OT: Brady and his offensive line

[upstater]

I've been saying for many years now that Brady has made his offensive lines look good with his quick release and command of the pocket. And now a line that almost got Jameis Winston killed is considered one of the top 5 in the NFL: Four games, five sacks: Bucs offensive line is off to 'outstanding' start

No surprise. The Patriots until the last 2 years never devoted much in terms of resources to the OL, as they frequently went with undrafted players, or the FA scrapheap, or when it comes to Stephen Neal, a wrestler who never played college football at all. The common denominator was Brady and the OL coach Dante Scarnecchia.

Then last year happened. 3 of the starting 5 OL went on IR, the backup LT retired, and the RG tore his meniscus and played through it. One healthy starting lineman all year. The LT wasn't even in football the previous year as no one picked him up, but then he (Marshall Newhouse) got a call and found himself as the starter protecting Brady's blindside. He is now back out of football. No wonder Brady was throwing the ball away 25% of the time last year.

As I wrote last year, I didn't think Brady had lost it last year. He was hampered by everything going wrong including elbow tendonitis for him ---> OT: - Did the Patriots make a mistake letting Jimmy G go?

Yesterday we saw him whipping the ball around in a familiar way. He's also going deep a lot which we haven't seen with him since Randy Moss was with the Patriots and before that Deion Branch.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I've been saying for many years now that Brady has made his offensive lines look good with his quick release and command of the pocket. And now a line that almost got Jameis Winston killed is considered one of the top 5 in the NFL: Four games, five sacks: Bucs offensive line is off to 'outstanding' start

No surprise. The Patriots until the last 2 years never devoted much in terms of resources to the OL, as they frequently went with undrafted players, or the FA scrapheap, or when it comes to Stephen Neal, a wrestler who never played college football at all. The common denominator was Brady and the OL coach Dante Scarnecchia.

Then last year happened. 3 of the starting 5 OL went on IR, the backup LT retired, and the RG tore his meniscus and played through it. One healthy starting lineman all year. The LT wasn't even in football the previous year as no one picked him up, but then he (Marshall Newhouse) got a call and found himself as the starter protecting Brady's blindside. He is now back out of football. No wonder Brady was throwing the ball away 25% of the time last year.

As I wrote last year, I didn't think Brady had lost it last year. He was hampered by everything going wrong including elbow tendonitis for him ---> - Did the Patriots make a mistake letting Jimmy G go?

Yesterday we saw him whipping the ball around in a familiar way. He's also going deep a lot which we haven't seen with him since Randy Moss was with the Patriots and before that Deion Branch.

I don't know about all of that. The Patriots have developed good OL. Solder and Mankins, Thuney, and even Vollmer were all very good. Mason is good, Andrews is good. The issue is that Cannon opted out, then injuries and covid hit. Last week they played with two starters, one out of position and third stringer at RT. This week slightly better, but not much. Early in the year the line looked good.

That said, Cam is holding the ball way, way, way too long. And he is locking onto a receiver and isn't scanning the field to see who is open. If the primary isn't open he's not making that quick decision to either dump it to a RB, scramble to buy time or tuck and run. He should have about 2.5 seconds to make one of those 3 choices. Instead he stands there. When you get sacked 5-6 seconds in, that is on you and the receivers, not the OL.

Does Brady make an OL look good? He does now. He sure didn't in 2019. He did throw it away over and over again. But I think it is safe to say Cam makes the OL look awful, particularly this patchwork one.

I'm most concerned about the defense right now. Not stopping anything. Not tackling. Awful.

 

[Palatine]

I watched some of the Raidr/Buc game. Brady had hours to throw without anyone coming near him. Maybe Winston made the line suck.

With no pass rush, Raiders were pushovers for Tom Brady, Buccaneers

At 43 years old, Tom Brady certainly hasn’t gotten any faster with time. Against the Raiders, it didn’t matter. Brady felt almost no pressure from the Raiders’ defensive front on Sunday as he completed 33 of 45

entertainment--news.com

 

[upstater]

I don't know about all of that. The Patriots have developed good OL. Solder and Mankins, Thuney, and even Vollmer were all very good. Mason is good, Andrews is good. The issue is that Cannon opted out, then injuries and covid hit. Last week they played with two starters, one out of position and third stringer at RT. This week slightly better, but not much. Early in the year the line looked good.

