Best Uconn team to NOT win the title

[Wally East]

If I understand correctly, you're saying that UConn was the best team in 2001 despite three losses, including two to the same team?

 

[UcMiami]

BBallnut - nice post, but ... a little revisionist history re 2001 -
This was a team coming off a pretty dominating NC the previous year, with all important players back and adding DT to the mix. (36-1 losing on a last second basket to TN at home and avenging that loss with a 19 point win in the NC game.)
1. DT as a freshman did not start any games until Sveta went down in game 19 - she averaged 24 minutes a game, but prior to that point and the later loss of Shea was probably playing about 15-18 minutes a game. Her scoring average went up as her minutes went up but a scoring rate of .46 per minute playing with both Shea and Sveta for most of the year compares pretty closely to her .50 as a sophomore. And her 3 point shooting as a freshman was better than KMLs even including the final debacle.

2. Sue Bird established herself as the premier PG in WCBB in the 2000 season (her first Lieberman.) Statistically 2001 was a down year for her, probably somewhat due to the injuries to two key starters, and the team having to reinvent itself twice during the year, but she was still very very good.

3. The triumvirate of Jones, Cash, and Williams had already established themselves as very good players - they were still sharing minutes with Schuey - those four were averaging 37 ppg for the center and forward positions - or 18.5 ppg for each - not sure we have had that much production out of those two positions except with Maya/Tina in 2010 who matched it (Lobo/Wolters 95 were at around 16 ppg each. Cash led the way in minutes at 23+, Williams and Jones were both at 19+ and Shuey was at 16+.

4. All of those players increased their production in 2002 but a large part of that was replacing the 741 points, 369 rebounds, 228 assists, and 95 steals that graduated with Sveta, Shea, and Shuey.

No one talks about the 2008 team but they were a team also derailed by injuries losing Greene in game 8 and then Thomas in game 16 - after those two went down, they lost to Rutgers by 2 and then in the FF to a Stanford team they manhandled when they were whole early in the year.

In total - injury effected teams that might/were good enough to win:
1997 - Shea
1998 - Sales
1999 - Shea
2001 - Shea/Sveta
2008 - Greene/Thomas

Scary good.

 

[meyers7]

I loved this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I "like"d it, literally.

 

[meyers7]

If I understand correctly, you're saying that UConn was the best team in 2001 despite three losses, including two to the same team?

Most talented.

Here's an argument for you. A couple years ago I did a poll playoff of all the NC teams (8 at the time). The 2002 team won easily and is considered by many to be the best all time (WCBB). Just a devastating team. The 2001 team was basically the 2002 team with Ralph, Abrosimova and Schumacher and Kennitra Johnson added. Think about that.

Maybe next month when it starts getting really boring, I will do another poll with all 10 teams. Have to do play-in games.

 

[UcMiami]

Most talented.

Here's an argument for you. A couple years ago I did a poll playoff of all the NC teams (8 at the time). The 2002 team won easily and is considered by many to be the best all time (WCBB). Just a devastating team. The 2001 team was basically the 2002 team with Ralph, Abrosimova and Schumacher and Kennitra Johnson added. Think about that.

Maybe next month when it starts getting really boring, I will do another poll with all 10 teams. Have to do play-in games.

So ... what you are saying is that we are going to leave the ranking of Uconn teams to the uneducated, ignorant, misguided, and mindless thinking of a group of people who hang out at a place called 'the boneyard'. That should settle the question for ever!!


(As Geno says - if it comes down to a vote, is it really worth winning! )

 

[meyers7]

So ... what you are saying is that we are going to leave the ranking of Uconn teams to the uneducated, ignorant, misguided, and mindless thinking of a group of people who hang out at a place called 'the boneyard'. That should settle the question for ever!!


(As Geno says - if it comes down to a vote, is it really worth winning! )

Well it should settle the Boneyard argument anyway.

 

[hoophuskee]

If I understand correctly, you're saying that UConn was the best team in 2001 despite three losses, including two to the same team?

Not quite - close -- but not quite.

What I'm saying is UCONN wasn't the best team because of their injuries.

