Best WCBB Player of All Time: Breanna Stewart

[phil sampieri]

You have to look at the quality of players they played with year by year. Comparing their freshman teams, you have:
DT-she had a ton of talent on her team but they mid-season lost a strong POY candidate in Svetlana Abrosimova, then they lost Shea Ralph who was a strong contributor as a RS-senior (averaged 11ppg). That was a huge blow. By the 2nd half of the season the team only had 1 player who would make an AA team, and that was Sue Bird on 3rd team. Sue Bird back then was not the Sue Bird she would be come.
Even more than that, the level of competition in WCBB that year was also at an all time high, as the incredible 2001 class were seniors and the loaded 2004 class were freshmen. The level of competition was deep and strong, with probably 7-8 teams all having a realistic shot of winning it all. DT famously came up short against ND with a dreadful shooting night, plus Bird was outplayed by Ivey and ND went on to win.

Moore-she had a talented roster, but Charles and Montgomery were not nearly as good in 08 as they were in 09. Despite somehow making an AA team, Renee shot 37% from the field and 31% from deep. She didn't have strong decision making or shot selection skills needed for UCONN to win it all. Tina Charles was inconsistent and in Geno's doghouse for much of the year. She clearly had potential but didn't start to put it together until her junior year where she took off after that. Back then she wasn't the consensus top player in her class. Maya Moore was far and away the team's best player, averaging 17.8 points, 7.6 rpg, 3 apg and shot 54% from the floor and 42% from deep. Also, the competition that year was particularly strong too. 2008 had 7-8 really really good teams capable of winning it all including Tennessee, Stanford, Rutgers, Maryland, UCONN, LSU and North Carolina. And Moore led them to a 36-2 record where they ran through several of these teams and entered the NCAAs at the #1 overall team. They came up short in the Final Four, but Moore had a strong game with 20 points and 9 rebounds. Montgomery was probably the biggest reason for their struggles that game, as she shot just 4-18 from the floor and 1-9 from deep.

Stewart-she came in and joined a roster with everyone back besides Tiffany Hayes from a Final Four team that lost in overtime to ND. Stewart had a very up and down freshman season. Spent time in Geno's dog house and had moments of brilliance and moments of really struggling. Keep in mind, back then a lot of people on this board were praising how good Tennessee's Bashaara Graves was in comparison to UCONN's freshmen. Funny to think about now.
There were a lot of moving pieces on the roster, but ultimately it was a loaded group of players, and they were very good. Stefanie Dolson started to really put it together as a junior and earned 3rd Team AP-AA honors, while KML broke out as the team's leading scorer and was a 2nd Team AP-AA while shooting 49% from deep. She also had Kelly Faris as a senior who was the ultimate glue player for UCONN and likely was in consideration for an AA team. Point being, UCONN was immensely talented and legitimate title threat in 2013 even without Stewart. In the Baylor game, UCONN led much of the way and lost a 6 point hard fought battle with Stewart playing 7 minutes and not scoring. UCONN also choked away a triple overtime loss to Notre Dame with just 5 points and 1-7 shooting from Stewart. Once Stewart found her stride, UCONN transformed and dominated the competition, with Stewart being the standout star in the NCAAs.

Also worth noting, there were only 3 title threats that year in Baylor, UCONN and Notre Dame. The three of those teams only had 2 combined losses to outside competition, and it was Baylor losing to Stanford with Sims missing, and the biggest upset in NCAA history when Louisville stunned Baylor. The competition was not deep that season.

Which season of the 3 is most impressive? I'd say Moore's, hands down, even with Stewart stepping up on the biggest stage. But that's up for debate depending on what you value most.

Now, if you look at their sophomore years...all 3 have similar resume's although DT's is probably weakest since she was only a 2nd Team AA and not a POY like Moore/Stewart. All 3 teams went undefeated. All 3 had multiple AA teammates (Cash/Bird, Montgomery/Charles, Hartley/Dolson). All 3 were excellent.

