Big East basketball- why isn’t it growing like the rest of wbb?

[HuskyNan]

A comment came up in the game thread expressing disappointment that Butler wasn’t able to put up more of a fight. Rather than continuing the conversation in the game thread, I’m starting a new one.

Original post:

My response:

Not all Big East schools make a commitment to women’s sports like UConn does. Butler’s women’s hoops coach makes $109,000 while the men’s coach makes $463,000. Yes, the men have higher revenue but it seems to me a winning team, adequately supported by the AD including marketing effort, will draw fans

Butler actually seems to be marginally improved, a credit to the coach. It seems to have some players - which leads to another problem. The best non-UConn Big East players get lured away for more exposure, more NIL opportunities, and a chance for more wins. See Aneesa Morrow (DePau), Lucy Olson (Villanova), Lauren Park-Lane (Seton Hall), et al

Equality in athletics disclosure report released

“‘I think there are still some people who undervalue women’s sports.’”

thebutlercollegian.com

 

[HuskyNan]

@FanSince17 response:

 

[HuskyNan]

In replying to FanSince17:

There are several factors but the biggest has to do with money (why, of course if does). If there’s no effort to sell women’s basketball, fans will turn to the men’s teams. Many schools don’t want to spend money on the women at the expense of the men. It’s a shame because students and alumni as well as local residents are a built-in audience that could be wooed. Local schools and AAU teams are also potential fans.

Maryland did a good job promoting its women’s hoops team and worked to get a good coach. (Side note - they asked Geno for recommendations). Coach Frese got a good budget for recruiting and was able to travel nationally to various high schools and AAU contests. It didn’t hurt that Maryland is in the talent-rich Philly-DC-Virginia area.

Another issue is that 75-80% of ADs are men. A decade ago, the Syracuse women’s team went to the AD to complain about the quality of coaching they were receiving and to say that they were tired of losing. the AD basically told them to suck it up, it’s not like they’re the men’s team.

Boosters are also primarily men. They support the men’s hoops and football team, women not as much. Circling back to Butler, a female booster gave $12 million for all Butler’s women’s sports - let’s hope the school can make it pay off

 

[Kaizen]

I am so surprised that Butler is not a small university. It is founded in 1855 and named after founder Ovid Butler, the university has over 60 major academic fields of study within six colleges in the arts, business, communication, education, liberal arts and the sciences, and health sciences. It enrolls approximately 5,700 undergraduate and graduate students. Its 295-acre (119 ha) campus is approximately five miles (8.0 km) north of downtown Indianapolis.

Its endowment is $295,85 million as 2024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler_University

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

In replying to FanSince17:

There are several factors but the biggest has to do with money (why, of course if does). If there’s no effort to sell women’s basketball, fans will turn to the men’s teams. Many schools don’t want to spend money on the women at the expense of the men. It’s a shame because students and alumni as well as local residents are a built-in audience that could be wooed. Local schools and AAU teams are also potential fans.

Maryland did a good job promoting its women’s hoops team and worked to get a good coach. (Side note - they asked Geno for recommendations). Coach Frese got a good budget for recruiting and was able to travel nationally to various high schools and AAU contests. It didn’t hurt that Maryland is in the talent-rich Philly-DC-Virginia area.

Another issue is that 75-80% of ADs are men. A decade ago, the Syracuse women’s team went to the AD to complain about the quality of coaching they were receiving and to say that they were tired of losing. the AD basically told them to suck it up, it’s not like they’re the men’s team.

Boosters are also primarily men. They support the men’s hoops and football team, women not as much. Circling back to Butler, a female booster gave $12 million for all Butler’s women’s sports - let’s hope the school can make it pay off

Yes across the board.

Fans are part of it. As you say, you can woo an audience, but lets not minimize how absolutely difficult it can be. As my wife ranted in the years when we were following a really good, Sweet 16 and up women's basketball team at Rutgers - attendance was usually less than half an arena while a pretty miserable men's team sold out. Even at Arizona - where there was a base of women's fans from the Joan Bonvicini years - who had the support of local basketball god Lute Olsen - attendance rarely topped a couple thousand in the lean years and grew to 5000 plus at a "basketball school" only with success.

One demonstrable difference is the revenue, of course, as women's basketball tickets are less than the men virtually everywhere, and the earnings from the Men's March Madness isn't on the same order of magnitude as the women's tourney.

Money helps and a decision to put it to women's sports helps, but of course that is often donor's choice. But how to attract an audience (it isn't all men) that would rather watch "real" "men's" sports than what they perceive emotionally as inferior women's sports is a whole additional dynamic.

