Big East Prezs to have Conf Call Tomorrow, Invites Possible

[CL82]

As Mark Ennis, blogger on Big East Coast Bias, just tweeted, "If you can't go to the C-USA you can always bring the C-USA to youuuuuuuuuu"

nice avatar!

 

[CL82]

Didn't you here? Marinatto had lunch with the President of Brown & just decided to issue invitations to the Ivy League so that he doesn't have to worry about academic ranking or endowments, just facilities.

He's also issued invitations to:

Miami Dolphins - Florida presence, travel partner for USF
Minnesota Vikings - expanded footprint, major media market
Indianapolis Colts - See Vikings above.

In related news the Philadelphia Eagles applied but were turned down, probably a sign that Villanova is serious about upgrading.

 

[ctchamps]

This conference reminds me of the following:

Engine room (BE schools) to the captain of the Titanic: Sir we have a problem down here.
Captain (Marinatto): What type of problem?
Engine room: We have a leak coming from a hole aft.
Captain: How big is the hole?
Engine room: 40 feet.
Captain to the ship: I want all the officers (university presidents) report to the engine room with your tea cups and bail out the water.

 

[gars44]

You miss my point. They care as a means to an end. All the investment, all the effort to raise the profile is so that we can be a prominent nationally recognized public research institution and be thought of like UNC, UVA and Michigan are. Joining a conference with ECU, CFU and Memphis is antagonistic to that goal. The football itself is not important to them, the associations the school builds through football and the recognition it brings are important. Being in a conference with ECU, CFU and Memphis...when added to already weak schools like Louisville, WVU and USF, tarnishes our carefully cultivated image.

If the choice is between playing FBS with a bunch of schools 150 places worse than UConn on the USNews rankings and playing FCS football with academically prestigious research institutions (unrealistically, let's say the Ivy league), they drop FBS in a heartbeat. That's why I believe we'd go independent, schedule Navy, Army, ND, and others, before playing in such an academically poor league.

Ok, I get all that. I really do. However, the question, I guess, is what are we going to do right now? The plan was - and is - as you say. I get that, I get that, I get that. But right now, what are we going to do? You say, we're going independent before we play in a conference with Memphis, ECU, all the other ones you don't like. I respectfully disagree. I believe we play in a conference with these schools in football until such time that we can establish ourselves as one of the chosen.

 

[upstater]

For about the fifth time I'll point out that the only reason we went to FBS and made that investment was to raise the profile of the school. The hope was to hang out with the "cool" public universities like UVA, UNC and Michigan (those 3 mentioned specifically). It was not part of the master plan that our associations would instead be with schools that were significantly lower in profile, not just than the BE, but even than the old Yankee conference. Nobody at UConn administration gives a crap about football. It was a means to an end. This is why you've seen schools like SMU and the academies discussed rather than ECU and Memphis.

What proof do you have of this? Especially since there are so many great schools without D1 football.

 

[RS9999X]

The other argument for Div I was losing less money than FCS or Div II which are structured to be noney losers. Then there's the social benefits of a stadium which East Hartford somewhat ruined with their post fact noise complaints.

 

[Pudge]

For about the fifth time I'll point out that the only reason we went to FBS and made that investment was to raise the profile of the school. The hope was to hang out with the "cool" public universities like UVA, UNC and Michigan (those 3 mentioned specifically). It was not part of the master plan that our associations would instead be with schools that were significantly lower in profile, not just than the BE, but even than the old Yankee conference. Nobody at UConn administration gives a crap about football. It was a means to an end. This is why you've seen schools like SMU and the academies discussed rather than ECU and Memphis.

You are about 180 degrees WRONG.

We attained stature using our Brand in Hoop ... and expanded it by being a BCS program. Our academic stature is proof of the path ... and GARS is right. USF & UCF can be moving past Florida State. Market & Leadership. We will be past Syracuse & BC easily. Why? It's pure inertia ... and Market & Leaders.

 

[Adios]

We should consider independence in football until we are snagged up by some stable conference. That's a better option than a rebuilt Big East.

 

[upstater]

The other argument for Div I was losing less money than FCS or Div II which are structured to be noney losers. Then there's the social benefits of a stadium which East Hartford somewhat ruined with their post fact noise complaints.

Except this isn't true. I know this firsthand from Buffalo moving up. Losses tripled. Have a look at Rhode Island's budget, and then look at a bunch of schools that moved up.

 

[HuskyHawk]

What proof do you have of this? Especially since there are so many great schools without D1 football.

Here is the statement from the University itself. UConn 2000 was announced in 1995. The move to A-1 was announced in 1997.

