson and KML had arrived as an AAs, but Bria was having a down year after being an AA the previous one, Faris was a great defensive stopper, but Morgan and Moriah were role players as freshman getting 15 and 17 minutes a game. ]

Yes -- "beyond category" but as you say Maya had a better frosh year. In fact in Maya's frosh and sr years, do you think it could be argued if she had what Stewie had - a very good sharp-shooting KML, an upperclassmen in Farris and Dolson that there would have been a better chance Amazing Maya would have had 4 titles under her belt?

Some of Stewie's other games in Final Four's and Finals' weren't as good as for example Amazing Maya's great senior year game vs ND in which UCONN went down. Yet we give Stewie "the nod" for winning 4 titles and being FF MVP but we know at least her jr year that should have been MoJeff. And those 4 titles, is Stewie's teammates performed like Maya's teammates her sr year, the same fate would have probably happened. IMO for example Maya was fine playing center at times her sr year. She just needed help is similar to what Stewie would need.

Stewie had to "get pulled" in her frosh year because some games she was so bad. When did THAT ever happen to Amazing Maya?

So if Stewie "lays an egg" vs Baylor, why should we automatically proclaim she is GOAT over Maya?

 

[hoophuskee]

@hoophuskee Yes to all

Okay- so you are saying DT over Maya too?

 

[Kaizen]

Okay- so you are saying DT over Maya too?

I would say, DT, Maya and Stewie are all the best three. To me, I am very difficult to say who is better than others. May be 10 years later we can conclude.

We are lucky to have all three in UConn and can witness their dynasty.

 

[UcMiami]

Maya's freshman year was a pretty loaded team with Seniors Swanier, Houston, and hobbled Hunter, Junior AA Renee, Sophomore Tina and Kaili, and fellow freshman Dixon who was actually playing about as well as Moriah and as many minutes. Houston was HM by AP and Tina was third team AA. They had lost Greene and Thomas earlier in the year but had plenty of time to adjust. They were both regular and tournament BE champions. Good enough to earn a #1 seed and lost to a two seed Stanford in the FF. Maya played well in the loss, but she scored 20 points on 19 shots, Stewart in her FF game against ND scored 29 points on 16 shots.

 

[Waquoit]

Okay- so you are saying DT over Maya too?

Without question

 

[intlzncster]

Without question

Yeah, I didn't even think that was a question. I thought we were deciding on who was gonna finish second.

 

[hoophuskee]

Maya's freshman year was a pretty loaded team with Seniors Swanier, Houston, and hobbled Hunter, Junior AA Renee, Sophomore Tina and Kaili, and fellow freshman Dixon who was actually playing about as well as Moriah and as many minutes. Houston was HM by AP and Tina was third team AA. They had lost Greene and Thomas earlier in the year but had plenty of time to adjust. They were both regular and tournament BE champions. Good enough to earn a #1 seed and lost to a two seed Stanford in the FF. Maya played well in the loss, but she scored 20 points on 19 shots, Stewart in her FF game against ND scored 29 points on 16 shots.

Sure but instead of those games why can't we look at others as the comparison?

First off- Maya's senior year vs ND she was spectacular. UCONN would have won if you subsitituted Maya's great game if she had the teammates the frosh Stewie (12-13) had in 12-13.

Secondly, in this same line of comparing years, Stewie for example had good support from KML in 12-13 and pretty good support from Farris and Dolson. Give Stewie the support that Maya had in her senior year last game vs ND, imo Stewie isn't winning that game either. SO here we have a clear example that if you give Maya Stewie's teammates she wins too.

And the other loss for Maya in NCAA's- Maya's frosh year is similar to Stewie's jr year. Stewie only took 8 shots and wound up with only 8 points. That's not that good. While Maya took 19 shots as a frosh her EFG% was 50%. THAT 50% is the same as Stewie's was year when she was a junior. Give Maya -- MoJeff and KML and the jr Morgan Tuck - imo that is superior to the Big 3 of the young soph Tina, Hot-and-cold-Renee, and anyone else you want to add which Maya played with as a frosh.

