Better Career: Ray Allen or Allen Iverson ?

[MilliniumPrince]

No way Kobe goes that route. The guy won 5 championships, was a legendary scorer AND defender, and is an all-time great. Kobe's not Jordan or Lebron, but he's not too far removed. Don't let his douchy-ness dismissed just how good he was.

Not about his personality. I think he is a top five all-time talent, but not not 10 all-time great. I value efficiency above most things. I don't think he has ever shot higher than 48% for a season. His career number is probably around 46%. Considering he spent the first half of his career playing second fiddle to the most dominant post player since Kareem, I would think a person of his talent would either shoot better or rack up assist totals. I doubt he ever averaged more than 6 dimes per game. Jordan shot 50% for his career. Lebron is nearing that number, and Durant is already there. Dr. J shot nearly 51% for his career. Bird was in the upper 40s I believe. When I think of guys in his talent class, he isn't nearly efficient enough for me. But his talent cannot be denied.

 

[cordeodato]

Per ESPN
.425 shooting 2's
.313 shooting 3's

If you watched the guy play you would have to know
that 48% it way out of line

 

[joober jones]

When reading the other day that Ray past Iverson in career points I wondered if Ray actually had a better career or not. I'm the biggest Ray Allen but I also respect Iversons game and the things he did during his prime. Both came in the league together and both are first ballet HOFers. It's a fair argument and helps take a break from all these tournament threads.

Ray Allen has the 3pt record and an NBA title to his name. He also never made a practice speech. That said, Iverson had an enviable career of his own. He also has this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCN_j-k_41c

 

[tzznandrew]

Not about his personality. I think he is a top five all-time talent, but not not 10 all-time great. I value efficiency above most things. I don't think he has ever shot higher than 48% for a season. His career number is probably around 46%. Considering he spent the first half of his career playing second fiddle to the most dominant post player since Kareem, I would think a person of his talent would either shoot better or rack up assist totals. I doubt he ever averaged more than 6 dimes per game. Jordan shot 50% for his career. Lebron is nearing that number, and Durant is already there. Dr. J shot nearly 51% for his career. Bird was in the upper 40s I believe. When I think of guys in his talent class, he isn't nearly efficient enough for me. But his talent cannot be denied.

I'm with you. I think Kobe is overrated by many many people. He's a very good player historically, but was never the best player in the game, even for a season (yes, even when he averaged 35 ppg). He is the greatest volume scorer ever.

Also, his defense is wildly overrated. There was a time, when he played with Shaq, where, yes, he was a fantastic defender. But once Shaq left, so did the D.

He has 5 titles, I'll concede that. And he earned them, too. But he won 3 with Shaq, and he needed Perkins to tear his ACL to win his 5th.

 

[Lefty2one]

I'm with you. I think Kobe is overrated by many many people. He's a very good player historically, but was never the best player in the game, even for a season (yes, even when he averaged 35 ppg). He is the greatest volume scorer ever.

Also, his defense is wildly overrated. There was a time, when he played with Shaq, where, yes, he was a fantastic defender. But once Shaq left, so did the D.

He has 5 titles, I'll concede that. And he earned them, too. But he won 3 with Shaq, and he needed Perkins to tear his ACL to win his 5th.

I'm in this group as well. To me, Kobe is the most overrated player in in the last three decades of the NBA. Efficiency, shot selection, his D is way overrated, in 4 of his 5 titles he was the second best player on the team or (in the Finals at least, Pau had a better series vs Boston in 2010). He has one MVP.

He was a poor man's MJ who did everything worse than MJ except for shoot threes. LeBron is already a better player than Kobe ever was and I think Durant will be ahead of him when it's all said and done.

He's definitely in the 15-20 range and maybe in the 10-15 range but he's not a Top 10 guy to me.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm in this group as well. To me, Kobe is the most overrated player in in the last three decades of the NBA. Efficiency, shot selection, his D is way overrated, in 4 of his 5 titles he was the second best player on the team or (in the Finals at least, Pau had a better series vs Boston in 2010). He has one MVP.

He was a poor man's MJ who did everything worse than MJ except for shoot threes. LeBron is already a better player than Kobe ever was and I think Durant will be ahead of him when it's all said and done.