That said, Cam is holding the ball way, way, way too long. And he is locking onto a receiver and isn't scanning the field to see who is open. If the primary isn't open he's not making that quick decision to either dump it to a RB, scramble to buy time or tuck and run. He should have about 2.5 seconds to make one of those 3 choices. Instead he stands there. When you get sacked 5-6 seconds in, that is on you and the receivers, not the OL.

Does Brady make an OL look good? He does now. He sure didn't in 2019. He did throw it away over and over again. But I think it is safe to say Cam makes the OL look awful, particularly this patchwork one.

I'm most concerned about the defense right now. Not stopping anything. Not tackling. Awful.

They've DEVELOPED good OL. No doubt. That's why I credited Scarnecchia. But what I wrote was that they didn't expend resources like top FA dollars for good FAs nor many draft picks on their OL. Vollmer, Solder, Mankins and Light were the 4 premium picks in the first 3 rounds over 18 years. That's the lowest amount in the entire NFL. And Solder and Mankins were not very good outside New England.

Only in the last 2 year have they started devoting draft picks to the position with Wynn. Andrews is obviously a UDFA, undrafted.

Anyway, I was referring to Brady's time with the Patriots and how so many of the lineman were scrap heap pickups. Connolly, Neal, Andruzzi, Koppen, Stork, Andrews, Trent Brown, Donald Thomas, etc. It was plug and play, and these guys did well simply because their job was made so much easier by Scar and Brady.

 

[upstater]

I watched some of the Raidr/Buc game. Brady had hours to throw without anyone coming near him. Maybe Winston made the line suck.

With no pass rush, Raiders were pushovers for Tom Brady, Buccaneers

At 43 years old, Tom Brady certainly hasn’t gotten any faster with time. Against the Raiders, it didn’t matter. Brady felt almost no pressure from the Raiders’ defensive front on Sunday as he completed 33 of 45

entertainment--news.com

That could be!

But--it's strange how a guy like Solder lands a huge huge contract with the Giants--then he sucks.

Trent Brown looks fantastic in New England. Then he lands a huge huge contract and-- he sucks. Hmmmmmm.

Mankins with the Bucs. He sucked.

Let this be a lesson: beware when you give a big FA contract to an OL playing in front of Brady.

 

[HuskyHawk]

They've DEVELOPED good OL. No doubt. That's why I credited Scarnecchia. But what I wrote was that they didn't expend resources like top FA dollars for good FAs nor many draft picks on their OL. Vollmer, Solder, Mankins and Light were the 4 premium picks in the first 3 rounds over 18 years. That's the lowest amount in the entire NFL. And Solder and Mankins were not very good outside New England.

Only in the last 2 year have they started devoting draft picks to the position with Wynn. Andrews is obviously a UDFA, undrafted.

Anyway, I was referring to Brady's time with the Patriots and how so many of the lineman were scrap heap pickups. Connolly, Neal, Andruzzi, Koppen, Stork, Andrews, Trent Brown, Donald Thomas, etc. It was plug and play, and these guys did well simply because their job was made so much easier by Scar and Brady.

I just think they are fantastic at identifying late round and undrafted OL. They seem to have done it again with Onwenu. Certainly Scar played a role in that. The guy is an OL legend. Meanwhile they are terrible at drafting WR and RB even when they spend high picks on them.

It is going to be very interesting to see what happens at the trade deadline. Seems they will have to be sellers. They are missing their 3rd round pick this year. Lots of cap space next year, and they desperately need WR, LB and DL. Some speed at RB would be nice too. And QB remains up for grabs.

 

[auror]

Tampa added a 1st round tackle who many graded as the best in the class and worthy of a top 5 pick, lol. That helps. And otherwise, they have complete continuity on the line from last year, which is very important, especially in this truncated offseason season. No injuries, no opt-outs, and no one left in free agency.

I do agree that Brady is no doubt one of the best all time at navigating the pocket. Even being worse at it than he used to be (less mobile), he still makes the line look good. That Athletic article is from a few weeks back, from before the Bears game. When the line gets beat up, that's when he's bad, and the Bears showed it. Akeem Hicks dominated them up the middle. His play helps the line, and the line's play helps him.

