Blauds: UConn/Cincy Leaning Towards C7

[DW4UCONN]

It amazes me that the same group of people who don't want to add UMASS to the Big East because they don't want the recruiting competition are simultaneously advocating putting the football program in CUSA or the MAC or going indy which would absolutely destroy football recruiting far worse than upgrading UMASS would. Instead of upgrading UMASS to our level you would rather downgrade football to UMASS's level. That make no sense at all, it is in fact insanity.

You have me here by the balls. Although I never "advocated" CUSA or the MAC, I did suggest Uconn could sustain itself at that level as has NIU. I have always however advocated either the MWC or the NBE for FB only. Being in a conference with UMASS would be a mistake.

 

[metsfan2323]

Already acknowledged this. What is to say Cincy and USF don't regress in the NBE? I don't see how their past experience in CUSA supports the argument that they can sustain their programs in the NBE. The BE rejuvenated Cincy and made USF.

I can just as easily say how do you know Gtown and Nova won't fall apart in their new league. The Big East made both of them. It's why we should keep the Big East name with the football schools.

 

[upstater]

Already acknowledged this. What is to say Cincy and USF don't regress in the NBE? I don't see how their past experience in CUSA supports the argument that they can sustain their programs in the NBE. The BE rejuvenated Cincy and made USF.

Cincy has been good for a very long time. Huggy had that program rockin'. USF has no history to speak of. UCF beat UConn last year.

 

[RS9999X]

I just really think certain schools that are now invited or rumored to be actually diminish the value. I don't have a problem with having a conference of 8 or 9 teams, if we can't find members that add any real value. Tulsa, Tulane, ECU, etc. just add so little.

That's it. Going with the 8 plus Navy and leaving Tulsa and ECU and Tulane completely on the side and retaining the C7 would seem much stronger in my eyes.

I can appreciate the C7s point of view: if one more team leaves (UConn) they can add Butler, Dayton and Xavier and effectively replace Cincy, Temple and Memphis and no one cares about UCF, USF, SMU and Houston. They would rather do home and away with better teams within the C10.

 

[UConnDan97]

That's it. Going with the 8 plus Navy and leaving Tulsa and ECU and Tulane completely on the side and retaining the C7 would seem much stronger in my eyes.

This is what I don't understand. There seems to be some miscommunication between some of the posters on this board and the Big East office. Do you all realize that ECU and Tulane are already in the Big East??? This isn't a choice. We invited. They accepted. It's done. It's over.

I don't know if it's due to some people not fully progressing through the various stages of grief, but I sure hope that's what it is....

EDIT: I also forgot to comment on your thought process that has the C7 coming back to us if we have the right blend of non-AQ football teams. Picture Coach Pitino saying the following things about the C7:

 

[DW4UCONN]

Cincy has been good for a very long time. Huggy had that program rockin'. USF has no history to speak of. UCF beat UConn last year.

Huggins sure did but then they passed out along with him. They needed the BE to come back to their glory days. As for UCF??? Uconn was their one and only OOC win against a quality opponent. Uconn didn't exactly play well in that game either. They went out in the first round of the NIT. A win over Uconn in 2011-12 is not a good argument to make.

 

[alexd]

Bull. UCF beat us in the recent past. When has DePaul beaten us.

People are so biased on this, they are not even evaluating things properly. USF and Cincy beat the top of the CYO7 yestedray.

Depaul beat us during the 2006/07 season.

 

[upstater]

Depaul beat us during the 2006/07 season.

Thanks! Can't remember that one. UCF was last year. The point stands, the bottom of both leagues are bad. Like I said, I'll miss playing G'town, and have nostalgia for St. John's, but really can care less about the rest.

 

[upstater]

Huggins sure did but then they passed out along with him. They needed the BE to come back to their glory days. As for UCF??? Uconn was their one and only OOC win against a quality opponent. Uconn didn't exactly play well in that game either. They went out in the first round of the NIT. A win over Uconn in 2011-12 is not a good argument to make.

Huggins actually coached Cincy IN the Big East, so how did they need to BE when Huggins was still the coach when they joined?

 

[RS9999X]

average RPI of C7 - 73
average RPI of incoming CUSA7 - 131

speaks for itself. Includes Tulsa in the cusa-7

 

[UConnDan97]

average RPI of C7 - 73
average RPI of incoming CUSA7 - 131

speaks for itself. Includes Tulsa in the cusa-7

RPI's are calculated not only by wins and losses, but by strength of schedule. And right now, the C7 plays against UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, Notre Dame, and Cincy. So no.....it doesn't speak for itself....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratings_Percentage_Index

 

[DW4UCONN]

Huggins actually coached Cincy IN the Big East, so how did they need to BE when Huggins was still the coach when they joined?

