BAD NEWS AND GOOD NEWS

[PUPPY4]

The bad news: zone blocking is back

The good news: Foley is teaching it

 

[sdhusky]

The bad news: zone blocking is back

The good news: Foley is teaching it

Nothing wrong with zone blocking. It's all just about execution.

I wonder if this is because the guys we have are more suited for zone blocking or if this is the long-term philosophy?

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

No bad news here IMO. If I'm not mistaken, we've always kind of run a zone blocking scheme before PGDL got here. It was just not as complicated as GDL's system. And it wasn't taught by terrible teacher.

The one knock on Foley (and I think he's a great line coach) is that our pass blocking was lacking at times. Maybe it had something to do with Endres and Frazier not being mobile and taking forever to go through their reads, but even with TL back there, the pass blocking could've been better.

But, in Foley I trust.

 

[CTMike]

Zone blocking is not inherently bad.

Lineman who are "talked at" instead of taught, who - let's face it - may not have been as regimented in the weight room - those are inherently bad.

I am MUCH more optimistic that our trenches will be significantly stronger and better taught than in years past. Experience will come.

Also- I'm not knocking the work our guys put in. They put in more than I ever could. But it's clear that, strength training wise, Balis is pushing to a higher level than before.

 

[uconndogs]

I don't know enough football to know if the problems under P and GDL were as a result of zone blocking schemes or were more all encompassing. My sense is the latter. The running game went completely to and to my eye, the OL never attached the line of scrimmage when we ran. It was also crystal clear that the players did not even remotely understand their assignments. Once P and GDL were given their walking papers the OL and running game immediately and markedly improved. It is my very strong sense that GDL made things overwhelming complex, because he was the smartest guy in the room with Xs and Os.

Diaco has been very clear that we will have a power rushing attach as a base to our offense. Expect RB by committee and some bigger bodies to get their share of carries. Run and play action. With the receivers and QBs on the roster if we can buy time keeping defenses honest there will be a solid passing attach. Have to hope the young OLmen are ready.

 

[PUPPY4]

I'm more familiar with gap/power blocking schemes, so I'm biased.
But the research I'm doing shows zone requires double teams at the point of attack based on the defensive scheme.
That being said, it makes the Olinemen think, communicate, and work together.
So I can understand it will take some time to perfect, BTW I don't recall seeing many if any double teams at the point of attack(correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[MattMang23]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00AU8E2II

Excuse me, but if this can't teach a player to zone block, nothing will. This guy coaches in the NFL for chrysanthemum sakes.

 

[huskysupporter]

I hate zone blocking. With a passion. Very difficult scheme.

 

[sportsart]

If the comments HCBD made about not asking players to do something they aren't able to do, holds true, then we should be OK. In Diaco I trust.

 

[Kgun7]

I found this summary on smartfootball.com:

http://smartfootball.com/run-game/a...de-zone-and-outside-zone#sthash.cse0z7bG.dpbs

Comments Mike Martz made in a Paul Zimmerman interview back in 1999.

"...Power running. You've got to be able to run the ball when you go to a three-wide receiver set, and you've got to run with power. By that I mean behind zone blocking, which is a big departure from the San Francisco system. Theirs was man-blocking, with a lot of cut-blocks and misdirection. Ours is straight power. Not many people realize this, but if we hadn't have gotten Marshall (Faulk) we were prepared to go with another excellent zone-blocking runner, Robert Holcombe. It takes a certain type, a guy who can run with power, who's good at picking his way through."

 

[Kgun7]

Re-watching the Memphis game from last year ... my untrained eye detects zone blocking on most plays. Pretty sure we never departed from zone blocking after P & GDL departed.

 

[Doggie Style]

The issue with zone blocking is that you typically need a two way back to execute that scheme, which we do not have. Brown, JT, Dixon... Fine. They can shuffle and find the hole as the play progresses, then run someone over if necessary to get into the next level of defenders. We do NOT have that running game with LM, and I expect similar results this year compared to last year. The only thing that will change that is if we can continue to progress with our passing game this year. I expect improvement in that department and am looking for Phillips to finally live up to the hype.

 

[PUPPY4]

LM comes from a double wing offense which required him to run into a scrum and find a way out, I don't think that's the issue.
Any blocking scheme requires positive movement at the LOS, which we didn't have much success at.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Are they running a full ZBS system or installing ZBS concepts? It's tough in college to run this really well because it is a difficult scheme to learn and needs even more O-Line cohesion than normal. That being said, if it is run well, it can do wonders for an offense. It tires and frustrates D-Lineman to no end and if you have a QB that can sell a PA stretch play, will lead to some of the most open receivers you've ever seen. But you have to find athletic enough linemen who are disciplined enough to learn it and a one-cut runner, whose tendency isn't to dance in the backfield looking for extra yards, both of which are difficult propositions in college football.