He's definitely in the 15-20 range and maybe in the 10-15 range but he's not a Top 10 guy to me.

100% agree.

 

[Scoe]

Come on, really? Kobe in his prime was one of the top 5 players I've ever seen. AI, while well rated, was not top 5. Defense, offense, shot making, killer instinct, Kobe was pretty much complete.

After MJ retired in 98, AI was the

Come on, really? Kobe in his prime was one of the top 5 players I've ever seen. AI, while well rated, was not top 5. Defense, offense, shot making, killer instinct, Kobe was pretty much complete.

really, come on look at who Kobe played with in his prime as opposed to AI. Better career is Kobe obviously.

 

[Tenspro2002]

Iverson is more well-known, but I think Ray ends up with the better career, based on longevity, dominance of a statistical category, and rings.

 

[Excalibur]

Iverson was better at his peak by a fairly slim margin -- a margin that people think is wider than it really is because (1) Iverson had star power while Allen was buried in Milwaukee and Seattle (2) the memories of the more limited Ray Allen (2008-present) are fresher for everyone.

Allen's career accomplishments surpass Iverson's at this point.

 

[boog204]

Not about his personality. I think he is a top five all-time talent, but not not 10 all-time great. I value efficiency above most things. I don't think he has ever shot higher than 48% for a season. His career number is probably around 46%. Considering he spent the first half of his career playing second fiddle to the most dominant post player since Kareem, I would think a person of his talent would either shoot better or rack up assist totals. I doubt he ever averaged more than 6 dimes per game. Jordan shot 50% for his career. Lebron is nearing that number, and Durant is already there. Dr. J shot nearly 51% for his career. Bird was in the upper 40s I believe. When I think of guys in his talent class, he isn't nearly efficient enough for me. But his talent cannot be denied.

Just looked at the stats because I was curious. Kobe is at 45% for his career and his percentage is actually higher than Ray's (Bird was just about 50%). Kobe had three seasons of 6apg or more; the same number as Jordan. I agree with you on the talent vs. efficiency argument, though. Kobe did some things that I've never seen anyone done; Jordan included. However, there was always something missing. I still view him as an all-time great; not sure where I'd slot him but I do think Lebron has already eclipsed him and Durant (once he wins a 'ship or two) will as well.

Still there's no way he's going to go into the Dominique Wilkins comp group. Kobe is way better than that and I dislike him as a person with extreme prejudice.

 

[tzznandrew]

Come on, really? Kobe in his prime was one of the top 5 players I've ever seen. AI, while well rated, was not top 5. Defense, offense, shot making, killer instinct, Kobe was pretty much complete.

Kobe was better than AI. But his defense was overrated after Shaq left, he shot poorly, and his killer instinct was socially constructed. The guy shot very poorly at the end of games (mostly because people knew he wouldn't pass) and he puked all over himself in Game 7 against Boston in 2010, and was only saved by a Perkins injury and Pau playing well.

 

[James]

Kobe bryant is the most skilled 2guard of all time.

 

[Husky25]

Kobe bryant is the most skilled 2guard of all time.

Umm, no.


At the risk of hijacking the thread (Already attempted by bringing Kobe into this discussion), but this simply is no true. There will never be better 2 guard than Michael Jeffrey Jordan. This includes persona, intelligence, and skill on and off the court. It's a package.

 

[tzznandrew]

Umm, no.


At the risk of hijacking the thread (Already attempted by bringing Kobe into this discussion), but this simply is no true. There will never be better 2 guard like Michael Jeffrey Jordan. This includes persona, intelligence, and skill on and off the court. It's a package.

I'm not trying to trash people's knowledge of basketball, but the love affair of Kobe--and the specific phrase "most skilled 2 guard in NBA history"--is ESPN driven. That phrase in particular is a weasel phrase, too. How are you judging "skill"? It's being contrasted with "raw ability" or some nonsense to try to give Kobe an edge against MJ. It's all BS.

I'd take MJ, and Jerry West (imagine him with a 3 point line?), before Kobe. And I'd consider a healthy Elgin Baylor, too, although career-wise Kobe's got him.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Ray may not have been a better basketball player, but he has had a better career, which was the question.
Better movie acting career too.
And better managing money.