1. Why is the opportunity to upgrade its football program important to the academic future of the University of Connecticut?
The University of Connecticut is moving rapidly in accordance with its Strategic Plan to become one of the nation's premier public universities. The University is developing world class academic programs, implementing the UCONN 2000 plan, expanding its base of private support, and strengthening connections in the Connecticut business community..... Division I-A football will contribute to UConn's standing as a nationally recognized University and help move us into the top ranks of public institutions of higher education. The public tends to judge institutions by their peers; virtually every major public university with a strong academic reputation can also lay claim to a significant athletic program. Major athletic programs at schools like Michigan, North Carolina and Virginia have been helpful to these institutions as they have sought to recruit outstanding students and faculty and they will be helpful to similar efforts here.
There are many great schools without D1 football. But there are really no great flagship state universities without D1 football. Here's some more from the Advocate around the time of the announcemet.

President Philip E. Austin agreed with Rowland that athletics and academics were not antagonistic, but rather, complementary.
"It seems to me that even the most pure of the academic purists cannot deny the impact that the phenomenal success of Connecticut basketball programs have had on the ability of this institution to become more well known nationally and to recruit more quality students from Connecticut and beyond."
Austin also pointed to a variety of changes that the move to Division I-A football will produce, including raising the visibility of the University during the capital campaign, much of which will be aimed at raising funds for endowed professorships and scholarships. He mentioned that the upgrade will increase the University's recruitment power statewide and nationally, and foster a greater sense of community on campus.
"I would also point out that there is a group of institutions that are generally regarded as the pre-eminent academic research universities in the country, and they are the members of the Association of American Universities (AAU)," he said. "It is more than coincidence that virtually all of those institutions compete at the Division I-A level in football."

 

[upstater]

Here is the statement from the University itself. UConn 2000 was announced in 1995. The move to A-1 was announced in 1997.

1. Why is the opportunity to upgrade its football program important to the academic future of the University of Connecticut?
The University of Connecticut is moving rapidly in accordance with its Strategic Plan to become one of the nation's premier public universities. The University is developing world class academic programs, implementing the UCONN 2000 plan, expanding its base of private support, and strengthening connections in the Connecticut business community..... Division I-A football will contribute to UConn's standing as a nationally recognized University and help move us into the top ranks of public institutions of higher education. The public tends to judge institutions by their peers; virtually every major public university with a strong academic reputation can also lay claim to a significant athletic program. Major athletic programs at schools like Michigan, North Carolina and Virginia have been helpful to these institutions as they have sought to recruit outstanding students and faculty and they will be helpful to similar efforts here.
There are many great schools without D1 football. But there are really no great flagship state universities without D1 football. Here's some more from the Advocate around the time of the announcemet.

President Philip E. Austin agreed with Rowland that athletics and academics were not antagonistic, but rather, complementary.
"It seems to me that even the most pure of the academic purists cannot deny the impact that the phenomenal success of Connecticut basketball programs have had on the ability of this institution to become more well known nationally and to recruit more quality students from Connecticut and beyond."
Austin also pointed to a variety of changes that the move to Division I-A football will produce, including raising the visibility of the University during the capital campaign, much of which will be aimed at raising funds for endowed professorships and scholarships. He mentioned that the upgrade will increase the University's recruitment power statewide and nationally, and foster a greater sense of community on campus.
"I would also point out that there is a group of institutions that are generally regarded as the pre-eminent academic research universities in the country, and they are the members of the Association of American Universities (AAU)," he said. "It is more than coincidence that virtually all of those institutions compete at the Division I-A level in football."

No great state universities without football? Are you serious? You can't be serious. Cal-San Diego, Davis, Irvine, Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, SUNY-Buffalo, Binghamton, Stony Brook,

Next, this statement: "The public tends to judge institutions by their peers; virtually every major public university with a strong academic reputation can also lay claim to a significant athletic program. Major athletic programs at schools like Michigan, North Carolina and Virginia have been helpful to these institutions as they have sought to recruit outstanding students and faculty and they will be helpful to similar efforts here."

Those schools joined the AAU in the 1910s! Those schools are great academic schools because, well, they are great academic schools.They were great academic schools with top rankings long before bigtime sports came around.

Virtually ALL of the AAU institutions compete at the D1 level in football? Except for the fact that 27 of the 60 schools DON'T!!!!

The majority of the top 50 in USNews don't play D1 football either.

Andrew Zimbalist did a study that showed only 10% of the schools that went bigtime with sports experienced any positive effects. Indeed, his study showed that schools that don't win big in college sports may even develop a loser's stigma that hurts the academic side. probably no surprise that Rutgers has dropped 25 spots in the rankings over the time that they've ramped up investment in their programs.

 

[Rumrunner]

Villanova, Uconn and BC have all benefited from the immense publicity that their athletic programs have attracted. How much of a benefit? Enough to know it mattered. I doubt anyone can quantify it that accurately.

