Both Jims set to move into 3rd and 4th places this season

[jibsey]

The most important statistic between JC and JB is 3 National Championships to 1. God I hate Syracuse.

For some reason my hatred of Pitt exceeds the Cuse, thinking of checking with an analyst as to why I don't dislike Boeheim.

 

[EricLA]

congrats to both. really great coaches for sure

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

did u read the thread? just idle chatter about whether JC will pass bob knight if he stays for another season after this one. (doomed)

NaughtybyNapier accurately brought up the point that JC will not get credit for the 3 first BE games. I/we kind of jumped to the conclusion that they would therefore need 3 more wins than I/we previously thought in order to bring JC past BK. My latest post was to clarify that we don't have to win those additional 3 games. So JC still has to get 48 wins - but indeed he will have 3 fewer opportunities to get those 48 wins.

Clarifier - please feel eminently free to skip.

Uconndoit,

Yes, this a fair summation, lol. I bumped it up to 51 in practical terms (knowing JC himself only needs 48) because it's easier to conceptualize, and it makes sense since we will be solid favorites in all those games (and therefore doomed). For such an idle, but fun, exercise as this, it just makes it easier to think about: that the team will have to win closer to 28 - 30 games this year for JC to sail past Knight next year. I didn't jump to a conclusion, I just tried to present another way to think about his prospects...a point which might be lost on an un-careful peruser of this thread (not you).

My overall point is that it's not a foregone conclusion that JC moves past Knight in '12-'13, nor, given the fact that retirement is at least a possibility year to year now, ever, really. I hope he does.

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

Speaking of Knight, I'm struck by some, perhaps superficial, similarities between his accomplishments and those of JC.

Namely:

BK - 3 NCs, 5 FF, 8 Elite Eights...1 NIT Championship
JC - 3 NCs, 4 FF, 9 Elite Eights...1 NIT Championship

Furthermore, like JC, Knight's championships are spread out over about a dozen years and essentially each won by a different roster. Knight had great success early (which makes sense, given Indiana's stature as a program), going to a FF and another Elite 8 in his first four years.

He then won a NC with a five-year / four-season gap till the next one, and another five-year / four-season gap before his third. (Calhoun had a five-year / four-season gap between #1 and #2, then a seven-year, six-season gap before #3.)

Knight had a poorer record (win-loss %) in the Sweet Sixteen, but a better one in the Elite Eight. And both fiery bastards were perfect in their three championship game appearances apiece.

Both coaches seemed to build teams for deeper runs every couple of years, mixing in occasional NIT appearances or worse in the midst of all the success. (Much different than, say, K or Roy or Wooden.)

They'll finish with similar career win totals as well.

(continued below)

 

[NaughtybyNapier]

The argument for JC as GOAT seems to me to rest on two propositions, which inter-relate.

First, that he is the greatest "program builder" of all-time - that he scrapped, and out-worked, and out-hustled, and out-coached to push a former non-entity to the highest level of college basketball, whose achievements now rival those of the closed coterie of the sport's traditional royalty (yay, I almost avoided the term "blue blood."). On this view, we can emphasize some of the particular strengths of his legacy ("doing more with less," i.e., winning with lesser recruits and developing the best NBA talent) and explain away some of the inevitable shortcomings that appear on his resume (inconsistency from year to year; his relatively high career loss total - he built winners at NE and UConn, but you have to break eggs to make an omelet; etc.)

Second, that his accomplishments in the tournament - having come in the "modern" 64-team tournament era - deserve somewhat greater weight than Rupp's or Wooden's. This is not to say that 3 "modern" NCs at Cowtown U (or 4 at Tobacco Road U) are better than 10 "classic" NCs, but just that the comparison between eras is not exactly apples to apples.

Just my 10 cents, as to the admittedly tenuous case for JC as GOAT. (Nor, obviously, did I offer the Hoosier case for BK, which I imagine would emphasize things like "innovator," coaching lineage (helped spawn another GOAT candidate in K), undefeated season, Calhoun-level badass, etc.)

 

[uconndoit]

Clarifier - please feel eminently free to skip.

Uconndoit,

Yes, this a fair summation, lol. I bumped it up to 51 in practical terms (knowing JC himself only needs 48) because it's easier to conceptualize, and it makes sense since we will be solid favorites in all those games (and therefore doomed). For such an idle, but fun, exercise as this, it just makes it easier to think about: that the team will have to win closer to 28 - 30 games this year for JC to sail past Knight next year. I didn't jump to a conclusion, I just tried to present another way to think about his prospects...a point which might be lost on an un-careful peruser of this thread (not you).

My overall point is that it's not a foregone conclusion that JC moves past Knight in '12-'13, nor, given the fact that retirement is at least a possibility year to year now, ever, really. I hope he does.

Yeah, I think it was just an oversight/jump on my part.