Best natural Athlete

[Buzzyboy]

But if Andre was 2' 8" how good would he be?

And if Scotty was 10'2"?

A "natural" athlete is someone who could do well at any sport to which they set their mind. Think of how you use the term. It almost seems easy for the natural athlete. Those decathlete skills are a good base for that but not the definition of it.
I didn't see Walt and it is hard to compare eras, but Walt may beat Scott

That is what I don't understand. If Drummond were six inches shorter, how special would he be???? He is overtly quick and strong for a man of his size but nothing suggests that he could compete at a high level in other athletic endeavors. Maybe he could but there is no history that he has ever done so. The same can not be said about Scott Burrell and Walt Dropo who excelled in multiple sports.

 

[superjohn]

Buzzyboy, you are all over the place. We get it you think Burrell could have played pro baseball, soccer, tennis, football, golf etc. and Drummond wouldn't be a good athlete if he was Gary Coleman's size. You do concede that Drummond's NBA career will probably exceed Scott Burrell's, I know that's a major step for you.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I do not have any issues with Andre Drummond. It's you putting words in my mouth. The discussion was supposed to be about the best natural athlete and outside of being an exceptionally athletic big man, what has Drummond done that would earn him that title. There is nothing said or written about him that suggests that other than his basketball skills which are overtly impressive, he has any other outstanding athletic abilities. Meanwhile, Scott Burrell was a noted athlete in multiple sports, excelling to the extent that he was a first round pick in both basketball and baseball and he was a relatively renowned all-state quarterback. The fact that he was so gifted in multiple sports suggests that there may be others that he could excel at. The hand eye coordination necessary to hit a baseball (he was an outstanding hitter, though his forte was pitching) helps reinforce (to me and others) how talented he was. The fact Drummond will likely have an NBA career that will FAR surpass anything Scott did means that he is a more dominant basketball player than Scott was but does nothing to suggest he was a better natural athlete. Burrell was outstanding in multiple sports requiring different skills and I've heard nothing about any level of competence Andre showed in any other area. My definition of a natural athlete is someone whose multi talented and can compete very ably in numerous endeavors. Scott fills that bill. You demean a lot of players that played at UConn by referring to Burrell as nothing but a role player. How many NBA players are "special"? There are a lot of people who talk about how many players Calhoun and now Ollie have sent to the NBA and they don't qualify it by saying Hilton was a role player, Kevin was a role player, Jake Voshkul etc., etc. Anyone who gets drafted and plays in the NBA is a pretty special player though some inevitably become stars like Ray has. You are the guy disrespecting players that have played in the NBA because they didn't become superstars, not me. By the way, for you to point out a specific play that "proves" that he could cover guys like Duane Wade is just silly. That's like suggesting, based on the 30 foot three point shot he hit in the last moments of the 2004 Big East Tournament final, that Taliek Brown is a gifted three point shooter. It proves nothing but that anyone can make an exceptional play at a specific time. To do it consistently would be a different story. Would you want him to continually play against faster and quicker players? You'd have to be out of your mind.

First off, Burrell was a role player in the NBA. I don't see how that's at all arguable. He was great at UConn, and I'm not taking anything away from him, but he was a role player in the NBA.

Secondly, the reason I think you have something against Drummond has to do with your little "tie his shoes" dig in one of your posts.

Drummond posted a 10.83 in the lane agility drills in pre-draft testing, which was a top 10 number in that draft. In the history of pre-draft testing, there's only been one guy over 250 pounds who's had a better number in the lane agility drills. You speculating on his ability to defend forwards and guards is just that, speculation. One of the main premises of your argument is based off of something that you've completely made up in your head, this notion that he can't defend on the perimeter. According to Synergy, when he stepped out to guard the pick and roll guy, the player only shot the ball twice all year, which is pretty indicative of his ability to defend on the perimeter.