 

[Waquoit]

Going back to the original question about who has had the better career, I think the last couple of years say it all. Ray was recruited by the game's best player. Nobody wanted AI even though he could still play. What does that say about his career? His career ended with pity, but not enough to make any team give him a chance. He was a chemistry killer. It's probably true that the "76ers team he took to the finals may have been the weakest finals team ever". But the team they beat to get there was clearly one of the worst teams to ever make a conference final.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The debate between Ray and AI might be a lot closer for average BBall fans IF Ray's Buck hadn't gotten totally jobbed in the Eastern Finals (I can't recall specifics but remember some questionable zebra's ). A decent part of Iverson's legacy is carrying that Sixers team to the finals.

But Iverson won multiple scoring titles in addition to his MVP that year. So regardless of longevity, I think Ray ranks quite a bit below Iverson in greatest NBA players ever. Somehow basketball is different than baseball and career totals are much less important than career peaks. Iverson's peak was higher.

Here is the summary from game 6 of the 2001 Easter Conference finals (Ray had 41)
-------------------------
As promised, Ray Allen didn't let anybody else determine the outcome of Game 6.

Allen tied an NBA playoff record with nine three-pointers and had his own personal 17-0 run before the Milwaukee Bucks withstood a stunning fourth-quarter rally led by Allen Iverson to defeat the Philadelphia 76ers 110-100 Friday night.

Mutombo
Dikembe Mutombo is smothered by Bucks defenders.
AP Photos
NBA.com TV highlights: 28.8+ | ISDN+
The victory tied the Eastern Conference Finals at three games apiece. Game 7 will be Sunday in Philadelphia, with the winner moving on to play the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals.

Allen finished with a career playoff-high 41 points for the Bucks, who let a 33-point lead dip to 10 in the fourth quarter as Iverson was unstoppable. Iverson scored 26 points in the fourth quarter, three shy of the NBA record set by Sleepy Floyd of Golden State in 1987, and finished with 46.

Allen's final two three-pointers were the biggest of the game, coming after Philadelphia had pulled within 10 with 5:14 remaining.

Hitting four consecutive three-point shots, Allen scored 19 straight Milwaukee points over the final 5 minutes of the first quarter and the first 1 minutes of the second. When he was finished, the Bucks had turned a 16-15 lead into a 33-15 edge.

Allen had 25 points at halftime, 31 before the second half was two minutes old. His nine three-pointers tied the NBA record set by Rex Chapman of Phoenix in 1997 and matched by Vince Carter of Toronto against the 76ers on May 11.

In the highest scoring game of the series, the Bucks improved to 3-0 this postseason when facing elimination.

"We just had to keep our composure. We've been known to blow leads," Allen said.

After being forced to play Philadelphia's slowdown style during the previous three games, the Bucks turned this one into an uptempo game as soon as they could.

allen
Allen Iverson almost brought the sixers back from 33 down:
28.8+ | ISDN+
Iverson made his first two shots -- both three-pointers -- but was hit with a technical foul by referee Joey Crawford midway through the first quarter. That turned out to be the moment when the momentum shifted squarely in Milwaukee's favor.

Allen hit the technical free throw for a 17-15 lead, then closed the quarter with a pair of threes. Allen started the second quarter with another three-pointer, then came up with a steal, two foul shots and a three-pointer in transition that made it 33-15.

Glenn Robinson scored his first points of the game on a corner jumper that gave the Bucks a 40-17 lead, and Allen added two more three-pointers over the final 2:04 of the second quarter to give Milwaukee a 60-31 halftime advantage.

Allen began the third quarter with yet another three-pointer, then converted a fast-break layup on which he was fouled by Aaron McKie. He pumped his fists as he lay on the ground, then got up and completed the three-point play.

He later fed Robinson for a three-pointer after Sam Cassell grabbed an offensive rebound, making it 75-46.