E.g., would the state of Conn allocated as much for the capital fund if not for men's and women's basketball? I guess you'd have to query the sponsors of the bill, their constituents, etc. That's tough to do.

With respect to the schools you mentioned in california, none is considered to be a flagship. UC irvine, uc davis, uc sb , uc san diego are the top uc schools not in bcs or fbs for that matter. There are reasons they don't compete in high level athletic conferences, namely their purpose, the rise of ucla as a commuter school, ucla's relationship with the uc system, etc. So the UC system flagships, Cal and UCLA do compete in bcs athletics. After that, its tough to find any PUBLIC universities ranked ahead of UConn in US News.

UVA, UNC, Ill, Penn State, tO$U, Michigan, Texas, Cal, UCLA, FLA, AtM, Pitt, Washington, Wisconsin, Maryland, Georgia Tech, UCONN are the top 20 publics. There is a commonality, namely they all compete in fbs. That's 17 out of 20 of the US News top 20 public universities. Only 4 in the top 20 not in fbs are the 3 UC' mentioned above. Odd # because of us news' ties.

 

[upstater]

Villanova, Uconn and BC have all benefited from the immense publicity that their athletic programs have attracted. How much of a benefit? Enough to know it mattered. I doubt anyone can quantify it that accurately.

E.g., would the state of Conn allocated as much for the capital fund if not for men's and women's basketball? I guess you'd have to query the sponsors of the bill, their constituents, etc. That's tough to do.

With respect to the schools you mentioned in california, none is considered to be a flagship. UC irvine, uc davis, uc sb , uc san diego are the top uc schools not in bcs or fbs for that matter. There are reasons they don't compete in high level athletic conferences, namely their purpose, the rise of ucla as a commuter school, ucla's relationship with the uc system, etc. So the UC system flagships, Cal and UCLA do compete in bcs athletics. After that, its tough to find any PUBLIC universities ranked ahead of UConn in US News.

UVA, UNC, Ill, Penn State, tO$U, Michigan, Texas, Cal, UCLA, FLA, AtM, Pitt, Washington, Wisconsin, Maryland, Georgia Tech, UCONN are the top 20 publics. There is a commonality, namely they all compete in fbs. That's 17 out of 20 of the US News top 20 public universities. Only 4 in the top 20 not in fbs are the 3 UC' mentioned above. Odd # because of us news' ties.

You're making some arbitrary assessments of what is a flagship and what isn't. In California, the entire U. Cal system is stellar. It's just like the SUNY system in that there is no flagship. These are big states with multiple public institutions.

And, I didn't deny that sports helps some schools (I personally don't think UConn has benefited from football in terms of academics but it surely will help if UConn makes it into a BCS conference). Nonetheless, in the Zimbalist study, he showed that the assumptions just don't hold true in the vast majority of cases. In BCs case, probably, though someone posted a study here contesting that.

The schools you listed as the top publics had established their reputations as top academics by the turn of the last century.

I would say that of those schools, only UCLA, UConn, Texas A&M (and they are about to be dinged reputationally for academics because of some of their harebrained new ideas), and Florida were helped. I exclude Georgia Tech because the only thing holding them back all along was the fact they're humanities were poor until the last couple decades. sports were maybe important for the rise of 4 on your top 20 list.

 

[willie99]

did you know?

Jim Calhoun made everything possible

imagine that? basketball plowed the way

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Upstater, I don't know if you understand the term Flagship.

Cal-Berkely is California's and New York State (by design) does not have one.

 

[upstater]

Upstater, I don't know if you understand the term Flagship.

Cal-Berkely is California's and New York State (by design) does not have one.

Cal-Berkeley is not California's flagship institution. Not any longer. It was up until the 1950s. It's in a system of schools that are totally equal, like New York's. Flagship institution refers to the main institution in a system of schools. Penn State, for example. Until U. California was reorganized in the 1950s and 1960s, Cal-Berkeley was it. In fact, Cal-Berkeley was known as the University of California back then. After the expansion, the Cal-system was developed.

 

[Rumrunner]

The entire UC system is not stellar. After all there are UC Merced and UC Riverside. The UC's have benefitted from historically crazy low tuition, combined with paucity of 4 year schools. Now they aren't so cheap anymore. Nuts to think of, but in OC, for 4 year colleges you have UC Irvine, Chapman Univ, Soka Univ and cal st fullerton. This in a county larger in population than CT. Soka is a tiny school, chapman small also, for film, design and business, fullerton along with UCI are the only real ones. That's kind of in a nutshell why uc schools can be good without FBS athletics.

In ct, you have yale, wesleyan, uconn, trinity, qu, ecsu, wcsu, ccsu, scsu, fairfield, hartford, conn college, uscga, unh, probably others I've missed.