If they had Sveta - they would have had a good shot to beat Tennesse. Check out the box score Feb 1st from below - Sveta played just 25 minutes. She was 7-12 from the floor and 3-4 from 3 along with 8 rebounds. UCONN missed their best palyer. UCONN won vs ND on a buzzer-beater but doesn't it stand to reason that our best player (a 1stteam all-american) along with Ralph could have helped? Or is it that because in January we lost we had no chance to beat them?

And the game vs ND at FF- isn't the final four a bigger stage than the other rounds? Thus wouldn't it stand to reason that a freshman has a greater chance to "crash-and-burn the more you put on her back on the final four? Do people really think UCONN would have been living and dying with DT jump shots once she clunked a few vs THE SENIOR Sveta who WAS playing the best basketball of her career before she got hurt?

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...5/misc_non_event/2000-01AllGamesBoxScores.pdf

 

[Wally East]

Not quite - close -- but not quite.

What I'm saying is UCONN wasn't the best team because of their injuries.

I don't think so. Obviously, at the end of the season, UConn missed Sveta and Shea. Obviously. But, if you look at the boxs scores of the two losses to Notre Dame, they're pretty similar. Yes, the route taken to the losses was different, but:

Jan 15 vs. Mar 30
92-76 vs 90-75
36% shooting vs. 34%
giving up 46 FTs vs 36
33% 3-pt vs. 20%
Bird scores 18 vs. 18
Tamika scores 10 vs. 10
DT scores 6 vs 4
Swin scores 7 vs 8
28 bench points vs. 26
2nd-half ND scores 52 vs. 53

(In the first loss, Shea had 2 points on 1-of-4 shooting in 20 minutes and Sveta had 20, going 7-17 in 36 minutes.)

Some of the names changed but it didn't matter much. ND was just better that season despite the obvious overload of talent UConn had, even with season-ending injuries to two All-Americans.

 

[hoophuskee]

I don't think so. Obviously, at the end of the season, UConn missed Sveta and Shea. Obviously. But, if you look at the boxs scores of the two losses to Notre Dame, they're pretty similar. Yes, the route taken to the losses was different, but:

Jan 15 vs. Mar 30
92-76 vs 90-75
36% shooting vs. 34%
giving up 46 FTs vs 36
33% 3-pt vs. 20%
Bird scores 18 vs. 18
Tamika scores 10 vs. 10
DT scores 6 vs 4
Swin scores 7 vs 8
28 bench points vs. 26
2nd-half ND scores 52 vs. 53

(In the first loss, Shea had 2 points on 1-of-4 shooting in 20 minutes and Sveta had 20, going 7-17 in 36 minutes.)

Some of the names changed but it didn't matter much. ND was just better that season despite the obvious overload of talent UConn had, even with season-ending injuries to two All-Americans.

The two box scores from January and March/April are irrelevant. Every game is different. The circumsatances are different. In basketball as we know Ruth Reilly for example-- one player can make a huge difference,. Sveta was beginning to peak in her senior year. That's a much different dynamic. The defense has to account for that.

If we look at game 2 - you'll see Ralph played extremely well before she went down. I don't have the box scores -- but just as Ralph improved - I'm sure game 2 with Bird her level of play improved from game 1. In part - Ralph's presence and level of play helped Bird and Bird's helped Ralph's. You tale away a star- it's much harder for the other star to maintain a certain level of excellence. If Ralph's presence in game 2 and her level of play was so high - then could you imagine if we had Sveta for game 2 and game 3? The numbers you provided would be much differnet because you'd have to account more for Sveta and Ralph with your defense. Everything would be different because UCONN would be attacking with Sveta as both a slasher and a shooter and Ralph was an excellent passer- especially her senior year - you can see how her assists vs turnovers was excellent. You have all of this plus senior leadership the dynamics of how UCONN plays is completely different than game 1 vs Notre Dame.

Just look at Shea's game 1 vs game 2. Add that game 2 plus her experience. It changes. You can't disregard She's performance in game 2 before she went down. Then you can't disregard Sveta's overall level of lay and how the team's dynamic would have played off of that.

 

[Wally East]

The two box scores from January and March/April are irrelevant.

Oh, you mean the detailed results of what actually happened?



I think we're done here.

 

[hoophuskee]

Oh, you mean the detailed results of what actually happened?