 

[uconngb]

I don't know about all of that. The Patriots have developed good OL. Solder and Mankins, Thuney, and even Vollmer were all very good. Mason is good, Andrews is good. The issue is that Cannon opted out, then injuries and covid hit. Last week they played with two starters, one out of position and third stringer at RT. This week slightly better, but not much. Early in the year the line looked good.

That said, Cam is holding the ball way, way, way too long. And he is locking onto a receiver and isn't scanning the field to see who is open. If the primary isn't open he's not making that quick decision to either dump it to a RB, scramble to buy time or tuck and run. He should have about 2.5 seconds to make one of those 3 choices. Instead he stands there. When you get sacked 5-6 seconds in, that is on you and the receivers, not the OL.

Does Brady make an OL look good? He does now. He sure didn't in 2019. He did throw it away over and over again. But I think it is safe to say Cam makes the OL look awful, particularly this patchwork one.

I'm most concerned about the defense right now. Not stopping anything. Not tackling. Awful.

This. It's like the guy has never played QB before. Every QB in the NFL knows you only have so much time, I don't care how good your OL is. He holds the ball way too long and gets way too locked in. Teams have figured out, you keep him in the pocket and turn him into a passer and he's awful. At this point, let's see what Stidham has got with time to prepare. Cam is definitely not the future.

 

[HuskyHawk]

That could be!

But--it's strange how a guy like Solder lands a huge huge contract with the Giants--then he sucks.

Trent Brown looks fantastic in New England. Then he lands a huge huge contract and-- he sucks. Hmmmmmm.

Mankins with the Bucs. He sucked.

Let this be a lesson: beware when you give a big FA contract to an OL playing in front of Brady.

Don't give big FA contracts to OL. Period. It's not worth it. Especially since the blocking schemes may be different. I expect that the Pats focus in FA will be on defense.

 

[upstater]

Tampa added a 1st round tackle who many graded as the best in the class and worthy of a top 5 pick, lol. That helps. And otherwise, they have complete continuity on the line from last year, which is very important, especially in this truncated offseason season. No injuries, no opt-outs, and no one left in free agency.

I do agree that Brady is no doubt one of the best all time at navigating the pocket. Even being worse at it than he used to be (less mobile), he still makes the line look good. That Athletic article is from a few weeks back, from before the Bears game. When the line gets beat up, that's when he's bad, and the Bears showed it. Akeem Hicks dominated them up the middle. His play helps the line, and the line's play helps him.

They are still grading high though on Pfft (I admit to not really liking the statheads at Pfft).

 

[upstater]

I just think they are fantastic at identifying late round and undrafted OL. They seem to have done it again with Onwenu. Certainly Scar played a role in that. The guy is an OL legend. Meanwhile they are terrible at drafting WR and RB even when they spend high picks on them.

It is going to be very interesting to see what happens at the trade deadline. Seems they will have to be sellers. They are missing their 3rd round pick this year. Lots of cap space next year, and they desperately need WR, LB and DL. Some speed at RB would be nice too. And QB remains up for grabs.

They have found a lot of good DBs--BUT they expend an incredible amount of draft picks at that position. And they have a lot of busts. When it comes to WR? They have spent a total of 8 picks over 20 years at that position. It's mind-boggling how little they spend. I just looked at the Steelers. They have spent 17 picks over the same period. Many of them premium picks. And they've had their share of busts too.

The Patriots have only succeeded in finding Edelman, Deion Branch, David Givens (and really Mitchell who was stellar 2nd half of rookie year and playoffs before his career ending injury). One wonders if they would have found four more if only they had drafted as many as the Steelers.

 

[upstater]

I just think they are fantastic at identifying late round and undrafted OL. They seem to have done it again with Onwenu. Certainly Scar played a role in that. The guy is an OL legend. Meanwhile they are terrible at drafting WR and RB even when they spend high picks on them.

It is going to be very interesting to see what happens at the trade deadline. Seems they will have to be sellers. They are missing their 3rd round pick this year. Lots of cap space next year, and they desperately need WR, LB and DL. Some speed at RB would be nice too. And QB remains up for grabs.

I think Belichick may have turned the corner in how he envisions his defense playing.