 

[upstater]

The entire UC system is not stellar. After all there are UC Merced and UC Riverside. The UC's have benefitted from historically crazy low tuition, combined with paucity of 4 year schools. Now they aren't so cheap anymore. Nuts to think of, but in OC, for 4 year colleges you have UC Irvine, Chapman Univ, Soka Univ and cal st fullerton. This in a county larger in population than CT. Soka is a tiny school, chapman small also, for film, design and business, fullerton along with UCI are the only real ones. That's kind of in a nutshell why uc schools can be good without FBS athletics.

In ct, you have yale, wesleyan, uconn, trinity, qu, ecsu, wcsu, ccsu, scsu, fairfield, hartford, conn college, uscga, unh, probably others I've missed.

The expansion to 8 comprises the original buildout. The others are new additions that don't have the history or the resources to compete, so it's hardly a surprise that a school like Merced isn't stellar.

Orange County larger pop. than Connecticut? Don't think so. Besides, all the Claremont colleges are a stone's throw away. I get what you're saying about the state institutions having little competition though--but that's why they were created in the first. California's demographic explosion. The point is, California sunk its energy and resources into these universities, and they became world-class schools. That's the point I'm making.

 

[RS9999X]

The impressive thing about the OC: It's the size of Hartford County (plus Ellington and Vernon) and 4 times the population.

 

[RS9999X]

I don't know anyone who picked their school based on athletics unless they were athletes. I do know some who were made aware of a school because of athletics and that legitimized it so to speak.

As to the benefit of that? Is Boston College better because it gets more applicants from out of the region that meet te same profile and then get the same types of kids but get them from a greater geographical area? More New England kids leave the area and more non-New Englanders come to the area.

 

[Rumrunner]

You're correcto mundo. Ct pop 3.45 million, oc 3.01 million.
Claremont colleges being a stone's throw, nonsequitur...unless you want me to count mass and ny colleges, too.

In any event, oc supports 4 four-year colleges, including uci. Ct has 4 times that, if not more, again pointing out one reason why of the 5 top 20 public univ that don't play fbs, 4 are in the uc system...home of ucla and cal.
I actually forgot about the only other top 20 public that isn't fbs, william and mary, which might as well be private.

The expansion to 8 comprises the original buildout. The others are new additions that don't have the history or the resources to compete, so it's hardly a surprise that a school like Merced isn't stellar.

Orange County larger pop. than Connecticut? Don't think so. Besides, all the Claremont colleges are a stone's throw away. I get what you're saying about the state institutions having little competition though--but that's why they were created in the first. California's demographic explosion. The point is, California sunk its energy and resources into these universities, and they became world-class schools. That's the point I'm making.

 

[upstater]

I don't know anyone who picked their school based on athletics unless they were athletes. I do know some who were made aware of a school because of athletics and that legitimized it so to speak.

As to the benefit of that? Is Boston College better because it gets more applicants from out of the region that meet te same profile and then get the same types of kids but get them from a greater geographical area? More New England kids leave the area and more non-New Englanders come to the area.

BC benefited, I'd say, though it's contested. Nonetheless, the school down the road on Comm. Ave. gets more a higher % of apps from outside the region.

 

[upstater]

You're correcto mundo. Ct pop 3.45 million, oc 3.01 million.
Claremont colleges being a stone's throw, nonsequitur...unless you want me to count mass and ny colleges, too.

In any event, oc supports 4 four-year colleges, including uci. Ct has 4 times that, if not more, again pointing out one reason why of the 5 top 20 public univ that don't play fbs, 4 are in the uc system...home of ucla and cal.
I actually forgot about the only other top 20 public that isn't fbs, william and mary, which might as well be private.

They're 20 miles from old Orange. Not the same as saying NYC or Mass.

 

[uc1974]

W&M was private until 1906. They needed state $$ to survive.

 

[zls44]

How much of a benefit? Enough to know it mattered. I doubt anyone can quantify it that accurately.

"AAAH! Don't ask me for facts! It just happened, ok! I'm just right!"

 

[HuskyHawk]

Look, I don't care whether you can be a great public university without FBS football. The point is that the people running UConn thought it was necessary. Given that the other ne public schools mostly languish in obscurity, they may have a point. Regardless, my point remains, there is nothing great about the possible new BE. It will not happen with those schools.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Look, I don't care whether you can be a great public university without FBS football. The point is that the people running UConn thought it was necessary. Given that the other ne public schools mostly languish in obscurity, they may have a point. Regardless, my point remains, there is nothing great about the possible new BE. It will not happen with those schools.

So what is your suggestion? Shut down the university? Or ask the ACC again? They seem to be right on the cusp of sending us an invite.

 

[sportsart]

I'm amazed the presidents had enough time on the call to discuss the realignment issues and flagship schools.

They are special people.