I think we're done here.

Hmmmm – I think you are having an argument with another poster on this thread that said this:


don't think so. Obviously, at the end of the season, UConn missed Sveta and Shea.

So what you’re essentially saying is – UCONN missed Sveta and Shea but the game THEY DIDN”T PLAY in is more relevant than even the 2nd game in which at least one of them played a portion of the game. Interesting twisted point of view you have here, Mention UCONN missed 2 all-americans of which one was staring to play at her peak level and you want to use the game in which both didn’t play as some sort of barometer. Just --- WOW.

Secondly, here is a little history lesson for you. It is true that teams that have lost to another in a the regular season have beaten the same team in the NCAA’s. Did you happen to miss the game UCONN beat ND in Stewie’s frosh year? Or how about a couple years earlier ND knocked out Maya and TAM knocked out Baylor? I believe a year before that Baylor beat Tennessee in NCAA's– but earlier in year Tenn beat the frosh Griner. Yet somehow YOUR EXAMPLE of a January game is relevant? Sure---- okay. Nobody can overcome a regular season January loss-- because you say so.

Third I see how you conveniently ignored Ralph’s game 2. Instead game 1 is more relevant for you. S0- in other words – what happens earlier in the year is more relevant to you than the improvement and play we saw from Ralph in the Big East Tourney Finals (Game 2). Wow. Just – Wow.

You’re right. We’re done here.

 

[Wally East]

Hmmmm – I think you are having an argument with another poster on this thread that said this:

don't think so. Obviously, at the end of the season, UConn missed Sveta and Shea.

I said that to you. It's right there in the quote header. Yes, of course UConn missed those two players. But they weren't enough to overcome ND. If they were, UConn would've defeated ND in January. They did not. It was not close, never in question.

Yes. I think the two games that UConn played and lost are more important than the one game they played and won, at home, by virtue of a buzzer beater -- especially when the two losses look virtually identical. (Your history lesson about teams beating opponents they'd lost to earlier in the season is nice but there are far more examples of teams continuing to lose to an opponent that had already defeated them.)

Incidentally, I don't think the stats support your contention that Sveta had elevated her game after the January ND game or for her senior year as a whole. Her non-conference scoring was actually higher than it was in conference games (most non-coference games happening prior to that game). Sure, she had a 25-point game again Syracuse in the 18th game of the season but she had a 23-point game against Washington in the 3rd game of the season. But, in the two games prior to the Syravuse game, she didn't fare well: against Pittsburgh, she didn't score in double-digits and didn't have more than 12 against Miami. She didn't rate a mention in the AP article about either game. Not exactly the play of someone who had elevated her game.

Sveta's PPG were down seasonally, too: 14.5 as a frosh, 16.6 as a soph, 13.4 as a junior and 14.1 as a senior. Her rebounding was steady: 5.4 rpg as a frosh, 6.6, 6.2, and 6.5. Assists, 3.1 apg as a frosh, 3.7, 4.2, and 4.1 as a senior. Elevating her game after a step back as a junior? Sure. Her best basketball ever? I don't think the stats support that. (It was her best year in terms of FG%.)

Further, Shea didn't have a great senior season. It was her lowest scoring sesaon by a good chunk, she average 9.7 ppg, as compared to 11.4 her freshman year, 16.7 as a soph, and 14.9 as a junior. (So, her scoring was down more than 5 points per game comparing her senior season to her junior season.) Her FG% was also at its lowest point: 55% as a frosh, 59% as a soph, 62% as a junior and 52% as a senior. (To be sure, 52% is still very good.) But, all in all, she wasn't the player she was in prior seasons. Shea was not an All-American that season.

So, specifically, what were Sveta and Shea going to do in March that they didn't in January that would've prevented Notre Dame from scoring 53 points in the second half? Why didn't they do whatever you propose in January to prevent ND from scoring 52 in the second half?

Neither was a terrific defensive player and that was the problem this team had against ND. They could not keep them from scoring. When you give up more than 50 points to a team in a half -- TWICE -- there are serious defensive problems. Those defensive problems did not get fixed between January and March (which, obviously, because otherwise it wouldn't have happened in March).

What it comes down is that UConn had no way to stop Ruth Riley plus ND was very balanced offensively.