We know the prototype LB in Belichick's 3-4 2-gap system. They need to be able to stuff the run. It's why he always looked for those 250+ pound guys like Hightower, Vrabel, Ninkovich, Van Noy, etc. And his safeties have not only played like cornerbacks, but he has converted cornerbacks into safeties. He's jettisoned prototype strong safeties like Milloy, and lighter OLB/DE like Greg Spires. That's been the way BB has operated over 20 years.

Then you look at this draft and you see him taking a 225 pound LB like Uche, or a prototype big SS like Dugger. Both with outstanding speed. I really wonder if BB is now going to move to a new defense with these picks. After watching Bentley diagnose a play right, get into perfect position, I saw the RB catch a flare and run right past Bentley like he was stuck in quicksand. Yeesh.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Brady is still Brady. He isn't what he was 10 years ago, but he is still a top 10 QB. The Pats have no talent at WR; which is the reason he fell off last year. It is also the reason Cam will struggle this year. Drafting and developing WR talent is Belichick's kryptonite.

 

[upstater]

Brady is still Brady. He isn't what he was 10 years ago, but he is still a top 10 QB. The Pats have no talent at WR; which is the reason he fell off last year. It is also the reason Cam will struggle this year. Drafting and developing WR talent is Belichick's kryptonite.

But... Brady did well with those WRs the previous year (2018). Look at the playoffs. All he had was Edelman, Burkhead and James White. Gronk stayed in and never went out for passes because he was one legged. Then the next year came and 4/5ths of the OL was gone. Worse, they weren't replaced by backups, but by guys who hadn't played football in over a year.

About the WRs, the Patriots have probably developed the fewest of them in pro ball, with only 4 successes over 20 years, and one of those guys suffered a career ending injury before his 2nd year in the league. BUT--here's the big takeaway--they only drafted 8 guys. Over 20 years. Two became stars, one was a really good #2 who scored a big contract and left after 4 years, and one guy was a big reason they won the Super Bowl against the Falcons. If only they spent more draft picks like other teams, who's to say they couldn't have found 4 more?

 

[MilliniumPrince]

But... Brady did well with those WRs the previous year (2018). Look at the playoffs. All he had was Edelman, Burkhead and James White. Gronk stayed in and never went out for passes because he was one legged. Then the next year came and 4/5ths of the OL was gone. Worse, they weren't replaced by backups, but by guys who hadn't played football in over a year.

About the WRs, the Patriots have probably developed the fewest of them in pro ball, with only 4 successes over 20 years, and one of those guys suffered a career ending injury before his 2nd year in the league. BUT--here's the big takeaway--they only drafted 8 guys. Over 20 years. Two became stars, one was a really good #2 who scored a big contract and left after 4 years, and one guy was a big reason they won the Super Bowl against the Falcons. If only they spent more draft picks like other teams, who's to say they couldn't have found 4 more?

Football players age in dog years after a certain point. Everyone other than Edleman's mom will tell you he wasn't the same in 2019.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

Faced old man Brady in fantasy this week and I was absolutely destroying the other guy until TB12 started. Matters were made worse by me having Ronald Jones II and Tommy throws for 400 yds and I only got 34 yards (and mercifully a TD) from Jones

 

[upstater]

Football players age in dog years after a certain point. Everyone other than Edleman's mom will tell you he wasn't the same in 2019.

It could be they get injured more. He was injured last year with broken ribs. He's injured this year with a bum knee.

On any other team, Edelman would've sat last year, and would be sitting this year. The Patriots had to use him because they had no one else. One could see though with all his drops, he was not the same. The ribs really hurt him. He still caught 100 catches though--which is a lot. He shouldn't be out there with his knee this year. He can't plant.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I think Belichick may have turned the corner in how he envisions his defense playing.

We know the prototype LB in Belichick's 3-4 2-gap system. They need to be able to stuff the run. It's why he always looked for those 250+ pound guys like Hightower, Vrabel, Ninkovich, Van Noy, etc. And his safeties have not only played like cornerbacks, but he has converted cornerbacks into safeties. He's jettisoned prototype strong safeties like Milloy, and lighter OLB/DE like Greg Spires. That's been the way BB has operated over 20 years.

Then you look at this draft and you see him taking a 225 pound LB like Uche, or a prototype big SS like Dugger. Both with outstanding speed. I really wonder if BB is now going to move to a new defense with these picks. After watching Bentley diagnose a play right, get into perfect position, I saw the RB catch a flare and run right past Bentley like he was stuck in quicksand. Yeesh.

