Best WCBB Player of All Time: Breanna Stewart

[Huskybass]

To your point about UCONN riches, Phee would have some very stiff competition for that 6th man spot:
Rebecca, Kerry, Swin, Svet, Morgan, & Nykesha.

Shea Ralph needs to be in that conversation as well, methinks.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Fair point.
Counter point: Mount Rushmore as originally designed was intended to hold 5. Consensus has never been achieved as to who should occupy the 5th spot, which is kind of like the discussion we are having. FDR would get my vote for that 5th spot.

I would argue that they never reached consensus on the 4th. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln are givens. Kinda of like UConn.

 

[SVCBeercats]

What in the hell are you talking about?
She was #2 and got votes for #1. Did you even watch the video?

Those people live in the past and have their favorites. I'll bet on Stewart led team all day long and rake in the cash.

 

[SVCBeercats]

For the sake of discussion would like for you to consider the collegiate resume of Cheryl Miller.

A Stewart led team would win every time. A mobile, hostile, and agile Inspector Gadget would shutdown Miller.

 

[bballnut90]

Again, my issue is not with it being up for debate. Even if we agreed on the criteria in performing the best at the most important moments, there is debate. Certainly there is added debate over whether that should be the criteria. My issue is how deceptive you are in referring to Stewart's "luxury of teammates," and you did it again.

Only the freshmen year is pertinent to this. So what if Stewart played with Jefferson and Tuck her junior and senior years? Big deal. Certianly they could have won with Moore, Taurasi or a handful of others as well, just as the '09 and '10 teams could win with Stewart, Taurasi and a handful of others as well. The team of Taurasi's freshmen year? Well, that's where you are being most coy.

Bird was voted the best point guard in college basketball that year. The junior Bird was better than the junior Hartley. So what if Ralph and Abrosimova went down? The team played better afterwards with a simplified roster because they still had Cash, Williams, Bird and Jones. Let me repeat that, until the Final Four they played better without Abrosimova than with her, the '01 roster was just that stacked. The rest were not the AAs of Ralph and Abrosimova? Well of course not. They were juniors and no one is going to vote seven AAs for the same team. Had Ralph and Abrosimova not played that whole year, two or more of the remaining cast yet would have made at least 2nd team AA, at least one or more would have been first. No question as evidenced in their subsequent histories.

You are probably the only person who thinks that the future Olympians of Bird (also Lieberman award winner that year), Cash and Jones (with the injury prone Williams actually being the most efficient player and the record block holder Schumacher) was not as talented as the squad Stewart played with her freshmen year. But I don't think you really believe that, you are just being disingenuous to reinforce your point when you don't have to be. You are right, Stewart's claim is debatable, but not because she had the "luxury" of better teammates when she had her toughest mission to accomplish.

Yeah, they should've won in 2001, I'm not questioning that. The team was less than the sum of its parts for whatever reason even though they returned virtually the exact same roster but mixed in DT. DT had immensely talented teammates, but they didn't perform up to par that year. Looking back which group of players had more talent? 2001 for sure. Who would I rather have as teammates at that point in time? 2013 no question. Faris/Dolson/KML were much more polished products than the likes of Cash/Jones/Williams even though those 3 went on to be much better pros than the 2013 crop.

You're also underestimating the importance of losing BOTH Ralph and Abrosimova late in the season. Whether you argue they were better without them or not, that's a major blow that Taurasi's team endured on 2 separate occasions that Stewart's didn't. And you're overrating Schumacher. She had 2 standout games that people remember, but in reality her UCONN career pales in comparison to a player like Kia Stokes who was buried on the bench in 2012-13 because she had better players in front of her.

Also, lastly, the better teammates debate between Taurasi/Stewart...the biggest argument is that Taurasi worked with far less talent in 2003/2004 than Stewart did in any of her 4 years. Stewart had the better freshman season, I'm not questioning that. But she clearly had a ton of talent around her all 4 years.

 

[bballnut90]

I will make this my last post on the subject. It's because you are such a knowledgeable poster that I made my disingenuous comment. For WBB as a whole you are more knowledgeable than I am. I suspected you knew better. I retracted that comment but, after a night's sleep, I do not.

Part of the evidence you are so knowledgeable is that I have seen you consider the context of numbers over and over again. You even did so in this debate. Yet your argument is fortified only considering numbers out of context. I suspect you know better.

Let us start with Taurasi herself. Bird once claimed she was the best player on the team even as a freshman (as an aside, don't you think that just might possible cause unintentional chemistry problems?). She certainly seemed to be the best player in the Regionals that year, but she did not even make FOY for the Big East. That was Brunson, a good player, but no Taurasi. Were people fools to make Brunson FOY? No, because context matters. Taurasi was not in the context where she could overshadow a player like Brunson until late in the season.