Fast forward to their junior years. All 3 again are comparable since they won a title and earned POY awards, but DT probably takes the cake here going 37-1 with a young roster and sweeping all the POY awards. Moore split POY awards with Charles in an undefeated campaign, and Stewart won almost all POY awards but didn't have an undefeated season. Moore/Stewart were playing with other AAs (Jefferson/KML) or another POY (Charles). Not a lot of differentiation between these three this year, but DT's route was the hardest so she gets a slight edge.

Senior year I'd give Stewart the nod for having the best season. Moore's was spectacular even though they were upset by ND and came up short. DT's was honestly underwhelming until UCONN went on to win the whole thing. That said, Moore and DT didn't play with any other AAs. Stewart played with the likely 2nd best player in the country in Jefferson and a 2nd team AA in Tuck. Still, I'd give the nod to Stewart.

Add all that up and what do you have? Not a lot of differentiation between the 3. Ultimately like I said, choosing the best comes down to what you value. Is it championships? Winning in the Final Four? Individual stats? Being able to carry a less talented team? Any of those players you can build a strong argument for based on their credentials and resumes. The fact that Moore's biggest negative is coming up short in 2 games where she scored a combined 56 points shows how little difference there is between her and Stewart or her and Taurasi or her and any of the other players I mentioned.

So in summary, while I think Stewart has a strong case for being the best WCBB player ever, so do several other players so it isn't cut and dry.

 

[phil sampieri]

I am curious how many all-americans were on Stewie's team last two years and how many on DT's

 

[pvdoggy]

All of these subject have been covered in separate threads with a few controversial conclusions:
Moriah Jefferson better "collegiate" career than Sue Bird which makes her best UCONN PG ever.
UCONN Mount Rushmore=DT, Maya, Stewie, Tina, & Sue
UCONN 2nd Tier of Mount Rushmore= Rebecca, Kara, Precious, Jen, Swin would be better than any other school's top 5 with the exception of TN and USC.
UCONN 3rd tier of Mount Rushmore= Moriah, Dolson, Renee, Napheesa, Kerry never mind you get the point. UCONN has had some very very good players and it is very hard to achieve consensus on #1 so good luck with top 10-15.

You know you have an embarrassment of riches when the person with

• No. 5 in career points (2,342)
• No. 6 in career scoring average (16.7)

and 2-time All-American is not even mentioned in the top 15

 

[Carnac]

UConn’s Mt. Rushmore of players has DT, Maya and Stewie on it. Spirited debate about the 4th on the Mount, or a player to be named later. I’ve long maintained UConn’s all-time starting 5 is Sue, DT, Maya, Tina and Stewie. And I guess I now have to make Phee the 6th man.

UConn is an embarrassment of riches. Life is good when you go to bed a UConn fan.

I’m ok with any Mount Rushmore as long as it Taurasi, Moore and Stewart. We can debate on the 4th. My Mount Rushmore has 5 players on it. It’s too hard to name just 4.

Jonathan, life is even better when you “wake up” a UConn fan. As some of us get older, we put a higher premium on “waking up” as opposed to going to bed.

 

[CocoHusky]

You know you have an embarrassment of riches when the person with

• No. 5 in career points (2,342)
• No. 6 in career scoring average (16.7)and 2-time All-American is not even mentioned in the top 15

The only think I'm embarrassed about is all the hate and envy for this program. Yea there are going to be some very good players left off no matter where you draw the line: KML, KLS, Bria, Kia, Gabby or even Azura in her single season at UCONN where she was not a starter.

 

[JonathanXIV]

All of these subject have been covered in separate threads with a few controversial conclusions:
Moriah Jefferson better "collegiate" career than Sue Bird which makes her best UCONN PG ever.
UCONN Mount Rushmore=DT, Maya, Stewie, Tina, & Sue
UCONN 2nd Tier of Mount Rushmore= Rebecca, Kara, Precious, Jen, Swin would be better than any other school's top 5 with the exception of TN and USC.
UCONN 3rd tier of Mount Rushmore= Moriah, Dolson, Renee, Napheesa, Kerry never mind you get the point. UCONN has had some very very good players and it is very hard to achieve consensus on #1 so good luck with top 10-15.