Iverson went to the bench with 2:37 left in the third quarter and the 76ers trailing by 28, then came out and had a four-point play, a three-point play, a three-pointer and two foul shots early in the fourth quarter as the Sixers pulled to 84-73 with eight minutes left.

allen
Ray Allen had a spectacular Game 6:
28.8+ | ISDN+
Allen hit his eighth three-pointer with 6:21 left for an 89-75 lead and his ninth with 4:54 left to make it 92-79. Iverson reached 24 points for the quarter by converting a three-point play with 4:37 left, but Milwaukee scored the next four points to end the threat.

Robinson had 22 for the Bucks, and Scott Williams played his best game of the series in scoring 12 points -- including 10 of Milwaukee's first 14.

Williams also delivered a hard foul on Iverson just over two minutes into the game, elbowing Iverson hard in the shoulder as he drove the lane. Williams was called for a flagrant foul and Iverson rubbed his shoulder before going to the foul line and missing his first attempt -- much to the delight of the sellout crowd of 18,717.

Iverson hit three-pointers on his next two touches, but the technical foul seemed to take him out of his rhythm just as Allen was starting to get a groove.

"If we play like we're capable of playing and not let the referees have a hand in the outcome of the game, then we'll have nothing to worry about," Allen had said Thursday.

Turns out Allen was right, although Iverson did all he could to make the Bucks sweat in the fourth quarter

 

[James]

Take jerry west before kobe ? Lol! Kobe wasn't playing against damn accountants. The hate for bean bryant is unreal. I'm not even a fan.

 

[SubbaBub]

It you are making a list of best NBA players AI is above Ray. If you are talking about who had the better career or is a better human being, It's Ray by a half court three.

If you're talking about practice, then you're talkin' 'bout practice.

 

[tzznandrew]

Take jerry west before kobe ? Lol! Kobe wasn't playing against damn accountants. The hate for bean bryant is unreal. I'm not even a fan.

So Wilt Chamberlain was an accountant? And Elgin Baylor? And Bill Russell? And Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? And Oscar Robertson?

Just to name a few.

Those were his contemporaries. We're not talking George Mikan. Jerry West performed like that against real players and real teams.

Jerry West didn't have the advantage to play with modern medicine, and a modern workout regime. But how would Kobe perform in the 60s without those things? And without a 3 point line? But West's era was plenty good.

And suggesting that Kobe is not as historically great as his current supporters seem to suggest is hardly "hate," which in and of itself is a silly and dismissive term. I'm no hater. I concede that Kobe is one of the best players ever. He's just not as good as you, or many others, seem to think. Which is fine--we always overvalue the players directly in front of us, to the detriment of those from the past. Sometimes, those players are as good as we thought (Magic, Bird, MJ), and sometimes, upon reflection, we realize they were great, but not as much as we may have thought. And I think more and more people are starting to realize this with regards to Kobe.

 

[uconnbill]

Ray was a better teammate but Al was a better overall scorer.

I would take Ray in a heartbeat because of being a better teammate

 

[champs99and04]

I'm with you. I think Kobe is overrated by many many people. He's a very good player historically, but was never the best player in the game, even for a season (yes, even when he averaged 35 ppg). He is the greatest volume scorer ever.

Also, his defense is wildly overrated. There was a time, when he played with Shaq, where, yes, he was a fantastic defender. But once Shaq left, so did the D.

He has 5 titles, I'll concede that. And he earned them, too. But he won 3 with Shaq, and he needed Perkins to tear his ACL to win his 5th.

I agree with pretty much all of this, but I think that last part is unfair. For starters, there is no way to know what would have happened if Perkins hadn't torn his ACL (though I tend to agree the Celtics probably would have won), and secondly, you can apply the injury card to hundreds of different series' throughout the history of the NBA, and it could just as easily be said that a healthy Andrew Bynum could have swung the series in '08 (and he wasn't full-strength in '10, either).

 

[tzznandrew]

I agree with pretty much all of this, but I think that last part is unfair. For starters, there is no way to know what would have happened if Perkins hadn't torn his ACL (though I tend to agree the Celtics probably would have won), and secondly, you can apply the injury card to hundreds of different series' throughout the history of the NBA, and it could just as easily be said that a healthy Andrew Bynum could have swung the series in '08 (and he wasn't full-strength in '10, either).

Fair enough on that point. My thought is more that he performed horribly in that Game 7, and I should have stuck with that.