My other problem is that you paint Burrell as if he's a rich man's Bruce Bowen as a defender, when Drummond is only 20 years old and already has a higher average defensive rating than Burrell did.

We probably have different definitions of what a "natural athlete" is, which is fine.

 

[CAHUSKY]

We probably have different definitions of what a "natural athlete" is, which is fine.

That's the key point. Some (me) view a natural athlete as some one who has the natural ability (quickness, hand eye coordination, speed, jumping ability) to be really, really good at anything. You (and others) define it as being incredibly agile at 6'10 with the ability to dominate at one sport.

 

[johnhuskies95]

That's the key point. Some (me) view a natural athlete as some one who has the natural ability (quickness, hand eye coordination, speed, jumping ability) to be really, really good at anything. You (and others) define it as being incredibly agile at 6'10 with the ability to dominate at one sport.

You (and others) keep bringing height into it. It has nothing to do with height. Under my definition of a "natural athlete", some with speed, strength, agility, coordination, and leaping ability, Adrian Peterson is just as athletic as Andre Drummond.

 

[UconNate]

I've always like that Ben Gordon was one of the strongest guys on the team. Great athlete. I'll go with him for best athlete ever to play basketball at Uconn...

 

[CAHUSKY]

You (and others) keep bringing height into it. It has nothing to do with height. Under my definition of a "natural athlete", some with speed, strength, agility, coordination, and leaping ability, Adrian Peterson is just as athletic as Andre Drummond.

Agreed. Height has absolutely nothing to do with athletic ability but it has everything to do with drummonds success. He is very athletic and when you combine it with his height you have a dominant basketball player. You may not, however have a great natural athlete.

 

[Rico444]

I think people are confusing "skilled" and "athletic." Burrell is incredibly skilled in a number of sports. Drummond is incredibly athletic. If you combined Scott's skill with Andre's athleticism, you'd have an unbelievable talent.

 

[johnhuskies95]

Agreed. Height has absolutely nothing to do with athletic ability but it has everything to do with drummonds success. He is very athletic and when you combine it with his height you have a dominant basketball player. You may not, however have a great natural athlete.

Agree to disagree.

 

[superjohn]

Agreed. Height has absolutely nothing to do with athletic ability but it has everything to do with drummonds success. He is very athletic and when you combine it with his height you have a dominant basketball player. You may not, however have a great natural athlete.

Agree to disagree as well.

 

[intlzncster]

I think people are confusing "skilled" and "athletic." Burrell is incredibly skilled in a number of sports. Drummond is incredibly athletic. If you combined Scott's skill with Andre's athleticism, you'd have an unbelievable talent.

If you simply made Burrell 7' tall, you'd probably consider him a greater athlete than Andre Drummond.

The gold standard of athleticism--ie the worlds greatest athlete--has traditionally been the decathlete (I don't know if that's right or not, but it is what it is.), which is a combination of both athleticism and skill/technique. Coordination, the root of skill/technique, is a large part of athleticism. Pretty hard to completely separate the two.

 

[CAHUSKY]

I think people are confusing "skilled" and "athletic." Burrell is incredibly skilled in a number of sports. Drummond is incredibly athletic. If you combined Scott's skill with Andre's athleticism, you'd have an unbelievable talent.

Which athletic attributes do you think Drummond is more superior in? Just wondering which attributes you consider athletic and which are skills.

 

[superjohn]

If you simply made Burrell 7' tall, you'd probably consider him a greater athlete than Andre Drummond.

The gold standard of athleticism--ie the worlds greatest athlete--has traditionally been the decathlete (I don't know if that's right or not, but it is what it is.), which is a combination of both athleticism and skill/technique. Coordination, the root of skill/technique, is a large part of athleticism. Pretty hard to completely separate the two.