All of these stats support why I think what I do.

We all know that something went wrong with the '00-'01 team aside from the injuries. Other than Kelly Schumacher, not a single player on the team played her best season that season, which is definitely a sympton of something larger.

 

[bballnut90]

BBallnut - nice post, but ... a little revisionist history re 2001 -
This was a team coming off a pretty dominating NC the previous year, with all important players back and adding DT to the mix. (36-1 losing on a last second basket to TN at home and avenging that loss with a 19 point win in the NC game.)
1. DT as a freshman did not start any games until Sveta went down in game 19 - she averaged 24 minutes a game, but prior to that point and the later loss of Shea was probably playing about 15-18 minutes a game. Her scoring average went up as her minutes went up but a scoring rate of .46 per minute playing with both Shea and Sveta for most of the year compares pretty closely to her .50 as a sophomore. And her 3 point shooting as a freshman was better than KMLs even including the final debacle.

2. Sue Bird established herself as the premier PG in WCBB in the 2000 season (her first Lieberman.) Statistically 2001 was a down year for her, probably somewhat due to the injuries to two key starters, and the team having to reinvent itself twice during the year, but she was still very very good.

3. The triumvirate of Jones, Cash, and Williams had already established themselves as very good players - they were still sharing minutes with Schuey - those four were averaging 37 ppg for the center and forward positions - or 18.5 ppg for each - not sure we have had that much production out of those two positions except with Maya/Tina in 2010 who matched it (Lobo/Wolters 95 were at around 16 ppg each. Cash led the way in minutes at 23+, Williams and Jones were both at 19+ and Shuey was at 16+.

4. All of those players increased their production in 2002 but a large part of that was replacing the 741 points, 369 rebounds, 228 assists, and 95 steals that graduated with Sveta, Shea, and Shuey.

No one talks about the 2008 team but they were a team also derailed by injuries losing Greene in game 8 and then Thomas in game 16 - after those two went down, they lost to Rutgers by 2 and then in the FF to a Stanford team they manhandled when they were whole early in the year.

In total - injury effected teams that might/were good enough to win:
1997 - Shea
1998 - Sales
1999 - Shea
2001 - Shea/Sveta
2008 - Greene/Thomas

Scary good.

Good points made here. For your 2nd point about Bird, she was one of the premier point guards in the nation that year along with Miller and Niele Ivey, but I honestly thought she was better as a sophomore than as a junior, and then obviously had her best season as a senior. In 2000, I can't recall a single game where she didn't have complete control over the game's tempo, she always had the upper hand in every match up. In the three losses in 2001, she didn't have control of the game. She was still very good in 2001, but if we traveled back 14 years, I don't think many people would have predicted that she'd go on to have the career she has had compared to the likes of Niele Ivey and Kelly Miller.

The foursome you mentioned was very effective, but for good chunks of the season, Cash played small forward which dilutes those numbers. From what I recall, after Ralph went down, UCONN had Cash play SF and had Jones/Schumacher as posts in the starting 5, with Williams coming off the bench. They were very good, but in 2002 the trio made up unquestionably the best front court in women's basketball. That was not evident in 2001, as Tennessee had an outstanding frontcourt of Catchings/Jackson/Snow, Notre Dame with Siemon/Riley, Purdue with Cooper/Hurns, etc. UCONN's front court was very good, but in 2001 no one would have predicted that Jones/Cash/Williams would go on to be incredibly successful at the next level compared to players like Gwen Jackson (who dropped 28/14 on UCONN in 2001) and Ruth Riley.

2008 was an interesting team as well. They only lost a close game at Rutgers and in the Final Four, but they should have lost to a mediocre DePaul team if it wasn't for a choke job down the stretch, and games against Rutgers (NCAA), Syracuse, Louisville and LSU could have easily been losses for UCONN.