Minor issue with your post. Mount Rushmore, by definition, has four slots. Starting lineups have 5. I'll leave my small disagreements with your second and third tier for another time.

 

[CTrefugee]

Breanna Stewart
4 time National Champion
4 time MOP of the Final 4
3 time Consensus First Team All American
3 time Consensus National Player of the Year

No other WCBB player has a resume that comes close to Breanna's. Change my mind.

I agree. Best all around - Stewey
Best shooter from anyplace on the floor - Delle Donne ?
Best passer - Diana
Best defender - ??

 

[CocoHusky]

I am curious how many all-americans were on Stewie's team last two years and how many on DT's

Stewie played her Junior & Senior seasons with 6 players that were AA or would eventually achieve AA status. KML, Moriah, Morgan, Napheesa, Gabby, & KLS. In addition Stewie had two players one of which was NDPOY (Kia) and one that should probably have also been. (Kiah).

The three best players to play with DT during her junior and senior campaigns were Barbara Turner, Maria Conlon & Ann Strother none of who achieved AA status.

Definitively DT had a bigger burden of dragging her teammates to the last two championship than Stewie did. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up.

 

[CocoHusky]

Minor issue with your post. Mount Rushmore, by definition, has four slots. Starting lineups have 5. I'll leave my small disagreements with your second and third tier for another time.

Fair point.
Counter point: Mount Rushmore as originally designed was intended to hold 5. Consensus has never been achieved as to who should occupy the 5th spot, which is kind of like the discussion we are having. FDR would get my vote for that 5th spot.

 

[CocoHusky]

I agree. Best all around - Stewey
Best shooter from anyplace on the floor - Delle Donne ?
Best passer - Diana
Best defender - ??

Uhm..
Best all Around-Stewie I can see that.
Best Shooter from any place of the floor-Maya. EDD shot better than 50% exactly 1 season during college Maya never shot below 52%.
Best passer=DT hands down although MoJeff has more career assists.
Best UCONN defender-Kelly Faris although Nykesha Sales career steals record is probably the most unreachable of all UCONN WCBB records.

 

[Huskybass]

To your point about UCONN riches, Phee would have some very stiff competition for that 6th man spot:
Rebecca, Kerry, Swin, Svet, Morgan, & Nykesha.

Shea Ralph needs to be in that conversation as well, methinks.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Fair point.
Counter point: Mount Rushmore as originally designed was intended to hold 5. Consensus has never been achieved as to who should occupy the 5th spot, which is kind of like the discussion we are having. FDR would get my vote for that 5th spot.

I would argue that they never reached consensus on the 4th. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln are givens. Kinda of like UConn.

 

[SVCBeercats]

What in the hell are you talking about?
She was #2 and got votes for #1. Did you even watch the video?

Those people live in the past and have their favorites. I'll bet on Stewart led team all day long and rake in the cash.

 

[SVCBeercats]

For the sake of discussion would like for you to consider the collegiate resume of Cheryl Miller.

A Stewart led team would win every time. A mobile, hostile, and agile Inspector Gadget would shutdown Miller.

 

[bballnut90]

Again, my issue is not with it being up for debate. Even if we agreed on the criteria in performing the best at the most important moments, there is debate. Certainly there is added debate over whether that should be the criteria. My issue is how deceptive you are in referring to Stewart's "luxury of teammates," and you did it again.

Only the freshmen year is pertinent to this. So what if Stewart played with Jefferson and Tuck her junior and senior years? Big deal. Certianly they could have won with Moore, Taurasi or a handful of others as well, just as the '09 and '10 teams could win with Stewart, Taurasi and a handful of others as well. The team of Taurasi's freshmen year? Well, that's where you are being most coy.

Bird was voted the best point guard in college basketball that year. The junior Bird was better than the junior Hartley. So what if Ralph and Abrosimova went down? The team played better afterwards with a simplified roster because they still had Cash, Williams, Bird and Jones. Let me repeat that, until the Final Four they played better without Abrosimova than with her, the '01 roster was just that stacked. The rest were not the AAs of Ralph and Abrosimova? Well of course not. They were juniors and no one is going to vote seven AAs for the same team. Had Ralph and Abrosimova not played that whole year, two or more of the remaining cast yet would have made at least 2nd team AA, at least one or more would have been first. No question as evidenced in their subsequent histories.