UConn played it's worst against Notre Dame in Notre Dame, with Abrosimova, and in the final half of the season without her. In between they played Notre Dame than they had with Abrosimova, including the first half of the FF game. They played that first half well even with minimum help from Taurasi, who had shown in the Regionals she was the best player on the team, at least by Bird's estimation. My oh my, how could they have played that well in the first half without the "luxury" of a supporting cast like Stewart had her freshman year?

When Stewart stepped on the court for the Final Four there was only one of her teammates that had been in a championship game. Faris did play a role in that game as a freshman, but you could hardly consider Stewart's cast as battle tested. Taurasi stepped on the court for the Final Four with everyone of her fellow starters having already won a championship game, two of them as starters in that game. They played like it in the first half against Notre Dame, but then frankly relied on Taurasi too much in the second half, or at least Taurasi tried to take more on than she should have.

Notre Dame was a problem for UConn in 2001, but not the "elephant in the head" problem they had become for UConn in 2013. Yet here comes Stewart of having the "luxury" of only one experienced championship player as teammates instead of five who all played significant roles against a Tennessee team with champions themselves in Catchings and Randall. I guess you must see such an overwhelming advantage in previous championship experience as a handicap. Unlike with Taurasi in 2001, UConn absolutely needed Stewart in 2013 in order to win. Taurasi went on to pull off perhaps a greater feat in 2003 than what Stewart did in 2013, but no way, for whatever reason, did Taurasi rise to the occasion as a freshman in the Final Four as Stewart did. The greater championship experience and future college, pro and Olympic stardom of her teammates was in actuality a greater "luxury" than what Stewart had for her freshman year.

Stats used to be a big part of one of my jobs. I know the importance of numbers; I know the importance of context for those numbers. I know, for example, that neither Chong nor Faris are better distributors than Bird by virtue of their A/T numbers, but rather they played in the context of a perimeter oriented offense rather than the post oriented offense presented to Bird. You know the importance of context behind numbers in many of your arguments, it is "laughable" that you do not do so for this .... or disingenuous.

If you rewatch the 1st half of the 2001 Notre Dame Final Four game, you'll see that players like Schumacher and Conlon stepped up in a massive way that was out of the ordinary for those 2. Riley was out with foul trouble and ND played arguably its worst half of the season. Still, UCONN did have a lot of talent in its lineup and they played outstanding basketball, even without Taurasi scoring.

And I'm not sure why you bring up championship experience in 2013 when the matchup was in the Final Four. All of Hartley, Dolson, KML, and Faris had played huge minutes in previous Final Four(s) and were double figure scorers in the previous Final Four game vs. ND. They weren't a wide eyed group that lacked experience. Stewart elevated the group to a title, but they were certainly capable of winning even without her. We saw them throw away a game they had essentially won already at ND in triple overtime with minimal contributions from Stewart. We saw them go toe to toe with Brittney Griner and Baylor with zero contributions from Stewart. We saw 4 starters return from a team that lost in overtime to Notre Dame the year prior in the Final Four, with the lone player not returning being Tiffany Hayes who played poorly that game. UCONN was stacked in 2013 and a major title threat, with or without Stewart.

 

[warbler1055]

I gave up!!! There are so many extraordinary players at UConn through the years that it's impossible to pick the GOAT!!!

 

[CocoHusky]

I would argue that they never reached consensus on the 4th. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln are givens. Kinda of like UConn.

Well Mount Rushmore is a National Park, I'm not sure you need consensus to put the face of the President who started that National Park thing.

 

[CocoHusky]

If you rewatch the 1st half of the 2001 Notre Dame Final Four game, you'll see that players like Schumacher and Conlon stepped up in a massive way that was out of the ordinary for those 2. Riley was out with foul trouble and ND played arguably its worst half of the season. Still, UCONN did have a lot of talent in its lineup and they played outstanding basketball, even without Taurasi scoring.

And I'm not sure why you bring up championship experience in 2013 when the matchup was in the Final Four. All of Hartley, Dolson, KML, and Faris had played huge minutes in previous Final Four(s) and were double figure scorers in the previous Final Four game vs. ND. They weren't a wide eyed group that lacked experience. Stewart elevated the group to a title, but they were certainly capable of winning even without her. We saw them throw away a game they had essentially won already at ND in triple overtime with minimal contributions from Stewart. We saw them go toe to toe with Brittney Griner and Baylor with zero contributions from Stewart. We saw 4 starters return from a team that lost in overtime to Notre Dame the year prior in the Final Four, with the lone player not returning being Tiffany Hayes who played poorly that game. UCONN was stacked in 2013 and a major title threat, with or without Stewart.