MoJeff is HUGE in this case to help support Stewie last year. She should have been Final Four MVP last year. I love Renee but MoJeff is better. Tuck and KML superior to the young Tina and whomever else we add.

 

[NoelAustin]

If we could miraculously transform the bodies of Maya and DT into what they were at Stewie's current age, and hold a draft - I would be so thrilled just to have the third pick.

 

[Geno-ista]

This is painful to try to pick the best among so many greats-
I think Diana carrying a group of freshmen/young role players to a couple national championships was a feat greater than if Breanna wins 4 Nat. Championships.
She was our only off threat and she made it all happen.
Stewie walked into phenomenal line ups and did rise to the occasion to carry us over the top especially when we needed her.
But I also think that Breanna is the single most dominant player we've ever had.
Period & end of story. And I don't think there was anything more amazing than watching Maya Moore play every play of basketball- the way she played and continues to play the game.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Maya's freshman year was a pretty loaded team with Seniors Swanier, Houston, and hobbled Hunter, Junior AA Renee, Sophomore Tina and Kaili, and fellow freshman Dixon who was actually playing about as well as Moriah and as many minutes. Houston was HM by AP and Tina was third team AA. They had lost Greene and Thomas earlier in the year but had plenty of time to adjust. They were both regular and tournament BE champions. Good enough to earn a #1 seed and lost to a two seed Stanford in the FF. Maya played well in the loss, but she scored 20 points on 19 shots, Stewart in her FF game against ND scored 29 points on 16 shots.

I think that Tina at that time was still a pretty big underachiever (she didn't GET IT until part way through her junior year) and that Houston was totally erratic. One moment splendid, then totally out of control. I've said before that Renee Montgomery was not a favorite of mine because I think she was one of the few Geno players that seemed to be more of a "me first"player than the team player that Geno espouses. All too often I remember her forcing shots or taking a disputed shot when there were teammates available that had more open looks and that bothered me. In my mind, those players weren't anywhere near as good a TEAM at that point in time as Breanna's teams were. I think the one ingredient that was special to formulate Breannai's freshman year TEAM was KML! I think losing Mel Thomas to injury later in the year really put pressure on Maya to be something she wasn't as proficient with (at least at that time) and that was a three point shooter. That and Tina's weak play in that game with Stanford helped contribute to Maya's less than stellar performance. I think her body of work throughout the year was easily of a higher quality than that of Breanna.

 

[hoophuskee]

Without question

I give a slight edge to DT BUT it is so slight I won't argue. To me both DT and Maya are right there with one another.

I happen to believe for those of us that give it to DT or for those that think they are "right-there super-close" to one another, all of us that think that way - just don't just look at stats. There is something "more." An intangible that DT brings. Such as in the Tenn Game in her Jr year in Htfd - in the last minute or two - Geno told his players during a timeout that maybe his team was too young and it was too early to win a game such as this. I understand DT yelled to paraphrase, "we aren't losing this game!" THIS is coming from a KID - telling an all-time great coach in a tight big game -- that he is wrong. Who does THAT?

DT has an intangible that no one imo can match. So below when you say - not to give Stewie the nod is not giving her her due - I don't agree. She hasn't won number 4 yet. And for example, I think DT has an intangible that is unmatched and if DT or Maya had this particular group of players when they were seniors - I mean in terms of talent- they would win. IMO Stewie should win before it being much more decisive GOAT. If she throws in a bad game and we lose to Baylor - I don't believe the seniors Maya or DT would have let that happen if they had similar talent.


but to not give the nod to Stewart is to not give her, her just due.

 

[baggerbob]

I give a slight edge to DT BUT it is so slight I won't argue. To me both DT and Maya are right there with one another.