Maya Moore was sensational as a freshman, but outside of her and Swanier, no one had really strong seasons for Connecticut. Montgomery's shooting was horrible, Charles/Houston were in Geno's dog house at the end of the year and Geno tried a slew of different lineups looking for the magic combination. There wasn't a ton of cohesiveness nor consistency with this squad outside of Moore and Swanier. Having Thomas and Greene would've been very helpful, but 2008 was also an incredibly competitive year for women's basketball. Tennessee was the eventual champion and had the nation's best player and the best defense by the end of the season. Stanford had the best ball movement of any team, Rutgers was immensely talented but had no offense, LSU was loaded with seniors and played outstanding defense, Maryland and UNC were both #1 seeds, Texas A&M was good, etc. Outside of UCONN, all of the top programs had their top players as seniors in 2008. Lots of really good and experienced teams that season. I do think Tennessee was the best team in 2008, but it was a more open field than it was in most seasons. If the NCAA Tournament was played out 10 times, there could have been 6-7 different champions.


And in regards to your list, here are my thoughts:
1997-UCONN definitely could have won it this year. Tennessee was really really good at the end of the season with a healthy Jolly and Holdsclaw playing some of the best basketball of her career, so that game would have been a dog fight if Ralph played. If they beat UT and make the title game (assuming they beat Notre Dame), they would've faced a LOADED Stanford or ODU squad. Stanford might have had the nation's best team in 1997 once Folkl came on board, and you could make the same argument for ODU considering they beat Stanford twice. In hindsight, the fact that a ten loss team would go on to win the title when there were 3 other teams that in total combined for 1 loss (excluding head to head matchups) is crazy and will probably never happen again.

1998-I don't see UCONN coming close to Tennessee. 1998 was a weaker year for Connecticut. They had a nice 1-2 punch in Sales/Abrosimova, but Tennessee was just untouchable that season.

1999-UCONN was very good, but incredibly young. All of their best players were freshmen and sophomores, they lost by 11 at home to Tennessee (granted it was without Bird), but I don't think they had the maturity or experience to compete with Tennessee or Purdue had they matched up in the NCAA tournament.

2001-This one has been actively debated on here. I think Notre Dame wins regardless of whether Ralph and Abrosimova are healthy, but people have varying opinions on this.

2008-Total toss up as noted above.

2011-Not injury, but Walker's mid season departure had lasting effects for Connecticut. Against Notre Dame, Dolson got into foul trouble and UCONN had to play long stretches of small ball with no one over 6-0 in the line up. As a result, they were dominated on the glass and in the time that Dolson was benched after her 4th foul, Notre Dame outscored UCONN by 7 and never relinquished the lead. I don't know if Walker would have made a difference, but with hindsight being 20/20, it couldn't have hurt UCONN considering the end outcome of that game.

 

[jcoton56]

The other 20 in any order ;-)

 

[hoophuskee]

I said that to you. It's right there in the quote header. Yes, of course UConn missed those two players. But they weren't enough to overcome ND. If they were, UConn would've defeated ND in January. They did not. It was not close, never in question.

.

1--- When you have all-amercians—particularly UCONN all-americans – and ones that are seniors and one that is regarded as one of the best 5 players in America – these all americans make other players better. There is no way you can look at that January game and then surmise that Sveta wouldn’t have improved the team when you consider that game 2 we already had improved a great deal from the drubbing we took. Shea Ralph improved in that 2nd game, what makes you think Sveta wouldn’t have helped make her teammates better in game 3? If She Ralph can do it, so can Sveta.

2--- You keep bringing up game 1 and then tying it into game 3. They are NOT similar because BOTH all-americans did NOT play in game 3. In Game 2 when just ONE of them played (Ralph) - she outstanding. When I bring it up—a lot I hear is “buzzer-beater.” But when we speak of Ralph’s play—why would the subject be immediately turned into buzzer beater? Let's talk about game 2- the more recent than game 1- of which UCONN was a little more at full strength than game 3. Look at her stats in Game 2—she was 4-5 from the floor- was 1-1 from 3, had 11 points and 6 assists with no turnovers in just 14 minutes. How does your mention of game 1 and game 3 have any relevance to these numbers put out by Shea in just 14 minutes? Thus why are you using game 1 Shea stats and not game 2 Shea stats?