That UCONN team also went into Stanford (#1) at the time and absolutely curb stomped the Cardinal 61-35 with Stewie not starting.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Well Mount Rushmore is a National Park, I'm not sure you need consensus to put the face of the President who started that National Park thing.

Fair point.

 

[bluedevil]

This is like the argument of who was the best president..Lincoln or Washington? You can argue either way forever....

 

[MilfordHusky]

You know you have an embarrassment of riches when the person with

• No. 5 in career points (2,342)
• No. 6 in career scoring average (16.7)

and 2-time All-American is not even mentioned in the top 15

Lou was a 3-time WBCA All-American.

 

[pvdoggy]

Lou was a 3-time WBCA All-American.

Even better! How many 3-times All-American can say they don't get any consideration for the top 15 at their school. None?

 

[mhshuskies]

Go to the source, what would Geno say?

 

[CTrefugee]

Go to the source, what would Geno say?

He's too smart to get into this one.

 

[CocoHusky]

Go to the source, what would Geno say?

Geno has said that he doesn't know how 2 former National Player of the Year (Jen & Kara) not even make the top 10 all time for UCONN WCBB.

 

[eebmg]

Geno has said that he doesn't know how 2 former National Player of the Year (Jen & Kara) not even make the top 10 all time for UCONN WCBB.

In the old days, 1 NPOY may have sufficed but not now. Paige better get started early.

 

[Los24]

I did not read every comment but it seems many folks make this more complicated than it needs to be by comparing other players the great players played with. If you were starting a franchise and all the in questions great players were available coming fresh out of college who would you pick to start your team? That's it, all the other stuff doesn't matter....

 

[CTBballfan243]

For me it’s Taurasi, followed by Moore, and then Stewart. To me, Taurasi’s skill level, finesse, and a compete level set her head and shoulder above the rest. In addition, based on the eye test, she is by far the Greatest WBB player I have ever seen.

 

[reno tony]

I did not read every comment but it seems many folks make this more complicated than it needs to be by comparing other players the great players played with. If you were starting a franchise and all the in questions great players were available coming fresh out of college who would you pick to start your team? That's it, all the other stuff doesn't matter....

Are you trying to complicate this whole process with simplicity?

 

[Waquoit]

DT led a less than spectacular crew to 2 championships, while be the singular focal point of every single opponent.

You can't ignore the tie-breaker. As a frosh, Stewie led a team of pretenders to the NCAA title. As a frosh, DT shot her favored veteran team out of the Final Four. I know we like to pretend these things didn't happen on the Yard, but it did and shouldn't be forgotten if you are making a comparison.

 

[meyers7]

Anytime a debate of this nature comes up, there will NEVER be a consensus. The person that sees the glass half full is correct as is the person that sees it as half empty. Until we can all agree on a standard of measurement
to use a measuring fairly across the board, we will NEVER come anywhere close to agreeing who is top 4 (Mount Rushmore), top 10 or even top 25.

Because we all have a different standard of greatness, a different memories of who what when why and how. This is a debate that could last the entire length of the season.....and beyond. If someone has a different set of players that is different that yours, how can you call their list wrong?
It's all perception. Especially if you didn't see/remember an older player someone has listed.

Moriah Jefferson ( I love Mo. She is one of my all time favorites) came in at #10. How many of us would put her on the top 10 list? If we all posted who was on our respective Mount Rushmores, two players would be on every mount submitted, Taurasi and Moore. There would probably be 10-15 other players listed as the other two. My Mount Rushmore has 5 players on it.

In the SNY TV show that doggy posted, someone mentioned that they would like to know who Geno's top 10 players are, so would I.

We actually did a poll a year or 2 ago on UCONN top players. Ended up like so

1. Stewart
2. Taurasi
3. Moore
4. Bird
5. Charles
6. Lobo
7. Jefferson
8. Rizzotti
9. Sales
10. Abrosimova

Be interesting to do another one some time to see how/if KLS and Collier show/move up on the lists.

 

[j66kicker]

We actually did a poll a year or 2 ago on UCONN top players. Ended up like so

1. Stewart
2. Taurasi
3. Moore
4. Bird
5. Charles
6. Lobo
7. Jefferson
8. Rizzotti
9. Sales
10. Abrosimova

Be interesting to do another one some time to see how/if KLS and Collier show/move up on the lists.