If you think the world's top decathletes are the best athletes in the world then I completely disagree with you. There are a bunch of guys playing in the NFL and NBA that if you trained them for a substantial period of time would become the top decathlete, the top athletes don't train for the decathlon because there is money in it. As I stated in another post there are also a pretty substantial amount of athletes that could play D! in multiple sports but if an athlete has aspirations of playing a sport professionally there is no sense in training for multiple spots. I remember years ago when Tony Ortiz from Waterbury was running faster times in the 100 and 110 hurdles than the top decathletes for the US, I'm sure given his size and strength he could be taught to throw things far as well. He picked football and played at Nebraska but never made the NFL, I'm sure the dreams of playing in the NFL was a much bigger draw than becoming a decathlete.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I am not sure how we ended up on Drummond vs. Burrell. I think Rudy Gay is the best athlete that UConn has ever had, but Burrell, Drummond, Cliff Robinson (played 3 positions), Donyell, Marcus Johnson, Tony Robertson, Caron, Kemba and Boat all belong in the discussion. Denham belongs the next level down because he was a little slow for a top athlete. There are certainly some others I missed.

Burrell was a great athlete, but he was also so smart that he was several moves ahead of the other players, which made him seem quicker and more athletic than he was.

 

[intlzncster]

If you think the world's top decathletes are the best athletes in the world then I completely disagree with you. There are a bunch of guys playing in the NFL and NBA that if you trained them for a substantial period of time would become the top decathlete, the top athletes don't train for the decathlon because there is money in it. As I stated in another post there are also a pretty substantial amount of athletes that could play D! in multiple sports but if an athlete has aspirations of playing a sport professionally there is no sense in training for multiple spots. I remember years ago when Tony Ortiz from Waterbury was running faster times in the 100 and 110 hurdles than the top decathletes for the US, I'm sure given his size and strength he could be taught to throw things far as well. He picked football and played at Nebraska but never made the NFL, I'm sure the dreams of playing in the NFL was a much bigger draw than becoming a decathlete.

The point was not that decathletes today are the world's greatest athletes. It was simply that a measure of athletic ability should include coordination in it's definition (balance being a key component). Just because some guy can run faster than another, doesn't necessarily mean he's a better athlete. How about if I guy can scale a vertical peak faster than him? Or swim faster or longer or whatever? Is running more important than swimming? Are there some sort of specific and exact metrics that define athleticism?

For what it's worth, I don't think Drummond was the best UCONN athlete. I'd put Boatright over him pound for pound.

 

[Rico444]

Which athletic attributes do you think Drummond is more superior in? Just wondering which attributes you consider athletic and which are skills.

I tend to separate them this way: skills can be developed through repetition, while athletic abilities are natural and can't be improved upon. Although I guess if you wanted to, you could say someone could run faster if they lost weight or put on muscle in their legs. I would still consider speed an athletic trait.

I also think you have to consider someone's height when talking about athleticism. The bigger you are, the more force is required to move your body around. That's why most seven-footers move like Enocsh Wolf, and why guards usually have higher verticals than power forwards. So that Drummond is athletic at all is impressive, and when you step back and look at HOW athletic he is, you realize how incredible it is.

Now, I'm not going to chime in on who is the more athletic of the two, since it's very difficult to compare across positions because of the height difference. Also, I'm too young to have watched Burrell play outside of highlight videos. But I think the best way to compare the two is through how each stacked up athletically (is that a word?) against players at the same position. I think that's why so many people are going with Drummond; you just don't see big guys that do what he can.

 

[Waquoit]

People say Daany Ainge could have played the 3 major sports at the professional level but I still say without a doubt Michael Jordan is a better athlete than him.

And neither of them could hit.

 

[Excalibur]

I think people are confusing "skilled" and "athletic." Burrell is incredibly skilled in a number of sports. Drummond is incredibly athletic. If you combined Scott's skill with Andre's athleticism, you'd have an unbelievable talent.

Right. Just ignore the fact that he could jump out of (*$&ing building and was easily the fastest guy on the team while here.