3--- There is a myth that just because a player doesn’t score as much or shot as well from the floor it means they are a having a bad season. Maybe it’s a sub-par season for the player but hardly is the player playing bad. Thus we have Shea Ralph. Her stats were down but she had 122 assists vs only 57 turnovers. In Her jr year it was slightly above 2-1 – but all in-all for two consecutive years she was a terrific passer. How can that passing not be applied to game 3? How can her performance in game 2 of just 14 minutes not figured that it would be a great help in game 3? We are talking the player Shea Ralph – not the fact UCONN won on a buzzer beater. Did she Ralph improve a lot from game 1 to game 2? The answer is yes. Wouldn’t have Sveta improved? Why wouldn’t she? She was having her best year. You say she wasn’t but the stats show otherwise.

4--- Sveta was having her best season. In terms of average - she was shooting better from the floor from 2 and from 3. She was rebounding higher slightly higher than her jr year but slightly less her soph year, and her assists were slightly higher her sr year than her jr year but much better turnovers. Much much better. So in summary we have Sveta a better shooter than any point in her career, a much better passer than any point in her career and only missed out by .1 in having her best rebounding year, -- and you are suggesting that as you say “I don't think the stats support your contention.” So fundamentals of shooting, passing and rebounding overall don’t suggest this?

In summary we’ve seen evidence that Ralph did turn her game around from game 1 to game 2. Thus we saw the turn-around from the team as well from getting blitzed in game 1 to winning game 2. We see overall that Sveta shooting improved along with her passing improved overall a lot over her career. You can point to her frosh year shooting but add Sveta’s frosh passing and overall the total package of Sveta - improved greatly. So we’ve seen Ralph’s improvement form game 1 to game 2 – so we are supposed to ignore that Sveta along with Ralph’s numbers wouldn’t translate to a positive in game 3? Shea’s numbers already did in game 2. And Sveta was a better player. Gimme seniors alla-americans and great passer and one of the best player's in wcbb that -- wins.

DT wasn’t the passer these seniors were in her frosh year. She had just 109 assists vs 72 turnovers. We had to “live-and-die” with DT’s shooting. When you have Both Sveta and Shea—you have two fabulous passers – you have more ways to win. More ways to attack. We already beat them with a part-time Shea. The stats of game 2 are more realistic of the outcome because we did win the latest game with just one of our 2 missing all-americans. You can’t ignore game 2 with a part-time Ralph. Add Sveta, a superior player to Shea, in the mix it would have been over.

Hell Sue Bird even had a bad back and considered not playing the Big East Title game- though that's not the same as Sveta and Ralph-- their passing that year made players better. DT's passing as a frosh not so much. Ralph was a beast in her 14 minutes vs ND and Sveta would have had even more of an impact. Game 2- Ralph's improvement highlighted the improvement probability. Sveta was among the top 5 players in the game- not just a scorer- she was more like top 3. THAT is an impact player. Ralph's game improved and impacted Game 2 so would have Sveta.



[

 

[baylorprof]

I haven't read all of this so excuse the duplicate. Two years ago while a wishing and a hopin and reading the postseason program, one stat stood out in my mind that I've seldom seen mentioned about Auriemma. Perhaps it is among you guys, but the hinterlands who've never sniffed a final four probably don't.

Of the many trips you've made to final four (?) IF Geno gets to the final game, he wins it! That is a unique stat worth never growing old.

 

[Wally East]

[ ... ]

Yes, you have said a lot of things but:

What would have Sveta and Shea done in the third game that they didn't do in the first game, especially with regards to defense? Why didn't they do those things in the first game?

Of course the two games are linked -- in terms of team stats, they were identical and so were the outcomes. ND scored 52/53 points in the second half. That's not a coincidence.

 

[UcMiami]

I haven't read all of this so excuse the duplicate. Two years ago while a wishing and a hopin and reading the postseason program, one stat stood out in my mind that I've seldom seen mentioned about Auriemma. Perhaps it is among you guys, but the hinterlands who've never sniffed a final four probably don't.

Of the many trips you've made to final four (?) IF Geno gets to the final game, he wins it! That is a unique stat worth never growing old.

He once said of the FF he has reached it with teams that were not ready to win an NC, but he has never reached the NC game with a team that wasn't ready to win the NC. I always found that an interesting statement. It doesn't mean that he hasn't lost a semi-final game with a team ready to win an NC, just that all the teams that did win semis were also ready to win the NC.