A quickie way to do that is just ask who does KLS or Collier bump off this list. On my list, nobody. My first interview question for top 10 wannabes is, "What did you do to bring an NC to UConn?" "I played on Stewie's team when I was a freshman" is not a satisfactory answer.

 

[bballnut90]

A quickie way to do that is just ask who does KLS or Collier bump off this list. On my list, nobody. My first interview question for top 10 wannabes is, "What did you do to bring an NC to UConn?" "I played on Stewie's team when I was a freshman" is not a satisfactory answer.

I could see them nudging Sales or Abrosimova based on sheer production and the 4 Final Fours but it is hard to assess since they consistently came up short in the F4 over their careers.

I also think people sorely undervalue Jefferson and inflate Bird's UCONN career based mostly off post collegiate achievements. Both were great, but by almost all tangible measures Jefferson had the superior career IMO.

 

[j66kicker]

I could see them nudging Sales or Abrosimova based on sheer production and the 4 Final Fours but it is hard to assess since they consistently came up short in the F4 over their careers.

I also think people sorely undervalue Jefferson and inflate Bird's UCONN career based mostly off post collegiate achievements. Both were great, but by almost all tangible measures Jefferson had the superior career IMO.

Geno said once, "Stars make the play to win the game." That's what Abrosimova did (he said it about her specifically), not to mention Bird who was a cold-blooded killer at the buzzer. And our first NC vs. Tennessee doesn't happen without freshman Sales taking over and keeping us in the game most of the whole first half while our "stars" were on the bench with foul trouble. No way those 2 get bumped off my list by KLS or Collier. "Production" is fine, but show me the money.

 

[intlzncster]

You can't ignore the tie-breaker. As a frosh, Stewie led a team of pretenders to the NCAA title. As a frosh, DT shot her favored veteran team out of the Final Four. I know we like to pretend these things didn't happen on the Yard, but it did and shouldn't be forgotten if you are making a comparison.

A team of pretenders? A team that featured upper classmen like Dolson, Faris, Hartley and Doty? Not to mention super soph KML. That characterization invalidates your point alone.

Yes, D had one bad game in the FF. Mind you, that was after the loss of some severe talent late season and ingame that totally changed the dynamic of the team on the fly.

But DTs accomplishments Jr/Sr year outweigh and outshine that. It's not even close. Some of the greatest work I've seen in WCBB.

 

[eebmg]

Geno said once, "Stars make the play to win the game." That's what Abrosimova did (he said it about her specifically), not to mention Bird who was a cold-blooded killer at the buzzer. And our first NC vs. Tennessee doesn't happen without freshman Sales taking over and keeping us in the game most of the whole first half while our "stars" were on the bench with foul trouble. No way those 2 get bumped off my list by KLS or Collier. "Production" is fine, but show me the money.

Pheesa in particular had strong FF elimination games (except her sophmore season) so she is hardly to blame. It is hard if you are not the primary ball handler to 'take' over a game on the offensive end. I think Pheesa has also seperated herself from Lou a bit (especially if a running memory of how their 1st season in the WNBA can affect opinion) and I would put her in front of Abrosimova and Sales.

 

[Waquoit]

A team of pretenders? A team that featured upper classmen like Dolson, Faris, Hartley and Doty? Not to mention super soph KML. That characterization invalidates your point alone.

Not my term. It came from an (in)famous headline at the time. Plus, that team really didn't do squat against the varsity all season until Stewie kicked it up several notches late.

But DTs accomplishments Jr/Sr year outweigh and outshine that. It's not even close. Some of the greatest work I've seen in WCBB.

True. I love DT but it's not like she didn't have any players. Kelly Schumacher was immense in the FF. And she had a better WNBA career than KML and Tuck put together. And while Mo Jeff was great, I think others get more credit than they really deserve because Stewie was such a team player.

 

[Zanzman]

I have a hard time not picking taurasi with what she did her junior and senior year

 

[intlzncster]

Not my term. It came from an (in)famous headline at the time. Plus, that team really didn't do squat against the varsity all season until Stewie kicked it up several notches late.

True. I love DT but it's not like she didn't have any players. Kelly Schumacher was immense in the FF. And she had a better WNBA career than KML and Tuck put together. And while Mo Jeff was great, I think others get more credit than they really deserve because Stewie was such a team player.

Fair, I'm not trying to denigrate Breanna either. She was a god in college. And the most decorated WCBB athlete ever. For good reason.

I just personally throw my hat in the ring with DT. I've a hard time finding a player who elevated as many players' games as she did.