Once we accept that skill and coordination are part of athleticism Burrell stands out.

 

[Dogdeacon]

First off, Burrell was a role player in the NBA. I don't see how that's at all arguable. He was great at UConn, and I'm not taking anything away from him, but he was a role player in the NBA.

Secondly, the reason I think you have something against Drummond has to do with your little "tie his shoes" dig in one of your posts.

Drummond posted a 10.83 in the lane agility drills in pre-draft testing, which was a top 10 number in that draft. In the history of pre-draft testing, there's only been one guy over 250 pounds who's had a better number in the lane agility drills. You speculating on his ability to defend forwards and guards is just that, speculation. One of the main premises of your argument is based off of something that you've completely made up in your head, this notion that he can't defend on the perimeter. According to Synergy, when he stepped out to guard the pick and roll guy, the player only shot the ball twice all year, which is pretty indicative of his ability to defend on the perimeter.

My other problem is that you paint Burrell as if he's a rich man's Bruce Bowen as a defender, when Drummond is only 20 years old and already has a higher average defensive rating than Burrell did.

We probably have different definitions of what a "natural athlete" is, which is fine.

If Drummond is such a great natural athlete why was it so difficult for him to shoot free throws? Here's something in the one game that he plays that he doesn't have the coordination to do well. Drummond might be the most explosive athlete but the best natural athlete seems like trying to fit Drummond's unique and exceptional athletic talents into the wrong box.

If we did a 10 sport Olympics and drafted all UConn players ever, Burrell and Dropo are the top picks regardless of the 10 sports.
Burrell = natural athlete
Drummond = freak athleticism

 

[Rico444]

Right. Just ignore the fact that he could jump out of (*$&ing building and was easily the fastest guy on the team while here.

Once we accept that skill and coordination are part of athleticism Burrell stands out.

Did you read my post right above yours?

 

[Excalibur]

Yes, I did, though it was not visible while I was replying. The biggest issue I have with it is the statement that skills can be developed through repetition. Can marginal improvements be made? Sure. But a guy with no coordination is still going to be uncoordinated no matter how much time you spend trying to develop him.

And that's what separates Burrell from Drummond, IMO. Remember that you're discussing two guys that are 10's in terms of speed, quickness, leaping ability, strength, etc.

 

[intlzncster]

I tend to separate them this way: skills can be developed through repetition, while athletic abilities are natural and can't be improved upon. Although I guess if you wanted to, you could say someone could run faster if they lost weight or put on muscle in their legs. I would still consider speed an athletic trait.

But Speed, quickness, strength and hops can also be developed through repetition in training. Is their a ceiling? Sure, but there is in terms of coordination as well.

 

[Rico444]

Yes, I did, though it was not visible while I was replying. The biggest issue I have with it is the statement that skills can be developed through repetition. Can marginal improvements be made? Sure. But a guy with no coordination is still going to be uncoordinated no matter how much time you spend trying to develop him.

And that's what separates Burrell from Drummond, IMO. Remember that you're discussing two guys that are 10's in terms of speed, quickness, leaping ability, strength, etc.

Burrell was obviously much more coordinated than Drummond, I would concede that. But I don't necessarily agree that both were 10s in those categories you listed. If you're 6'6 or 6'7", you're judged differently than if you're 6'11 or 7'0. Drummond is already one of the best centers in the league after two years, Burrell was never close to that level even before the injuries. If he was a world-class athlete for his size, then I can't see how he would fail to get to that level.

 

[Rico444]

But Speed, quickness, strength and hops can also be developed through repetition in training. Is their a ceiling? Sure, but there is in terms of coordination as well.

Athleticism is just really difficult to define, I guess. Part of how it should be defined I'm is how it's applied in the sports world. Hand-eye coordination isn'tusually synonymous with athletic. When Prince Fielder turns on an inside 96 MPH fastball and lines a double down the 1st base line, the announcer usually won't say "Wow, what athleticism!"