 

[hoophuskee]

Yes, you have said a lot of things but:

What would have Sveta and Shea done in the third game that they didn't do in the first game, especially with regards to defense? Why didn't they do those things in the first game?

Of course the two games are linked -- in terms of team stats, they were identical and so were the outcomes. ND scored 52/53 points in the second half. That's not a coincidence.

Why ask about the 1st and 3rd game of Shea when you already saw Shea's 2nd game? You keep ignoring the 2nd game for some reason.

The two games of 1 and 3 aren't linked. Game two showed you the improvement of UCONN and Shea for that matter. There is no reason to believe Shea couldn't play very well vs ND in game 3 in that she showed you in game 2 she played very, very, very, very well. And what Shea could do - Sveta was just flat out better than Shea her senior year.

 

[Wally East]

Why ask about the 1st and 3rd game of Shea when you already saw Shea's 2nd game? You keep ignoring the 2nd game for some reason.

The two games of 1 and 3 aren't linked. Game two showed you the improvement of UCONN and Shea for that matter. There is no reason to believe Shea couldn't play very well vs ND in game 3 in that she showed you in game 2 she played very, very, very, very well. And what Shea could do - Sveta was just flat out better than Shea her senior year.

So, you're saying you don't know what Shea and Sveta could have done in the third game defensively that they didn't do in the first game. Fair enough. They weren't especially good defensive players.

The 2nd game is the obvious outlier, so, yes, it means less. That's how those things work.

 

[hoophuskee]

So, you're saying you don't know what Shea and Sveta could have done in the third game defensively that they didn't do in the first game. Fair enough. They weren't especially good defensive players.

The 2nd game is the obvious outlier, so, yes, it means less. That's how those things work.

Huh?

What did I say about the defense? I'm not sure where you are referencing that I said something about the defense. Can you tell me where I said it? I'm not arguing.

Now that you mention it -- I have to say two things about defense righr now though - one is both Ralph and Sveta were good enough the prior year to win a title and secondly I'm not sure their defense would have been much cause for concern vs ND. You think our defense was better when we had to play DT more? Did you know she fouled out of every game vs ND and once when we lost to Tenn and the game we beat Tenn she had 4 fouls in 22 minutes? And this is the type of player we have to rely on for a full game without Sveta and Shea? It's one thing to beat2nd tier teams another to rely on a frosh to come through vs eleite teams, isn't it? ND's major offense was a lot of Ruth. Ratay scored off of Ruth a bit didn't she? Ivey could score but that was Bird's "man," wasn't she? I don't get where you are referencing what I said about Shea/Sveta's defense. The Shea's defense in game 2 I was good enough- didn't hurt UCONN did it? So why would it hurt them in game 3?

This is where we disagree (on your reference of outlier). UCONN already showed in game 2 with Ralph (without Sveta) that we got over the hump and improved. Ralph's improved play was a testament to that. As I've indicted to you in the history of basketball we have seen teams lose earlier in year only to come back later and they beat that team in NCAA's. Teams improve. Game 2 was no outlier. Game 2 was about the defending champs finding their stride until the 2nd of their all-americans went down, then they hung on for dear life.

I just have to say I find it odd that you made the following statement below in bold yet from every post you make, you don't seem like you think UCONN missed them at all because you certainly aren't giving Ralph any love for her awesome game 2. You think it would revert back to game 3. SO how then did UCONN exactly "miss" Ralph and Sveta as you suggested earlier if you keep referencing a game in January as the barometer despite having overwhelming evidence that Ralph was awesome in game 2 and Sveta was peaking in her senior year while both were far superior passers to DT? And Sveta was a far superior shooter to DT in her senior year, a far superior rebounder, a far superior passer and a better scorer. SO what exactly is DT bringing as frosh that Sveta didn't already have at a superior level?

Obviously, at the end of the season, UConn missed Sveta and Shea.

 

[Wally East]

Huh?

What did I say about the defense? I'm not sure where you are referencing that I said something about the defense. Can you tell me where I said it? I'm not arguing.

That's my point: You didn't say anything. Their defense is literally the entire point.

ND's major offense was a lot of Ruth. Ratay scored off of Ruth a bit didn't she? Ivey could score but that was Bird's "man," wasn't she?