Agreed. He knows that speed kills. Look at the way Lindsay beat our guys to the outside over and over. Usche is hurt. We really need that speed. I think Dugger will end up being a superb player that can handle guys like Kittle.

This is why I was pissed he kept playing Izzo at TE. Finally Keene got in. One catch, but I watched him get open and create matchup problems. We desper need a RB who can scare the D with speed. All the Pats guys are about the same, average.

 

[Adios]

Belichick's been exposed. He can barely draft. I mean, Brady was an accident waiting to happen. Belichick's strength is defense.

 

[auror]

Belichick's been exposed. He can barely draft. I mean, Brady was an accident waiting to happen. Belichick's strength is defense.

Lol.

 

[upstater]

Belichick's been exposed. He can barely draft. I mean, Brady was an accident waiting to happen. Belichick's strength is defense.

20 years of dominance drafting at #28-32, and now he's been exposed! He needed to continue drafting well for at least another 10 years to prove himself.

 

[HuskyHawk]

20 years of dominance drafting at #28-32, and now he's been exposed! He needed to continue drafting well for at least another 10 years to prove himself.

It would help if the league didn't keep taking away picks for nonsense like deflategate, and now for the filming thing in this coming draft.

He does need to do better, and I think this last draft was a good one.

 

[Deepster]

I have a friend who floated a interesting theory about this week. Clearly, there's virtually no chance it's true, but I thought it was interesting.

Basically, Belechick had everything set for the post-Brady Patriots world. Jimmy G carries a clipboard, learns for 2-3 years and takes over. Brady end arounds him, goes to Kraft and gets Jimmy G shipped out of town.

Last week was Belechick laying down and letting Jimmy G run rampant over them to look at Kraft and shrug for his decision.

Again, it's far fetched.....but interesting that the Patriots dynasty really seems to have hinged and taken the route it's on because of that trade.

 

[Waquoit]

I have a friend who floated a interesting theory about this week. Clearly, there's virtually no chance it's true, but I thought it was interesting.

Basically, Belechick had everything set for the post-Brady Patriots world. Jimmy G carries a clipboard, learns for 2-3 years and takes over. Brady end arounds him, goes to Kraft and gets Jimmy G shipped out of town.

I don't know if it's all that far-fetched, the question is why didn't Kraft tell Brady to pound sand? He always let BB do what he wanted to do before. I think it's because Kraft felt remorse for how he left Brady all alone to fend for himself during Deflategate. Kraft had called in all his markers early in that one to protect Belichick.

 

[upstater]

I have a friend who floated a interesting theory about this week. Clearly, there's virtually no chance it's true, but I thought it was interesting.

Basically, Belechick had everything set for the post-Brady Patriots world. Jimmy G carries a clipboard, learns for 2-3 years and takes over. Brady end arounds him, goes to Kraft and gets Jimmy G shipped out of town.

Last week was Belechick laying down and letting Jimmy G run rampant over them to look at Kraft and shrug for his decision.

Again, it's far fetched.....but interesting that the Patriots dynasty really seems to have hinged and taken the route it's on because of that trade.

I'm not buying your theory. John Lynch is on record as calling Belichick and asking him if he'd be interested in trading Brady to the 49ers. He said that Belichick audibly laughed at him, and told him it's not happening. After he said no, they talked about eventually trading Jimmy G. to the 49ers. So this wasn't a matter of BB taking the Brady trade proposal to Kraft and then returning to Lynch with the verdict, but instead it was BB instantly laughing at the idea.

Mike Reiss and Tom Curran have the more plausible story, which is that Belichick wanted to pay Jimmy G. a bundle to sit for a year or two behind Brady after signing a new contract. When Jimmy G. turned him down, that's when the Patriots traded Jimmy G. The plan before that was for Jimmy G. to take over in 2019 or 2020.

Personally, I am hoping the Patriots can find a better QB than Jimmy G., who throws too many picks, and he's very very fragile. It's crazy to me that good QBs like Ryan Tannehill or Tedy Bridgewater are sometimes available in the FA market, but I would prefer both of those guys to Jimmy G., for the 2 reasons I mentioned.