 

[Bigboote]

In replying to FanSince17:

There are several factors but the biggest has to do with money (why, of course if does). If there’s no effort to sell women’s basketball, fans will turn to the men’s teams. Many schools don’t want to spend money on the women at the expense of the men. It’s a shame because students and alumni as well as local residents are a built-in audience that could be wooed. Local schools and AAU teams are also potential fans.

Maryland did a good job promoting its women’s hoops team and worked to get a good coach. (Side note - they asked Geno for recommendations). Coach Frese got a good budget for recruiting and was able to travel nationally to various high schools and AAU contests. It didn’t hurt that Maryland is in the talent-rich Philly-DC-Virginia area.

Another issue is that 75-80% of ADs are men. A decade ago, the Syracuse women’s team went to the AD to complain about the quality of coaching they were receiving and to say that they were tired of losing. the AD basically told them to suck it up, it’s not like they’re the men’s team.

Boosters are also primarily men. They support the men’s hoops and football team, women not as much. Circling back to Butler, a female booster gave $12 million for all Butler’s women’s sports - let’s hope the school can make it pay off

Yeah, it's a chicken-and-egg thing. There's small investment because there's a small audience; there's a small audience because there's a small investment. It seems like once every 10-15 years, there's a surge in interest, the latest being the Caitlin Clark phenomenon. Every time it's lasted about a year before it ebbs due to there being very little coverage -- not many games to watch, not many reports in newspapers. . .

It seems that the WNBA, despite the NBA's efforts to minimize it, may have been able to capitalize on the increased interest this time. I'm hopeful that the increased coverage of the pros will "legitimize" women's basketball and create a huge wave of new fans. Those fans, if they tune into decent NCAA games, will find out that the college game is more fun to watch (IMO). And the NCAA has made some strides in recent years, especially in their treatment of the women's basketball tourney.

Women's soccer and volleyball are also getting more coverage. Let's just hope all that continues and leads to interest in other sports.

 

[Bone Dog]

I am so surprised that Butler is not a small university. It is founded in 1855 and named after founder Ovid Butler, the university has over 60 major academic fields of study within six colleges in the arts, business, communication, education, liberal arts and the sciences, and health sciences. It enrolls approximately 5,700 undergraduate and graduate students. Its 295-acre (119 ha) campus is approximately five miles (8.0 km) north of downtown Indianapolis.

Its endowment is $295,85 million as 2024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler_University

One tiny disagreement with this informative post. 5,700 total students is a small institution. 4,500 undergrads should make this even clearer. And the ~$300m endowment is also not substantial, amounting to less than $70k/student.

I’d only add that Butler has a proud history as a private nonsectarian institution founded before the civil war and with the explicit intention to be free of any taint of the legacy of slavery. Ovid Butler ‘walked the walk,’ so to speak. They were also an early enroller of women.

There’s much to admire about this school. But they are cash-poor. That’s the simple fact and many of their choices historically have been forced on them by financial exigencies. If they could find a way to promote the women’s program even more, I don’t think they’d shy away from it.

 

[HuskyNan]

 

[HuskyNan]

The UCLA situation

 

[Zonepress]

lots of interesting comments
imho there may have been a time for big east wbb
to have become relevant but the time has past
the p-4 teams have embraced wbb and the house settlement
ensures their dominance
is a Tcu situation possible ?
not likely but it would take huge $

 

[Duncan Idaho]

Caught it on Youtube as a guest Not YoutubeTV Their top freshman got an upper leg injury late. cariied off. was having it worked on.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

lots of interesting comments
imho there may have been a time for big east wbb
to have become relevant but the time has past
the p-4 teams have embraced wbb and the house settlement
ensures their dominance
is a Tcu situation possible ?
not likely but it would take huge $

They are not going to compete with the P4 or P2 AD budgets and NIL. Their budgets go from 30-60MM with a significant portion going to keep their MBB relevant.

 

[cabbie191]

The disparity of support between men and women’s sports at some schools is deeply ingrained - remember a couple of years ago when Syracuse WBB was doing well again and their coach publicly complained about the lack of fan support, and got excoriated for her efforts? (Yes, I was one of them - not for what she said but how she went about it.)

I wish I could find it - not too long ago there was an article about the overall status of Big East sports, both men’s and women’s, and how given the nature of their largely Catholic university heritage, the schools are likely going to lag in NIL money.