I happen to believe for those of us that give it to DT or for those that think they are "right-there super-close" to one another, all of us that think that way - just don't just look at stats. There is something "more." An intangible that DT brings. Such as in the Tenn Game in her Jr year in Htfd - in the last minute or two - Geno told his players during a timeout that maybe his team was too young and it was too early to win a game such as this. I understand DT yelled to paraphrase, "we aren't losing this game!" THIS is coming from a KID - telling an all-time great coach in a tight big game -- that he is wrong. Who does THAT?

DT has an intangible that no one imo can match. So below when you say - not to give Stewie the nod is not giving her her due - I don't agree. She hasn't won number 4 yet. And for example, I think DT has an intangible that is unmatched and if DT or Maya had this particular group of players when they were seniors - I mean in terms of talent- they would win. IMO Stewie should win before it being much more decisive GOAT. If she throws in a bad game and we lose to Baylor - I don't believe the seniors Maya or DT would have let that happen if they had similar talent.


but to not give the nod to Stewart is to not give her, her just due.

DT lost her freshman year with a very good team, Stewie didn't.

 

[Buzzyboy]

Without question

Not me! No way, Jose! Maya all the way!

 

[intlzncster]

DT lost her freshman year with a very good team, Stewie didn't.

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

 

[UcMiami]

Sure but instead of those games why can't we look at others as the comparison?

First off- Maya's senior year vs ND she was spectacular. UCONN would have won if you subsitituted Maya's great game if she had the teammates the frosh Stewie (12-13) had in 12-13.

Secondly, in this same line of comparing years, Stewie for example had good support from KML in 12-13 and pretty good support from Farris and Dolson. Give Stewie the support that Maya had in her senior year last game vs ND, imo Stewie isn't winning that game either. SO here we have a clear example that if you give Maya Stewie's teammates she wins too.

And the other loss for Maya in NCAA's- Maya's frosh year is similar to Stewie's jr year. Stewie only took 8 shots and wound up with only 8 points. That's not that good. While Maya took 19 shots as a frosh her EFG% was 50%. THAT 50% is the same as Stewie's was year when she was a junior. Give Maya -- MoJeff and KML and the jr Morgan Tuck - imo that is superior to the Big 3 of the young soph Tina, Hot-and-cold-Renee, and anyone else you want to add which Maya played with as a frosh.

MoJeff is HUGE in this case to help support Stewie last year. She should have been Final Four MVP last year. I love Renee but MoJeff is better. Tuck and KML superior to the young Tina and whomever else we add.

I think you always judge great players by how they play in big games and there are no bigger games than the regionals and final fours when looking at uconn teams and players. This particular set of posts got started because I said I don't specifically count championships, but what Breanna did as a freshman for me separated her. She did not have as good a freshman year as Maya had, but in the most important four games of her freshman year she was phenomenal and she was better in those games than either Maya or DT. DT had the worst game of her career in the FF her freshman year, Maya had a very good game in the FF but she was not efficient shooting and her team lost, and Breanna had one of the best games of her career as a freshman in the FF and carried her team to victory. They were all playing on very good #1 seed teams and they all made it to the FF and played very good teams there and Breanna came through as a freshman.
They all had great careers, they were all phenomenal in big games the rest of their careers (Stewart has three games left we hope.) They all played on dominant teams that put together historic winning streaks. There is no wrong answer. For me personally the NCAAs as freshman are the determining factor. And the pivotal moments were the semi-final games. Diana 1-15, 0-11, 4 points in a loss; Maya 8-19, 3-11, 20 points in a loss; Breanna 10-16, 4-5, 29 points in a win. For a lot of other folks, what Diana did her junior and senior year are determining factors that push her ahead of Maya and Breanna. And for others Maya's total game and consistency for four years push her ahead of Diana and Breanna, still others will say three is better than two, and should Breanna win four that will be better than three.