You are probably the only person who thinks that the future Olympians of Bird (also Lieberman award winner that year), Cash and Jones (with the injury prone Williams actually being the most efficient player and the record block holder Schumacher) was not as talented as the squad Stewart played with her freshmen year. But I don't think you really believe that, you are just being disingenuous to reinforce your point when you don't have to be. You are right, Stewart's claim is debatable, but not because she had the "luxury" of better teammates when she had her toughest mission to accomplish.

Yeah, they should've won in 2001, I'm not questioning that. The team was less than the sum of its parts for whatever reason even though they returned virtually the exact same roster but mixed in DT. DT had immensely talented teammates, but they didn't perform up to par that year. Looking back which group of players had more talent? 2001 for sure. Who would I rather have as teammates at that point in time? 2013 no question. Faris/Dolson/KML were much more polished products than the likes of Cash/Jones/Williams even though those 3 went on to be much better pros than the 2013 crop.

You're also underestimating the importance of losing BOTH Ralph and Abrosimova late in the season. Whether you argue they were better without them or not, that's a major blow that Taurasi's team endured on 2 separate occasions that Stewart's didn't. And you're overrating Schumacher. She had 2 standout games that people remember, but in reality her UCONN career pales in comparison to a player like Kia Stokes who was buried on the bench in 2012-13 because she had better players in front of her.

Also, lastly, the better teammates debate between Taurasi/Stewart...the biggest argument is that Taurasi worked with far less talent in 2003/2004 than Stewart did in any of her 4 years. Stewart had the better freshman season, I'm not questioning that. But she clearly had a ton of talent around her all 4 years.

 

[bballnut90]

I will make this my last post on the subject. It's because you are such a knowledgeable poster that I made my disingenuous comment. For WBB as a whole you are more knowledgeable than I am. I suspected you knew better. I retracted that comment but, after a night's sleep, I do not.

Part of the evidence you are so knowledgeable is that I have seen you consider the context of numbers over and over again. You even did so in this debate. Yet your argument is fortified only considering numbers out of context. I suspect you know better.

Let us start with Taurasi herself. Bird once claimed she was the best player on the team even as a freshman (as an aside, don't you think that just might possible cause unintentional chemistry problems?). She certainly seemed to be the best player in the Regionals that year, but she did not even make FOY for the Big East. That was Brunson, a good player, but no Taurasi. Were people fools to make Brunson FOY? No, because context matters. Taurasi was not in the context where she could overshadow a player like Brunson until late in the season.

UConn played it's worst against Notre Dame in Notre Dame, with Abrosimova, and in the final half of the season without her. In between they played Notre Dame than they had with Abrosimova, including the first half of the FF game. They played that first half well even with minimum help from Taurasi, who had shown in the Regionals she was the best player on the team, at least by Bird's estimation. My oh my, how could they have played that well in the first half without the "luxury" of a supporting cast like Stewart had her freshman year?

When Stewart stepped on the court for the Final Four there was only one of her teammates that had been in a championship game. Faris did play a role in that game as a freshman, but you could hardly consider Stewart's cast as battle tested. Taurasi stepped on the court for the Final Four with everyone of her fellow starters having already won a championship game, two of them as starters in that game. They played like it in the first half against Notre Dame, but then frankly relied on Taurasi too much in the second half, or at least Taurasi tried to take more on than she should have.

Notre Dame was a problem for UConn in 2001, but not the "elephant in the head" problem they had become for UConn in 2013. Yet here comes Stewart of having the "luxury" of only one experienced championship player as teammates instead of five who all played significant roles against a Tennessee team with champions themselves in Catchings and Randall. I guess you must see such an overwhelming advantage in previous championship experience as a handicap. Unlike with Taurasi in 2001, UConn absolutely needed Stewart in 2013 in order to win. Taurasi went on to pull off perhaps a greater feat in 2003 than what Stewart did in 2013, but no way, for whatever reason, did Taurasi rise to the occasion as a freshman in the Final Four as Stewart did. The greater championship experience and future college, pro and Olympic stardom of her teammates was in actuality a greater "luxury" than what Stewart had for her freshman year.