Things are what they are and changing cultural norms is an incredibly long journey. One case in point - UConn football. Connecticut is not a football state. Even in years when the Huskies have had above average seasons, that hasn’t translated into significant fan support. I played high school football in CT and having now lived in 4 other states, it is clear to me that the investment in youth football is lacking compared to most other non-New England states.

Not a complaint, mind you, just an observation and opinion.

 

[Skeets]

In replying to FanSince17:

There are several factors but the biggest has to do with money (why, of course if does). If there’s no effort to sell women’s basketball, fans will turn to the men’s teams. Many schools don’t want to spend money on the women at the expense of the men. It’s a shame because students and alumni as well as local residents are a built-in audience that could be wooed. Local schools and AAU teams are also potential fans.

Maryland did a good job promoting its women’s hoops team and worked to get a good coach. (Side note - they asked Geno for recommendations). Coach Frese got a good budget for recruiting and was able to travel nationally to various high schools and AAU contests. It didn’t hurt that Maryland is in the talent-rich Philly-DC-Virginia area.

Another issue is that 75-80% of ADs are men. A decade ago, the Syracuse women’s team went to the AD to complain about the quality of coaching they were receiving and to say that they were tired of losing. the AD basically told them to suck it up, it’s not like they’re the men’s team.

Boosters are also primarily men. They support the men’s hoops and football team, women not as much. Circling back to Butler, a female booster gave $12 million for all Butler’s women’s sports - let’s hope the school can make it pay off

This sounds somewhat sexist. It might be true, but I think the Catholic schools are stuck in the 1970's. There are a fair number of high schools with the same attitude, i.e. let's give the girls something to do. The sad fact of the matter is that WCBB is becoming a DII sport at these schools.

 

[FanSince17]

Caught it on Youtube as a guest Not YoutubeTV Their top freshman got an upper leg injury late. cariied off. was having it worked on.

Great find. I read it. Maybe that's why Geno's press conference at Hinkle Fieldhouse was 3 minutes long. This has to be a factor in all of this.

 

[Zonepress]

They are not going to compete with the P4 or P2 AD budgets and NIL. Their budgets go from 30-60MM with a significant portion going to keep their MBB relevant.

seems we agree

 

[Palatine]

As Yogi said, if people (media) don't want to go to the game, no one can stop them.

 

[Boreifs]

It was on Big+, which is a subscription service.

 

[Cuango]

A comment came up in the game thread expressing disappointment that Butler wasn’t able to put up more of a fight. Rather than continuing the conversation in the game thread, I’m starting a new one.

Original post:

View attachment 115209


My response:

Not all Big East schools make a commitment to women’s sports like UConn does. Butler’s women’s hoops coach makes $109,000 while the men’s coach makes $463,000. Yes, the men have higher revenue but it seems to me a winning team, adequately supported by the AD including marketing effort, will draw fans

Butler actually seems to be marginally improved, a credit to the coach. It seems to have some players - which leads to another problem. The best non-UConn Big East players get lured away for more exposure, more NIL opportunities, and a chance for more wins. See Aneesa Morrow (DePau), Lucy Olson (Villanova), Lauren Park-Lane (Seton Hall), et al

Equality in athletics disclosure report released

“‘I think there are still some people who undervalue women’s sports.’”

thebutlercollegian.com

Wow! $109,000! That basically explains everything! Kudos to that coach for at least fielding a team that plays hard and clearly has an idea what they are trying to do. For me, that’s good money (I was a teacher), for a coach at a Division 1 University, it’s embarrassing. All respect to the coach, I am in no way putting him down, but Butler should be ashamed! What do they pay his assistant/s? Minimum wage and a fruit basket?

 

[Cuango]

Actually, it was shown on the Big+ network, presumably a subscription site?

 

[visitingcock]

A comment came up in the game thread expressing disappointment that Butler wasn’t able to put up more of a fight. Rather than continuing the conversation in the game thread, I’m starting a new one.

Original post:

View attachment 115209


My response:

Not all Big East schools make a commitment to women’s sports like UConn does. Butler’s women’s hoops coach makes $109,000 while the men’s coach makes $463,000. Yes, the men have higher revenue but it seems to me a winning team, adequately supported by the AD including marketing effort, will draw fans

Butler actually seems to be marginally improved, a credit to the coach. It seems to have some players - which leads to another problem. The best non-UConn Big East players get lured away for more exposure, more NIL opportunities, and a chance for more wins. See Aneesa Morrow (DePau), Lucy Olson (Villanova), Lauren Park-Lane (Seton Hall), et al

Equality in athletics disclosure report released

“‘I think there are still some people who undervalue women’s sports.’”

thebutlercollegian.com

Perhaps I am out of line in asking but : Doesn’t this board/forum Contribute to the problem by somewhat ignoring Big East wbb?

