OT: Basketball's Fake Fundamentals

[husky429]

Exactly. Getting 5th graders to run your "Carolina" play correctly doesn't help their basketball development AT ALL.

You're doing something right if you manage to stop Steph 2.0 from jacking up half-court 3s and dropping a griddy in a 5th-grade game lol.

 

[Palatine]

- Boxing out anywhere but in the post is close to a waste of time. Box out drills in general are overused. Rebounding is 90% heart.

Huh? Pretty sure heart ISN'T 90% of this.

From what I see, players are not taught to box out at all.

 

[Mr. French]

Some of those things are definitely over-taught or over-emphasized.

I have to disagree with a few of them, though. One that stood out is the middle finger shooter...you can be an "index finger" shooter or a "middle finger" shooter. I have shot both ways before but I think I'm much more accurate and consistent and better rotation with my middle finger.

 

[husky429]

Some of those things are definitely over-taught or over-emphasized.

I have to disagree with a few of them, though. One that stood out is the middle finger shooter...you can be an "index finger" shooter or a "middle finger" shooter. I have shot both ways before but I think I'm much more accurate and consistent and better rotation with my middle finger.

It's not something I would ever teach a kid who is already a shooter. But if I'm starting a shooter from scratch, I'm going to recommend index finger.

This one is really not a big deal though, as long as the shooter is consistent.

 

[Mr. French]

It's not something I would ever teach a kid who is already a shooter. But if I'm starting a shooter from scratch, I'm going to recommend index finger.

This one is really not a big deal though, as long as the shooter is consistent.

That's interesting, only because I feel the same way except I find middle finger actually better, lol. So I find it interesting that you specifically would teach a kid to use the index. I feel like it's totally a matter of comfort but I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that!

I've definitely shot both ways in my life, probably without really realizing it. I only noticed it a few years ago when I was diving into shot mechanics, etc. Certain shots for me, for instance a quicker pull up, I get more consistency and rotation with middle finger.

 

[ucp990411]

John Wooden said the dumbest shot in basketball was a layup with your off hand. He said to use your strong hand no matter what side of the basket you were on

 

[husky429]

From what I see, players are not taught to box out at all.

They are, they just dont do it. If nothing else, this should be a signal that we need to change the way we teach rebounding

 

[husky429]

That's interesting, only because I feel the same way except I find middle finger actually better, lol. So I find it interesting that you specifically would teach a kid to use the index. I feel like it's totally a matter of comfort but I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that!

I've definitely shot both ways in my life, probably without really realizing it. I only noticed it a few years ago when I was diving into shot mechanics, etc. Certain shots for me, for instance a quicker pull up, I get more consistency and rotation with middle finger.

Honestly, this one I don't have as strong of an opinion on as my first post would have suggested. I wanted to get people stirred. If a kid felt more comfortable lining up a middle finger, I'd happily coach them to use the middle finger. As long as we're doing the same thing every shot, I'm fine with it. Simplicity and repeatability are more important than anything.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

children, new or newish to the game, should absolutely be taught to box out, for the simple reason that it makes them, at least, turn and look to where the ball is currently going, and not continue to stare at nothingness. they can't even think of grabbing it if they can't see it.
they're children, and highly prone to, when not seeing the task at hand, drifting off into thoughts of the crowd, or their sock game, or if coach will be taking them to micky d's after.
i also teach free throw shooting to the new and newish to the game, by having them stand at the line, then shaking their seemingly dominant hand, and grabbing the index finger - 'take this, point it at the front of the rim, then throw it up there doing that as best as u can.' of course, an observant coach will notice if they are naturally hardwired to lead with the middle finger. amazingly successful as an intro to 'shooting.'
i luv the drill where the player, of any age, holds the ball between the legs with one hand in front of the body, and one hand behind, then switches hands without letting it drop, over and over.
makes them at one with the ball.
sometimes, i give them a greased ball. touch, finger tips, an all that.
once this is reasonably accomplished, then we move on to 'same kind of body movement, now, just dribble it around and thru the legs.'
be the ball.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Exactly. Getting 5th graders to run your "Carolina" play correctly doesn't help their basketball development AT ALL.

I disagree with you on this. A few basic set plays are a great way to get kids thinking about spacing and movement in basketball. By the third or fourth practice in 5th grade I would teach my teams a high post give and go. The center learns how to catch the ball in traffic, look for the cutter, and then react if her or his defender sells out to stop the pass. You can build a lot of offense out from that until there are sophisticated movements and reads.

Alternatively, a lot of coaches think they are basketball experts because they were the stars when they were young and they want kids to play like they did, which was a lot of 1-on-1 hero ball where the rest of the team sets screens or watches. I watch high school games where the coaching is abysmal, because the coach basically leaves the team of average athletes to play free form hoops, which is what that coach liked to do when they were young.

 

[The Yakk]

One thing about boxing out: if you are going to coach your players to box out when the shot goes up, then you need all five guys to do it. If 3 or 4 box out and 1 or 2 don't bother, then it is too easy for opponents to slip into space and grab an offensive rebound.

40 years later, I still have a clear memory of the finish of a UConn-Nova game from 1981 or 82. Tied in the final seconds; shot goes up and is missed; John Pinone has his man boxed out perfectly, but Karl Hobbs--all 5'10" of him--slips in front of Pinone for an easy put-back and the win.