Huggins actually was let go prior to their inaugural season in the BE. However, I am still wrong as they were pretty darned good in CUSA per reading up in ESPN. My bad. Their best years were however in the 90's ... I think.

 

[UConnDan97]

Huggins actually was let go prior to their inaugural season in the BE. However, I am still wrong as they were pretty darned good in CUSA per reading up in ESPN. My bad. Their best years were however in the 90's ... I think.

I think their best years were probably the mid to late 90's, when they had Fortson and Kenyon Martin. But keep in mind that from 1991 to 2002, they did not have a season where they won less than 22 games. That's ridiculously good. From 1991 to 2005, they didn't miss an NCAA tourney. Not one.

Cincy was/is a really good bball program, and I think that Cronin finally has them back to playing where Huggins had them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Huggins

 

[upstater]

Huggins actually was let go prior to their inaugural season in the BE. However, I am still wrong as they were pretty darned good in CUSA per reading up in ESPN. My bad. Their best years were however in the 90's ... I think.

I don't really remember, but I thought they came into the conference in 2004? Huggins coached until Spring 2005.

 

[DW4UCONN]

I don't really remember, but I thought they came into the conference in 2004? Huggins coached until Spring 2005.

Huggins was let go August of 2005. Their fist season was 2005-06 per ESPN

 

[RS9999X]

RPI's are calculated not only by wins and losses, but by strength of schedule. And right now, the C7 plays against UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt, Notre Dame, and Cincy. So no.....it doesn't speak for itself....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratings_Percentage_Index

I know how RPI is calculated. Weak OOC Schedules and bad losses to turkeys are what kills the CUSA-7. Tulane' SOS is 287 and UTEP sports a shiny 27. Houston sports a 341!

 

[UConnDan97]

I know how RPI is calculated. Weak OOC Schedules and bad losses to turkeys are what kills the CUSA-7. Tulane' SOS is 287 and UTEP sports a shiny 27. Houston sports a 341!

And the C-7 is filled with "good losses"....so what do you want?

 

[UConnDan97]

I know how RPI is calculated. Weak OOC Schedules and bad losses to turkeys are what kills the CUSA-7. Tulane' SOS is 287 and UTEP sports a shiny 27. Houston sports a 341!

Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but....let's continue to beat a dead horse. I've already stated that I believe the two leagues are comparable in basketball prowess multiple times in this thread, and it's clear you don't buy that. That's fine. But since we're on the subject of "bad losses to turkeys", let me put some up there from the C-7:

DePaul - Gardner Webb, Wichita State, Western Kentucky, Loyola (Ill.)
Providence - BC , Brown (They aren't even the best team in their own city!). Also to note that they lost to UMass, who may end up being in the NBE equation.
Nova - Columbia, LaSalle, Temple (Wow! They aren't even in the top two in their own city!).
St. John's - Murray State, San Francisco, UNC-Asheville.

With the exception of Temple, if UConn were to lose to any one of those teams, we would have to stop no fewer than seven Boneyarders from jumping off of the Charter Oak Bridge! Will the C-7 have good basketball? Yes, but not great. Will the NBE have good basketball? Yes, but not great. Simple...

 

[whaler11]

The RPI isn't for the comparison but the Pomeroys which are - tell the exact same story.

 

[whaler11]

I think their best years were probably the mid to late 90's, when they had Fortson and Kenyon Martin. But keep in mind that from 1991 to 2002, they did not have a season where they won less than 22 games. That's ridiculously good. From 1991 to 2005, they didn't miss an NCAA tourney. Not one.

Cincy was/is a really good bball program, and I think that Cronin finally has them back to playing where Huggins had them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Huggins

I would say their best period was when they won back to back national championships. But that's just me.

 

[UConnDan97]

The RPI isn't for the comparison but the Pomeroys which are - tell the exact same story.

The Pomeroys are what? The Pomeroys use scores to indicate likely winning percentages. They are inherently flawed, but get stronger as the number of games gets higher. In other words, come back to me at the end of the year when we have at least 30 games under everyone's belt to use that type of metric. For everyone else, here is the calculation that Pomeroy uses as per Wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_expectation

"However, statisticians since the invention of this formula found it to have a fairly routine error..." The error gets smaller and smaller over sample size.

 

[UConnDan97]

I would say their best period was when they won back to back national championships. But that's just me.

Oh Jesus. Yes, 1961 and 1962 were their best years. Back when teams were called Texas Western and such. I'm sure we were all thinking about Oscar Robertson, too...

...I love when you understand what people are saying, but you just want to be "that guy"...

p.s.
If you write back to me about how Oscar Robertson wasn't on those championship teams, I'm going to ask a moderator to punch you in the throat...