Breanna while struggling much of her freshman year comes close to Maya's career stats, and beyond stats to my eye poses greater issue on both ends of the floor than Maya did - Maya is a phenomenal offensive threat and a very disruptive defender, but because she is taller and longer while having very similar offensive and defensive skills Breanna is just more intimidating - it is much more difficult to shoot over her, and it is much more difficult to make her alter her shot.

 

[UcMiami]

I think that Tina at that time was still a pretty big underachiever (she didn't GET IT until part way through her junior year) and that Houston was totally erratic.

Tina was third team AP AA as a sophomore so I am not sure how much struggle that denotes - she put up better stats in the FF loss than AA Dolson (who had 7 TOs) did in the FF win. I grant you Houston as being erratic but she also played well in the loss. The AAs Montgomery and Hartley both stunk up the joint in those games, but Swanier had one of the better games of her career.

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

Yeah but that team also had Sue Bird (Lieberman award winner) Swin Cash, Asjha Jones, and Tamika Williams as juniors, senior Kelly Schumacher, and sophomore Kenitra Johnson (a forgotten but very good guard) That was not a talent deprived team even with the loss of Shea and Sveta, and they preformed really well until the last 20 minutes of their season.

Maya, Diana, Breanna are all great.
I'm outta here!

 

[hoophuskee]

I think you always judge great players by how they play in big games and there are no bigger games than the regionals and final fours when looking at uconn teams and players. This particular set of posts got started because I said I don't specifically count championships, but what Breanna did as a freshman for me separated her. She did not have as good a freshman year as Maya had, but in the most important four games of her freshman year she was phenomenal and she was better in those games than either Maya or DT. DT had the worst game of her career in the FF her freshman year, Maya had a very good game in the FF but she was not efficient shooting and her team lost, and Breanna had one of the best games of her career as a freshman in the FF and carried her team to victory. They were all playing on very good #1 seed teams and they all made it to the FF and played very good teams there and Breanna came through as a freshman.
They all had great careers, they were all phenomenal in big games the rest of their careers (Stewart has three games left we hope.) They all played on dominant teams that put together historic winning streaks. There is no wrong answer. For me personally the NCAAs as freshman are the determining factor. And the pivotal moments were the semi-final games. Diana 1-15, 0-11, 4 points in a loss; Maya 8-19, 3-11, 20 points in a loss; Breanna 10-16, 4-5, 29 points in a win. For a lot of other folks, what Diana did her junior and senior year are determining factors that push her ahead of Maya and Breanna. And for others Maya's total game and consistency for four years push her ahead of Diana and Breanna, still others will say three is better than two, and should Breanna win four that will be better than three.

Breanna while struggling much of her freshman year comes close to Maya's career stats, and beyond stats to my eye poses greater issue on both ends of the floor than Maya did - Maya is a phenomenal offensive threat and a very disruptive defender, but because she is taller and longer while having very similar offensive and defensive skills Breanna is just more intimidating - it is much more difficult to shoot over her, and it is much more difficult to make her alter her shot.

Love these discussions. And I'm on the cusp of doing the unthinkable for me. It's the combination that is unthinkable and it being all in one year. It is JUST three games away and I'm giddy about that!! Super-Giddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!Putting Stewie as GOAT. MoJeff as Greatest PG. And The Great Morgan Tuck around 12 or so greatest Husky (I assume she is getting 1st team a/a?). AND the biggest of all- is to say this team, 15-16, is the greatest wcbb team I have ever seen.

For me though, they need to WIN,---- THIS YEAR for all of the above.

For me these posts got started with waquoit when he said for anyone not proclaiming Stewie as GOAT that is being a disservice to Stewie. I don't agree. She has to WIN. If she didn't she still might for me- if she were amazing and the others weren't good at all. If Stewie is that great and MoJeff is, they should win. No excuse. They're better than the other player AND they are so greats o they not only make each better but they make surrounding players better. You win it- you are GOAT.