Stats used to be a big part of one of my jobs. I know the importance of numbers; I know the importance of context for those numbers. I know, for example, that neither Chong nor Faris are better distributors than Bird by virtue of their A/T numbers, but rather they played in the context of a perimeter oriented offense rather than the post oriented offense presented to Bird. You know the importance of context behind numbers in many of your arguments, it is "laughable" that you do not do so for this .... or disingenuous.

If you rewatch the 1st half of the 2001 Notre Dame Final Four game, you'll see that players like Schumacher and Conlon stepped up in a massive way that was out of the ordinary for those 2. Riley was out with foul trouble and ND played arguably its worst half of the season. Still, UCONN did have a lot of talent in its lineup and they played outstanding basketball, even without Taurasi scoring.

And I'm not sure why you bring up championship experience in 2013 when the matchup was in the Final Four. All of Hartley, Dolson, KML, and Faris had played huge minutes in previous Final Four(s) and were double figure scorers in the previous Final Four game vs. ND. They weren't a wide eyed group that lacked experience. Stewart elevated the group to a title, but they were certainly capable of winning even without her. We saw them throw away a game they had essentially won already at ND in triple overtime with minimal contributions from Stewart. We saw them go toe to toe with Brittney Griner and Baylor with zero contributions from Stewart. We saw 4 starters return from a team that lost in overtime to Notre Dame the year prior in the Final Four, with the lone player not returning being Tiffany Hayes who played poorly that game. UCONN was stacked in 2013 and a major title threat, with or without Stewart.

 

[warbler1055]

I gave up!!! There are so many extraordinary players at UConn through the years that it's impossible to pick the GOAT!!!

 

[CocoHusky]

I would argue that they never reached consensus on the 4th. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln are givens. Kinda of like UConn.

Well Mount Rushmore is a National Park, I'm not sure you need consensus to put the face of the President who started that National Park thing.

 

[CocoHusky]

If you rewatch the 1st half of the 2001 Notre Dame Final Four game, you'll see that players like Schumacher and Conlon stepped up in a massive way that was out of the ordinary for those 2. Riley was out with foul trouble and ND played arguably its worst half of the season. Still, UCONN did have a lot of talent in its lineup and they played outstanding basketball, even without Taurasi scoring.

And I'm not sure why you bring up championship experience in 2013 when the matchup was in the Final Four. All of Hartley, Dolson, KML, and Faris had played huge minutes in previous Final Four(s) and were double figure scorers in the previous Final Four game vs. ND. They weren't a wide eyed group that lacked experience. Stewart elevated the group to a title, but they were certainly capable of winning even without her. We saw them throw away a game they had essentially won already at ND in triple overtime with minimal contributions from Stewart. We saw them go toe to toe with Brittney Griner and Baylor with zero contributions from Stewart. We saw 4 starters return from a team that lost in overtime to Notre Dame the year prior in the Final Four, with the lone player not returning being Tiffany Hayes who played poorly that game. UCONN was stacked in 2013 and a major title threat, with or without Stewart.

That UCONN team also went into Stanford (#1) at the time and absolutely curb stomped the Cardinal 61-35 with Stewie not starting.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Well Mount Rushmore is a National Park, I'm not sure you need consensus to put the face of the President who started that National Park thing.

Fair point.

 

[bluedevil]

This is like the argument of who was the best president..Lincoln or Washington? You can argue either way forever....

 

[MilfordHusky]

You know you have an embarrassment of riches when the person with

• No. 5 in career points (2,342)
• No. 6 in career scoring average (16.7)

and 2-time All-American is not even mentioned in the top 15

Lou was a 3-time WBCA All-American.

 

[pvdoggy]

Lou was a 3-time WBCA All-American.

Even better! How many 3-times All-American can say they don't get any consideration for the top 15 at their school. None?

 

[mhshuskies]

Go to the source, what would Geno say?

 

[CTrefugee]

Go to the source, what would Geno say?

He's too smart to get into this one.