 

[whaler11]

The Pomeroys are what? The Pomeroys use scores to indicate likely winning percentages. They are inherently flawed, but get stronger as the number of games gets higher. In other words, come back to me at the end of the year when we have at least 30 games under everyone's belt to use that type of metric. For everyone else, here is the calculation that Pomeroy uses as per Wiki link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_expectation

"However, statisticians since the invention of this formula found it to have a fairly routine error..." The error gets smaller and smaller over sample size.

The Pomeroys can show you the relative quality of college basketball teams. All computer rankings get better with a bigger sample size - no shit.

The C7 teams are better than the CUSA teams. The teams the C7 may add are much better than the teams the Big East may add.

There isn't even anything to really argue here. You want it to be one way, but it's not... it's the other.

 

[RS9999X]

My most memorable Cincy moment was the Van Exel team killing Calipari's Derek Kellog led UMass at the Springfield Civic Center on CBS in 1993. Both were returning squads that went to the Sweet 16 (UMass) and Final Four (Cincy). It was a wonderful sense of rivalry given the mouth on both coaches

 

[UConnDan97]

The Pomeroys can show you the relative quality of college basketball teams. All computer rankings get better with a bigger sample size - no .

The C7 teams are better than the CUSA teams. The teams the C7 may add are much better than the teams the Big East may add.

There isn't even anything to really argue here. You want it to be one way, but it's not... it's the other.

1) Yes, all computer models get better with sample size.
2) It is your opinion and ONLY your opinion that the C7 teams are better than the NBE.

In fact, tally up the head-to-head matchups this year (you know, the ones that don't rely on a computer). I think you'll find a different story than the one your laying down. But that's because you want it to be one way, but it's not....

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The C7 may get more per school for basketball than UConn will get for all sports.

 

[whaler11]

Oh Jesus. Yes, 1961 and 1962 were their best years. Back when teams were called Texas Western and such. I'm sure we were all thinking about Oscar Robertson, too...

...I love when you understand what people are saying, but you just want to be "that guy"...

p.s.
If you write back to me about how Oscar Robertson wasn't on those championship teams, I'm going to ask a moderator to punch you in the throat...

I made the comment because the Cincinnati conversation borders on pure ignorance (as opposed to the UCF comments which are willfully stupid). Cincinnati has a very solid program. They have had a solid program for decades. Assuming they don't get flushed down the toilet in CR they will have a solid program.

They are really the only school in the league that belongs in a basketball conference with UConn. I guess you could make a case for Temple, but the rest range from disgusting (Memphis) to embarrassing (ECU/Tulane).

 

[whaler11]

1) Yes, all computer models get better with sample size.
2) It is your opinion and ONLY your opinion that the C7 teams are better than the NBE.

In fact, tally up the head-to-head matchups this year (you know, the ones that don't rely on a computer). I think you'll find a different story than the one your laying down. But that's because you want it to be one way, but it's not....

LOL. Yes my opinion and the opinion of every computer model... and 99% of every other unbiased observer.

So your argument is that the computers don't actually take the game results into account - that somehow they are arriving at rankings that's aren't based on game outcomes.

Try this someday: Take the Pomeroy score projections and run them up against the Vegas lines and let me know if that model has value.

You are so far off the rails on this topic it's a bit sad. Really take the blue glasses off and look at the actual data.

 

[RS9999X]

The C7 may get more per school for basketball than UConn will get for all sports.

Unless Teams get to keep their Tier 3 games to market to the likes of SNY. If UConn can offer them 10 games or better that will pay a bit.

Otherwise it's Tulane radio to save the Conference

 

[UConnDan97]

I made the comment because the Cincinnati conversation borders on pure ignorance (as opposed to the UCF comments which are willfully stupid). Cincinnati has a very solid program. They have had a solid program for decades. Assuming they don't get flushed down the toilet in CR they will have a solid program.

They are really the only school in the league that belongs in a basketball conference with UConn. I guess you could make a case for Temple, but the rest range from disgusting (Memphis) to embarrassing (ECU/Tulane).

I agree. Cincy has been and I believe will continue to be a top tier basketball program.

Also, I saved everyone the trouble and I looked up the head to head matchups between the C-7 and NBE this year. Here is the score so far:

NBE 5, C7 3 (if you include Xavier, Butler, and VCU, the score becomes NBE 6, C7 5)
Here's the breakdown:
Marquette (1-1): W UConn, L Cincy
GTown (0-1): L USF
Providence: (None. I didn't count the loss to UMass because we don't know if they will be NBE. If they do, then the NBE is even further in the lead)
'Nova (1-1): W USF, L Temple
St. John's (1-0): W Cincy
Seton Hall: (None)
DePaul (0-2): L UConn, L Cincy

Xavier (1-1): W Temple, L Cincy
Butler: (None)
VCU (1-0): W Memphis

There's the scorecard so far, folks. Neither side is clearly in the lead as of yet...