For me- I don't neccessarily compare frosh vs frosh - I'll also look at career vs career and judge teammates. OFC it is all subjective and as you say there is no wrong answer. But for me, Maya did the same thing as a frosh in terms of how she played vs what Stewie did as a junior (last year). Both players EFG% were the same. I'm not going to "penalize" Maya for not having the greatest UCONN pg of all-time and the greatest shooter in Husky History that was also a scorer of all-time. Maya didn't have this as a frosh.

And as you said Maya had the better frosh year. That means something to me. Because if a player were to be a problem and the coach primarily benched her a lot then at the end of the year they make up and the player leads team to a title even though their record was "weak" I would never put that over a dominant superlative player who was brilliant all year and just happened to come up short one game while the team had a sensational record. There are more big games other than NCAA's. Recruits also see it. Being GOAT is an entire package.

I wouldn't say Reggie Jackson is a greater player than Ted Williams. Reggie has had a ton more post-season success. Nor would I put Hondo Havlicek ahead of Larry Bird.

 

[NoelAustin]

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

You have to take the bad with the good.....With Freshman DT the 2001 team lost a FF semi game they might have won without her....With Freshman Breanna the 2013 team won a FF semi game they might have lost without her.

 

[hoophuskee]

DT lost her freshman year with a very good team, Stewie didn't.

I'm not arguing that. But what happens if Stewie loses in HER SENIOR YEAR (her next 3 games)? You think that is comparable to DT losing her freshman year? UCONN had to beat ND the game before on a buzzer beater by Sue Bird. That final four game as considered near 505-50 who would win. If Baylor were to beat UCONN or anyone else, you think that is the same?

It wouldn't for me. UCONN is an overwhelming favorite to win. If there is this kind of letdown - maybe thye didn't come ready to play. ANd if it came from seniors it would make it even worse.

 

[hoophuskee]

DT lost her freshman year with a very good team, Stewie didn't.

You have to take the bad with the good.....With Freshman DT the 2001 team lost a FF semi game they might have won without her....With Freshman Breanna the 2013 team won a FF semi game they might have lost without her.

And to take that next step- suppose Stewie were to lose her senior year and we know DT didn't? Then you'd compare which loss was worse, right?

 

[Wally East]

The 2001 team lost two All Americans Shea Ralph and Svetlana Abrosimova. If they stayed healthy, they would have rolled. The 2013 team got lucky in that regard. Subtract Faris and Hartley or Dolson and does that 2013 team win? Probably not.

So, when they lost, badly, at full-strength?

 

[LadyVols9]

in my honest opinion, I would still take maya or DT over stewie for the "greatest" UCONN player. she may win 4 but I truly believe that Tuck and Jefferson deserved the MVP awards for 2 of the 3 championships. you all know more than me though. just my observation.

 

[Beemer]

in my honest opinion, I would still take maya or DT over stewie for the "greatest" UCONN player. she may win 4 but I truly believe that Tuck and Jefferson deserved the MVP awards for 2 of the 3 championships. you all know more than me though. just my observation.

I believe Stewie said much the same thing about her MVP awards, that she knew Tuck & Jefferson were as deserving of it as she was.

 

[UConnCat]

in my honest opinion, I would still take maya or DT over stewie for the "greatest" UCONN player. she may win 4 but I truly believe that Tuck and Jefferson deserved the MVP awards for 2 of the 3 championships. you all know more than me though. just my observation.

An incorrect observation. Tuck didn't play in the 2014 FF and didn't deserve MOP over Stewart in the 2013 FF. That leaves last year and most agree Moriah deserved the MOP award. So, that's 1 of the 3 awards, not 2.

 

[LadyVols9]

I believe Stewie said much the same thing about her MVP awards, that she knew Tuck & Jefferson were as deserving of it as she was.

true point. I am not even sure how much those awards matter for this discussion anyway. just seems to me that both DT and Maya had that killer instinct. that's why I give them the edge....which is the same reason I give Catchings the edge in LV land. tough as nails

 

[Waquoit]

you all know more than me though.

just seems to me that both DT and Maya had that killer instinct. that's why I give them the edge.