Either you need to coach all 5 to box out as a team, or you need your rebounders to crash to the spots where the ball is likely to go when the shot is taken.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

bad basketball 'fashion.'
back when, there was a ridiculous court fashion, now mostly gone, where some players would wear sweatpants with one leg rolled up to below the knee. absolutely nothing to do with game, and everything to do with fashion. i teased a few pals so afflicted. they were always like 'leave me alone.'
over time, i had a few kids show up at opening practice with this 'look.'
'ya, no, we don't do that here. period. u look ridiculous, and separates u from the rest of the team. did i say that u look ridiculous? iffn u need to stand out for reasons other than game, then paint ur hair or something like that, but the proper uniform is the one that everyone has, and forget any thoughts of big jewelry.'
in this new era where the pick up courts are saddeningly empty, u really don't see the pants thing or big jewelry much anymore.
good riddance. let's just hope and pray that when the warm weather returns, so will a few more players.
i find that a current fashion of 'leggings' is problematic. at first, it gives a 'lift' sensation, but after a while, especially indoors, it feels confining, and often sweaty and itchy. experimenting with them at times (it never made the cut), it was exhilarating when i peeled them off later in the game, tho for others, to each his own. some kids are showing up lately with them.

john wooden, at first practice, would teach the grown men the proper way to tie their shoes. for youth hoops, so do i. not necessary much for adults these days. shoe culture an all that.

 

[ucp990411]

It is the job of those that coach youth sports to teach the kids how to play , not to teach them plays. When I started coaching high school I would go to middle school games and watch the coaches with their white boards call time out and draw up plays. The plays usually broke down after the first pass. I had to stop going because these coaches drove me nuts.

 

[jake14mw]

I disagree with you on this. A few basic set plays are a great way to get kids thinking about spacing and movement in basketball. By the third or fourth practice in 5th grade I would teach my teams a high post give and go. The center learns how to catch the ball in traffic, look for the cutter, and then react if her or his defender sells out to stop the pass. You can build a lot of offense out from that until there are sophisticated movements and reads.

Alternatively, a lot of coaches think they are basketball experts because they were the stars when they were young and they want kids to play like they did, which was a lot of 1-on-1 hero ball where the rest of the team sets screens or watches. I watch high school games where the coaching is abysmal, because the coach basically leaves the team of average athletes to play free form hoops, which is what that coach liked to do when they were young.

You are saying you disagree, but then you talking about teaching kids an action, not a play. Also, you reference hero ball. Are you assuming that because I don't favor spending a lot of practice time teaching kids plays that I suggest you just let the kids do whatever they want? I believe you should be teaching them concepts like spacing, and movement, and basic rules and let them think and learn for themselves. What I have done in the past was give them rules and concepts that create movements and actions that have purpose, rather than numerous plays.

Kids all learn differently and at different rates. For some of them, learning your "Carolina" play, even if it only has 5 steps, is extremely difficult. They wind up playing worried about remembering the next step of the play, and not thinking and seeing the court. If the time spent learning plays is really spent teaching them concepts, and the "whys" of plays, then great. But I have seen coaches spend the majority of precious practice time teaching them to memorize the choreography of 5 plays, because they believe these plays are the magic plays that help them win.

I just simply believe in teaching kids how to play instead of teaching plays. You sometimes have to use plays to do that, but it's a BIG difference.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

You are saying you disagree, but then you talking about teaching kids an action, not a play. Also, you reference hero ball. Are you assuming that because I don't favor spending a lot of practice time teaching kids plays that I suggest you just let the kids do whatever they want? I believe you should be teaching them concepts like spacing, and movement, and basic rules and let them think and learn for themselves. What I have done in the past was give them rules and concepts that create movements and actions that have purpose, rather than numerous plays.

Kids all learn differently and at different rates. For some of them, learning your "Carolina" play, even if it only has 5 steps, is extremely difficult. They wind up playing worried about remembering the next step of the play, and not thinking and seeing the court. If the time spent learning plays is really spent teaching them concepts, and the "whys" of plays, then great. But I have seen coaches spend the majority of precious practice time teaching them to memorize the choreography of 5 plays, because they believe these plays are the magic plays that help them win.

I just simply believe in teaching kids how to play instead of teaching plays. You sometimes have to use plays to do that, but it's a BIG difference.

I am not all that interested in a debate about where a play ends and an "action" begins. To me, it is a question of structured offense vs. unstructured offense. I like structured, especially with girls teams. They are mentally much more mature in middle school than boys, and the smarter ones actually really liked the problem solving aspect of running an offense. Both boys and girls do better with a starting point to get the ball moving and create openings in the defense. Call that an action or a play or whatever you want. Most youth coaches prefer unstructured, giving the ball to their best player and clearing out.

A simple test of free form vs. structured offense is whether a team runs the same offense vs. man, 2-3 zone, and trap zone defenses. If a team was going to run the same offense against me no matter what D I was in, I would just keep changing defenses. Trap zones would usually get them.

If I could take a time machine and do my travel and AAU coaching career over again, a trap zone (1-3-1, 3-2, 2-2-1) would be my base defense. The kids love it, anyone can play it as long as they are willing to hustle, it creates a lot of transition offense, and only about 30% of opposing coaches knew what to do with them.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

One fundamental that is not taught enough anymore and it makes me crazy: USE THE BACKBOARD on close shots. Anything inside of 5 feet should go off the bank. It is amazing how many college centers miss shots because they won't use the bank, and the kids mimic the stars. Going straight in the hoop takes 10 percentage points off the accuracy of a close shot.

Mikan drill should be a staple of every practice.