EXACTLY. YES. ND was going to score 52 or 53 points on UConn in a half regardless of whether Shea or Sveta played AND DID. They weren't defending ND's main offensive threats.

See. This is the thing. They both played in the first game and UConn got hammered. Then, neither played in the third game and UConn got hammered. Do you see how their playing or not playing literally made no difference? It was the play of other players that mattered.

In the three games, UConn scored 76, 75, and 78 points. Obviously, UConn didn't miss the offensive production of Sveta and Shea. The team made up for what Sveta provided in the first game and Shea in the first game and a chunk.

The difference was the defense and they didn't guard ND's main offensive threats, did they?

And, guess what? I've changed my mind. Maybe UConn didn't miss Sveta and Shea at the end of the season. The stats seem to support that. They scored the same number of points against Notre Dame with them and without them.

 

[Wally East]

Look. In six halves of basketball, UConn won two (one with Shea, one without, neither was with Sveta). Notre Dame was clearly the better team than UConn, regardless of who UConn put on the court. That's all I'm trying to say.

The team had a load of talent, although no one was playing at the top of her game. For whatever reason, Notre Dame was able to handle UConn and was two Sue Bird buzzer-beaters away from sweeping them.

 

[hoophuskee]

Look. In six halves of basketball, UConn won two (one with Shea, one without, neither was with Sveta). Notre Dame was clearly the better team than UConn, regardless of who UConn put on the court. That's all I'm trying to say.

The team had a load of talent, although no one was playing at the top of her game. For whatever reason, Notre Dame was able to handle UConn and was two Sue Bird buzzer-beaters away from sweeping them.

In how many games did ND beat UCONN two years ago? 3 out of 4? Same with Baylor over TAM? Same with UCONN over ND a couple of years ago. How about Tenn beating Baylor then Baylor taking them down in NCAA's.

And ND beat UCONN in 2001 ONCE when UCONN was at full strength and that was in January. THAT imo is not indicator the next games would have gone ND's way just as the above games went the other way from reg. season to NCAA's. In fact UCONN did beat them the 2nd time without our best player. Who won the halves is not the object of the game, We split 2 games when we had just one of our all-americans - Ralph play just part-time.

ND was NOT better than UCONN in game 2. UCONN beat ND in game 2.

And again you were the one that said UCONN missed Sveta and Ralph and now you're just glossing over them as if they don't matter when in fact in game 2 Ralph DID matter.

And yes-- Sveta was playing the best basketball of her career. Many seniors have that moment and Sveta was having hers.

Got to crash. Love the discussion- thanks. Don't think either of us are going to change the other's opinion.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Some WCBB fans, even some BONEYARDERS have said that the 2000-2001 UCONN team cannot be considered the best team of all time because they DIDN'T win a NCAA title or that they lost to ND and TN earlier in the season! But think of it this way, that UCONN team had 7 first-team All-Americans on the roster! Shea Ralph
Svetlana Abrosimova
Tameka Williams
Diana Taurasi
Sue Bird
Asjha Jones
Swin Cash
No other team had that many 1st team AA's on the roster at the same time, so if first team AA is the highest award a player can attain during a season, they have to be considered the best Women's College BB team of all time!

 

[Wally East]

Some WCBB fans, even some BONEYARDERS have said that the 2000-2001 UCONN team cannot be considered the best team of all time because they DIDN'T win a NCAA title or that they lost to ND and TN earlier in the season! But think of it this way, that UCONN team had 7 first-team All-Americans on the roster! Shea Ralph
Svetlana Abrosimova
Tameka Williams
Diana Taurasi
Sue Bird
Asjha Jones
Swin Cash
No other team had that many 1st team AA's on the roster at the same time, so if first team AA is the highest award a player can attain during a season, they have to be considered the best Women's College BB team of all time!

The problem with that is that really only Sveta was named an All-Americans that season (Sue did make the AP All-American 3rd Team). No one of those seven players had their best season in '00-'01. Shea and DT were furthest from their peaks, albeit in different chronological directions, but the other five all had better seasons in other years.

I'd have no problem saying it was the greatest collection of talent or potential or something along those lines. The greatest team? No, clearly not.

(And Player of the Year is a higher honor than All-American.)

 

[calpedaler]