 

[johnhuskies95]

If Drummond is such a great natural athlete why was it so difficult for him to shoot free throws? Here's something in the one game that he plays that he doesn't have the coordination to do well. Drummond might be the most explosive athlete but the best natural athlete seems like trying to fit Drummond's unique and exceptional athletic talents into the wrong box.

If we did a 10 sport Olympics and drafted all UConn players ever, Burrell and Dropo are the top picks regardless of the 10 sports.
Burrell = natural athlete
Drummond = freak athleticism

Are you asking me why Drummond isn't able to be a flawless all-around player?

Why did Burrell get shelled during his first season of pro baseball? Even after focusing on one sport, basketball, why did Burrell end up being inferior to Drummond in nearly every single major statistical category in the NBA?

 

[Dogdeacon]

Are you asking me why Drummond isn't able to be a flawless all-around player?

Why did Burrell get shelled during his first season of pro baseball? Even after focusing on one sport, basketball, why did Burrell end up being inferior to Drummond in nearly every single major statistical category in the NBA?

No one is arguing about who is a more effective basketball player. Nonetheless Burrell was a more effective baseball and football player, regardless of getting 'shelled'. I recall Burrell having a pretty decent minor league season during one of his UConn summers. I think that's pretty good for a guy playing two sports. Badmouthing Burrell will never make Drummond a better natural athlete.

Yes, I'm asking if Drummond is such a good natural athlete why can't he shoot free throws. Please note that citing Burrell's 3ptFG% will not be accepted as a rebuttal.

 

[johnhuskies95]

No one is arguing about who is a more effective basketball player. Nonetheless Burrell was a more effective baseball and football player, regardless of getting 'shelled'. I recall Burrell having a pretty decent minor league season during one of his UConn summers. I think that's pretty good for a guy playing two sports. Badmouthing Burrell will never make Drummond a better natural athlete.

Yes, I'm asking if Drummond is such a good natural athlete why can't he shoot free throws. Please note that citing Burrell's 3ptFG% will not be accepted as a rebuttal.

I just don't think that's a valid argument. I have no idea what you're trying to prove. Michael Jordan is universally considered to be a great natural athlete and he struggled to shoot 3's. He shot below 20% from 3 for 5 of his 15 seasons in the NBA.

Every player has an area where they have a weakness. It doesn't take away from their athleticism as a whole.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I just don't think that's a valid argument. I have no idea what you're trying to prove. Michael Jordan is universally considered to be a great natural athlete and he struggled to shoot 3's. He shot below 20% from 3 for 5 of his 15 seasons in the NBA.

Every player has an area where they have a weakness. It doesn't take away from their athleticism as a whole.

Struggling and having a weakness is different that being awkward and the very worst in the league at shooting free throws. Drummond is on pace to have the worst free throw percentage in NBA history (.402 lower than Ben Wallace at .418) and I think has posted bottom-10 worst FT% ever. Drummond struggles with coordination and mentally at the free throw line. It doesn't come naturally.

 

[johnhuskies95]

Struggling and having a weakness is different that being awkward and the very worst in the league at shooting free throws. Drummond is on pace to have the worst free throw percentage in NBA history (.402 lower than Ben Wallace at .418) and I think has posted bottom-10 worst FT% ever. Drummond struggles with coordination and mentally at the free throw line. It doesn't come naturally.

The problem is you're operating with the idea that free-throw percentage is the best or only way to measure coordination, which isn't true. Even if it were, Drummond's other qualities make up for it.

 

[Dogdeacon]

The problem is you're operating with the idea that free-throw percentage is the best or only way to measure coordination, which isn't true. Even if it were, Drummond's other qualities make up for it.

Where did I ever say that? FT are a very small piece of the pie, but much like his awkward jump shooting technique while at UConn I think emblematic of how his game doesn't look like it comes natural.