 

[Husky25]

Elgin Baylor and The Logo cannot be compared to Bryant if only because of era. They probably had more impact on the game as a whole, but it is at least debatable.

Ray Allen has had a better Career than Iverson and its not close, but there were also different expectations. Iverson was expected to come in a save a franchise. Ray Allen was expected to be a complimentary starter with the Big Dog and later, Sam Cassell. As a result, Allen was allowed to grow into a leader. Iverson had to be one on day one. Ray is also still playing.

 

[tzznandrew]

Elgin Baylor and The Logo cannot be compared to Bryant if only because of era. They probably had more impact on the game as a whole, but it is at least debatable.

You don't get to just say, carte blanche, the people playing now are better. We can compare. There are stats, like PER, that look at how these guys did against their peers (and some of them don't back me up--Kobe has a higher career PER than West, for one). But also, West played with and against numerous players from the 60s and 70s, and performed well against them. And they played against players from the 70s and 80s. And they played against players from the 90s. And there wasn't a sudden drop. West played against Kareem. Kareem played against Bird and Jordan. Jordan played against Shaq. Shaq played with Kobe.

 

[Joobie]

Ray Allen picked 5th in the NBA draft in 1996, is still playing. Is still hitting winning shots. Is still a member of a championship caliber team. Allen Iverson,picked 1st in the 1996 draft, is DONE. He's a cartoon of what he once was. People remember him more for his practice rant than for his game. In 2014 Ray Allen is still relevant in the world of basketball & Allen Iverson ISN'T!

Enough said...

 

[Dave Carlson]

Going back to the original question about who has had the better career, I think the last couple of years say it all. Ray was recruited by the game's best player. Nobody wanted AI even though he could still play. What does that say about his career? His career ended with pity, but not enough to make any team give him a chance. He was a chemistry killer. It's probably true that the "76ers team he took to the finals may have been the weakest finals team ever". But the team they beat to get there was clearly one of the worst teams to ever make a conference final.

You mean the Bucks team with Ray Allen, Sam Cassell and Glenn Robinson that won more games and went further in the playoffs than any Ray Allen-led team ever? Let me see if I understand your logic: if only Allen Iverson and his team of role players had overcome a team that had a better star player than Ray Allen, you would be more impressed with Allen Iverson carrying his team to the finals. In the context of comparing Allen Iverson (unfavorably) to Ray Allen. That's just fantastic!

 

[Husky25]

You don't get to just say, carte blanche, the people playing now are better. We can compare. There are stats, like PER, that look at how these guys did against their peers (and some of them don't back me up--Kobe has a higher career PER than West, for one). But also, West played with and against numerous players from the 60s and 70s, and performed well against them. And they played against players from the 70s and 80s. And they played against players from the 90s. And there wasn't a sudden drop. West played against Kareem. Kareem played against Bird and Jordan. Jordan played against Shaq. Shaq played with Kobe.

I didn't say one era was better than the other or that those playing in a given era are better. I said they cannot be compared. I'm not sure how PER is calculated but does it take into account rule changes? How about referee bias? You can boil down statistics any which way you choose, but none of them are perfect. If distilled carefully enough, most can support what ever argument you are presenting.

 

[tzznandrew]

I didn't say one era was better than the other or that those playing in a given era are better. I said they cannot be compared. I'm not sure how PER is calculated but does it take into account rule changes? How about referee bias? You can boil down statistics any which way you choose, but none of them are perfect. If distilled carefully enough, most can support what ever argument you are presenting.

I get what you're saying. But I think it's a cop-out to suggest we can't compare players. Sure, nothing is perfect when comparing players of different eras...but nothing is perfect when comparing players from the same era.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Going back to the original question about who has had the better career, I think the last couple of years say it all. Ray was recruited by the game's best player. Nobody wanted AI even though he could still play. What does that say about his career?

What a strange attempt at a point. It doesn't say anything about his career. Miami wanted Ray because he's a (deadly) spot up three point shooter. Iverson is (was?) an undersized scoring guard. What does the fact that Miami wanted Ray - or the fact that Ray's primary skill has a longer shelf life than Iverson's - possibly say about their respective careers? I don't think anything.