I have frequently wondered why there is no annual thread regarding the Big East wbb on this board or even in the general forum. While things like standings are rarely in doubt regarding UConn, there should be interest in who’s 2 or 3 or so and has a shot or shots at NCAA bids. Who are the best non-UConn players in the conference? Etc, etc.

I have been tempted to open a “Big East WBB 2025-26” thread like those of the P-4 Conference threads ( on this board rather than the General). But, I think it would be overstepping my bounds. Please feel free to delete this post without offense being taken if you feel it is inappropriate for an outsider.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

seems we agree

Think maybe the only thing it still has going for it is its market footprint. IIRC The NCAA doesn't control the CFP money or other major bowls but March Madness revs fund about 80% of its funding? I would think we should get more rewarded for our collective basketball success.

 

[oldhusky]

This sounds somewhat sexist. It might be true, but I think the Catholic schools are stuck in the 1970's. There are a fair number of high schools with the same attitude, i.e. let's give the girls something to do. The sad fact of the matter is that WCBB is becoming a DII sport at these schools.

I think when it comes to sports, being non denominational is a significant advantage. Are there some people that will never become fans of a catholic school because of their religious affiliation? Of course! No matter what religious affiliation, it is a subset of the general population that limits the potential fan base, and possibly the players they recruit.

Because they don't generally have football teams, catholic schools are not sports schools in general. If attending a variety of top sporting events during the year is very important to a potential student, they may not go there, so the student body is not as sports oriented in general.

The big recent changes are NIL and the ability to transfer in the portal without waiting a year. We have gone from players largely choosing a school for 4 years, based heavily on basketball issues like fit, style, coaching etc. to free agency every year and "show me the money".

I feel sorry for many of the Big East coaches. It has become the Power 4 and a big drop off to everyone else. There used to be more room for high mid major conferences to have a couple of teams that were competitive with the power conferences, but i think those days are disappearing.

If you look at the top 100 recruiting lists it is pretty much Power 4 plus Uconn, with just a handful of players going anywhere else. If you are a Big East coach that recruits a player outside that group, but develops them into a top 100 player in their class, you are likely to lose them to a top school for monetary reasons only. Just the way it is, the gap between Power 4 and everybody else is getting bigger, and the Big East is everybody else except for Uconn.

As for the current popularity of the sport, there are several types of fans. In the major cities there are many fans that are hard core and root for all of the teams good or bad. Then there are fans that only jump on the bandwagon for a great team or interesting star or personality. Women's basketball attracts more of the later, but is making more inroads to the general population.

The Caitlin Clark effect has been truly amazing. Her impact on attendance, TV ratings, and the next collective bargaining agreement has been huge. Those were largely Johnny come lately fans following a new celebrity, more than women's basketball fans in general. But those new fans may say, hey this women's basketball is pretty interesting, and start to follow other teams in college and professionally.

With Caitlin and Angel Reese entering the W as social media stars two years ago, Paige this last year, and Azzi and others on their way, the possibility of raising awareness of women's basketball as a major sport with the general population is there. In college, however, i feel that interest will still remain mostly with the power schools.

 

[cancontent]

It was on Big+, which is a subscription service.

That isn't close to national television and BIG10+ doesn't have the same subscription numbers as ESPN+ and other services. And to be fair to the conference schedulers, it's hard to gauge where teams will be at this point of the season. USC being ranked was very likely, Nebraska, not so much at the start of the season.

The national broadcast schedule was arranged months ago and flipping it isn't like flexing NFL football games. The announcers BTN use also work for other conferences, like Winters-Scott who called a Big East game this past week. The logistics to switch to a network crew instead of the students who run the BIG10+ games aren't simple.

 

[Wbbfan1]

Football is the Primary Reason why the Big East aren't able to improve their Women's Teams. There's so much more dollars avail that SEC and BIG are able to provide to their other Sports Programs. The ACC and B12 while not having the same dollars avail are able to provide more support to Women's teams. Besides the Football money I'm sure the amount of dollars that Boosters provide is significantly higher at Football Schools.

The advantage that UConn has is they've had a Great Women's BB Team since the 90's and have a Dynamic Head Coach in Geno. Geno has also been smart enough to schedule high profile games on an annual basis and that helps provide publicity to his program.