How many times just this year alone has the opponent made a nice play or go on a mini-run only to have Stewie immediately drop a three in their face to break their spirit? (Hint: Often.) That's killer instinct. But because she doesn't follow up her daggers with a look-at-me scowl or exaggerated clapping and arm waves, folks don't think she has a killer instinct. Believe me, she has it as much as any great.

 

[UcMiami]

true point. I am not even sure how much those awards matter for this discussion anyway. just seems to me that both DT and Maya had that killer instinct. that's why I give them the edge....which is the same reason I give Catchings the edge in LV land. tough as nails

An interesting comment, and sort of a general idea that people have that goes to personality and body type. Diana as a combo guard and Maya as a point forward in the Uconn scheme both had more central roles on offense, and people tend to look at offense more than defense. Stewart has always had good guards and a point center (Dolson) or point forward (Tuck) on her teams, so she has been less of the driver of offensive flow than either Maya or Diana. But on defense Stewart has been more central to the Uconn scheme's than either Diana or Maya. She isn't as vocal as either of them were, and her body type doesn't scream power like Maya's does or like Diana does for a guard, but there was an interesting comment during the MsSt game that Stewart is reportedly one of the strongest players on the team - her length just disguises it.

But I have watched stewart on the non NT USA basketball teams, in the HS all star games, and throughout her uconn career, and her killer instinct is fully developed - she sometimes defers to teammates at the start of games, she doesn't demand immediate focus, but when it is time to win, or when her team is struggling she takes over usually on both ends. Breanna after her freshman regular season just hasn't had any close games except for the Stanford loss - it is hard to show what kind of killer instinct you have, when the opponents are generally DOA - but part of that is what happened in the first 1:14 on Saturday - 5 pts and two rebounds, enough to outscore MsSt through the first 10 minutes!

 

[PalPa]

Yes -- "beyond category" but as you say Maya had a better frosh year. In fact in Maya's frosh and sr years, do you think it could be argued if she had what Stewie had - a very good sharp-shooting KML, an upperclassmen in Farris and Dolson that there would have been a better chance Amazing Maya would have had 4 titles under her belt?

Some of Stewie's other games in Final Four's and Finals' weren't as good as for example Amazing Maya's great senior year game vs ND in which UCONN went down. Yet we give Stewie "the nod" for winning 4 titles and being FF MVP but we know at least her jr year that should have been MoJeff. And those 4 titles, is Stewie's teammates performed like Maya's teammates her sr year, the same fate would have probably happened. IMO for example Maya was fine playing center at times her sr year. She just needed help is similar to what Stewie would need.

Stewie had to "get pulled" in her frosh year because some games she was so bad. When did THAT ever happen to Amazing Maya?

So if Stewie "lays an egg" vs Baylor, why should we automatically proclaim she is GOAT over Maya?

I have read a number of posts saying DT or Maya were better because Stewie has a better supporting cast. In my opinion Stewies supporting cast should be an argument in her favor and not against her. I can't imagine the fantastic numbers she would have both offensively and defensively if she was the "go to" player instead of just the best player. How many blocks would she have if MO wasn't cutting off the drivers, how many points if she wasn;t dishing off to MO or Morgan near the rim? I think Stewie is the greatest because of the team she in on.

 

[baggerbob]

A question that was asked of Kelly after the final four. Kelly, how much was Breanna's play maybe also a catalyst for what you guys were able to do after the Big East Tournament, the change that she made or the change in her, and how much did that change you guys?
KELLY FARIS: That changed us a ton. I don't think people understand how much we needed her to get to this point.
If we didn't have her, we wouldn't be here. And we all know that, and I hope she knows that. If she didn't turn it around
and step up like she has--I mean, we have a freshman that's the MVP of the national championship game. And that
doesn't happen anywhere but here. And she deserves it. And kind of, again, I'm glad she's on our side. I wouldn't want
to be playing against her. That was the transcript of the 2013 final four.