Boeheim calls out Ken Pom | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Boeheim calls out Ken Pom

Yeah, so an old man gets some details wrong but his underlying point is correct -- you can't rank individual defensive performance by any other means than a coach grading from a game tape knowing what the player was supposed to be doing on any particular play. In fact, in a team sport, even grading any offensive or rebounding performance just from numbers doesn't tell you much. For all we know Vital is an amazing rebounding guard compared to others because he's told to chase the ball, and not worry about boxing out his opponent or getting out on the break, while others have other jobs.
 
businesslawyer said:
Yeah, so an old man gets some details wrong but his underlying point is correct -- you can't rank individual defensive performance by any other means than a coach grading from a game tape knowing what the player was supposed to be doing on any particular play. In fact, in a team sport, even grading any offensive or rebounding performance just from numbers doesn't tell you much. For all we know Vital is an amazing rebounding guard compared to others because he's told to chase the ball, and not worry about boxing out his opponent or getting out on the break, while others have other jobs.
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Yeah there are differences with sports but coaches generally know what players were supposed to be doing. Analytics can help quantify them though.

In football, a lineman choosing to double inside or outside on a DLineman can affect throwing lanes for a QB possibly keeping a primary target who was open from being thrown the ball.
For UConn basketball I'd say similar things with Polley and his longtime low rebounding numbers. Coaches could obviously read a box score and look at film and Polley continued to play consistent minutes and continue to have low rebounding numbers. I tend to think Hurley had other plans for him rather than crashing boards. Of course Polley has the career rebounding game of his life and completely plays in the lane for a game right before blowing out his ACL.
 
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businesslawyer said:
Yeah, so an old man gets some details wrong but his underlying point is correct -- you can't rank individual defensive performance by any other means than a coach grading from a game tape knowing what the player was supposed to be doing on any particular play.
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Except that KenPom doesn't produce that metric. The article he was referring to ranked Buddy as being in the 25th percentile of defenders. So the details he got wrong were both author and the content. His point was valid, it but it was, essentially, a straw man argument.
 
CL82 said:
Except that KenPom doesn't produce that metric. The article he was referring to ranked Buddy as being in the 25th percentile of defenders. So the details he got wrong were both author and the content. His point was valid, it but it was, essentially, a straw man argument.
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Yeah it's more about how he just randomly insulted the wrong person. Talking about how Ken must be rich while implying he was publishing inaccurate stuff, etc.

He didn't have to name anyone. Could have just said he saw some stats and then ranted. But he just didn't give a shit about potentially being wrong because he thinks he's above reproach about basketball related topics.
 
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businesslawyer said:
Yeah, so an old man gets some details wrong but his underlying point is correct -- you can't rank individual defensive performance by any other means than a coach grading from a game tape knowing what the player was supposed to be doing on any particular play. In fact, in a team sport, even grading any offensive or rebounding performance just from numbers doesn't tell you much. For all we know Vital is an amazing rebounding guard compared to others because he's told to chase the ball, and not worry about boxing out his opponent or getting out on the break, while others have other jobs.
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Sure you can. It's simple statistics. If +/- is a valid stat, then you can extrapolate that to offense / defense with the player in the game or not. It's certainly not as simple as that, and nobody on earth would claim it is, but there is nothing invalid about it.

Especially when you can average it over many games and remove any small sample size oddities. At the end of a season, if a player with significant playing time has a very bad +/- defensively, I'd argue there is at least some validity to it.

If the kind of stat he's talking about (and it appears that is the case) was some kind of Pro Football Focus-esque video review stat, then it's absolutely valid, especially over a long period of time. And doubly so if the results are relative to average performance.
 
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Deadrody said:
Sure you can. It's simple statistics. If +/- is a valid stat, then you can extrapolate that to offense / defense with the player in the game or not. It's certainly not as simple as that, and nobody on earth would claim it is, but there is nothing invalid about it.

Especially when you can average it over many games and remove any small sample size oddities. At the end of a season, if a player with significant playing time has a very bad +/- defensively, I'd argue there is at least some validity to it.

If the kind of stat he's talking about (and it appears that is the case) was some kind of Pro Football Focus-esque video review stat, then it's absolutely valid, especially over a long period of time. And doubly so if the results are relative to average performance.
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Actually, I'm a strong believer in +/- over the course of a season, where everyone on the floor proportionately bears the benefits or burdens of the team's performance. Hence, my continuing and unwavering belief that UConn was much better in 11-12 relying on AO than on Drummond, and the biggest mistake we made was throwing Drummond on the floor and telling everyone else we had to work around his strengths and weaknesses.

My understanding is the system Boeheim was trying to criticize was where based on the position of the defender and the offensive players doing the shooting/scoring, you judge the particular defender without knowing what his instructions were. I could be wrong in fact, but I still think my logic holds up.
 
Mokum said:
Bohiem needs to be put out to pasture. I don’t get why any kid would want to play for this whiny nose picking dufuss.
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With all due respect, Shut your FILTHY MOUTH!! The man is a national treasure and I hope he remains their coach for at least two more decades!

I think they show him the door after next season.
 
lot of Cuse fans are upset that Mike Hopkins took them Stewart from them and now are happy he is going to get fired at UW most likely
 
Waquoit said:
Ken Pom is rubbish, though
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Will you ever pull that 6 year old bug out of your keyster? Wow.

KenPom is a great tool, until someone else comes up with a better one. Have one? All yours. If not, pipe down.
 
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businesslawyer said:
Actually, I'm a strong believer in +/- over the course of a season, where everyone on the floor proportionately bears the benefits or burdens of the team's performance. Hence, my continuing and unwavering belief that UConn was much better in 11-12 relying on AO than on Drummond, and the biggest mistake we made was throwing Drummond on the floor and telling everyone else we had to work around his strengths and weaknesses.

My understanding is the system Boeheim was trying to criticize was where based on the position of the defender and the offensive players doing the shooting/scoring, you judge the particular defender without knowing what his instructions were. I could be wrong in fact, but I still think my logic holds up.
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If memory serves, I felt that UConn team played better with Drummond at the 5 and Roscoe at the 4.

Drummond and Oriahki at the 4/5 didn't work.
 
pepband99 said:
Will you ever pull that 6 year old bug out of your keyster? Wow.

KenPom is a great tool, until someone else comes up with a better one. Have one? All yours. If not, pipe down.
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A great tool for what? Fun with numbers?
 
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