 

[PUPPY4]

Are they runny a full ZBS system or installing ZBS concepts? It's tough in college to run this really well because it is a difficult scheme to learn and needs even more O-Line cohesion than normal. That being said, if it is run well, it can do wonders for an offense. It tires and frustrates D-Lineman to no end and if you have a QB that can sell a PA stretch play, will lead to some of the most open receivers you've ever seen. But you have to find athletic enough linemen who are disciplined enough to learn it and a one-cut runner, whose tendency isn't to dance in the backfield looking for extra yards, both of which are difficult propositions in college football.

At this level they should be able to do this, it does take time to perfect, but it shouldn't be a problem for this level.

 

[ShakyTheMohel]

Am I the only one who was scared to open this thread? I was dreading opening this thread expecting to read about a player lost for academic reasons or injury.

But...on topic...I agree with the earlier comments that BD will design the scheme that fits the players. I wont let the ineffectiveness of GDL's scheme taint my opinion of zone blocking in general. I am sure Foley is making BD very aware of what the players can and cannot do. And since BD is a defensive guy....I would guess he is trusting his coach's opinion.

 

[gioff23]

I think people overreact to the ZB concept. Look at a team like the Wisconsin or Alabama (or even the NFL Steelers) and one thinks power running, but they incorporate zone blocking.

Historically, our challenge was that we needed the running game to open up the passing game, and even at its best (the run game), the passing O was usually so weak, good teams defied us to pass. Our pass blocking looked weak because it often took the receivers too much time to break free on a route.

Regardless of blocking schemes, one would reasonably expect that the new staff will figure out what TJW figured out late - we need the passing game to open up the run. ZB or old fashioned straight ahead blocking, we will need to create space from the outside in, not the inside out.

 

[PUPPY4]

Certain plays require "zone" blocks, but as a staple it's concepts can be difficult.
The design is made for smaller Olineman to get the best of bigger Dlinemen.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

At this level they should be able to do this, it does take time to perfect, but it shouldn't be a problem for this level.

It's not even as much a question of aptitude, but of time. Even in the NFL it can be a rough go in the beginning and they don't generally have the turnover that a college program has. And you need to have the athletes for it. Plenty of guys who are recruited for a power scheme just won't fit in a full ZBS system.

 

[B1GEast]

as long as foley is in contol, it's all good news to me

 

[Carl Spackler]

Kelly used a zone blocking scheme at Cincinnati and brought it to Notre Dame. They didn't accept it well at Notre Dame, at first, but it started working. THey had personnel mismatches with what they wanted to do at first with the blocking. I don't know what the guy at Central Michigan did, but it's not a reach for me to think that he taught zone blocking, getting a tackle drafted into the NFL with the #1 pick. Not much of a surprise here.

THe basics of inside-out zone, or outside-in, or however it's taught aren't that hard. You need guys to simply know what they need to do, and then go do it. Football really isn't that hard of a sport. Deleone was a sh---t teacher and coach. But in theory, we've been recruiting for at least 2 years to match players with a zone system, so hopefully the learning curve with the new coaching staff on offense is pretty steep.

Really, when you look at the projected OL, this is the first season where' we're going to have a bunch of players up front on the two deep, that were theoretically recruited to play zone based offense on the line, rather than the veteran players we had up front for the past 2 seasons that were recruited a while back. Seems like a match of personnel to system - in theory.

THe key word in all of that - theory.

 

[PUPPY4]

It's not even as much a question of aptitude, but of time. Even in the NFL it can be a rough go in the beginning and they don't generally have the turnover that a college program has. And you need to have the athletes for it. Plenty of guys who are recruited for a power scheme just won't fit in a full ZBS system.

I agree you need the right kind of athlete, time shouldn't be a stumbling block.
The teacher is probabley the key here.

 

[PUPPY4]

t

Kelly used a zone blocking scheme at Cincinnati and brought it to Notre Dame. They didn't accept it well at Notre Dame, at first, but it started working. THey had personnel mismatches with what they wanted to do at first with the blocking. I don't know what the guy at Central Michigan did, but it's not a reach for me to think that he taught zone blocking, getting a tackle drafted into the NFL with the #1 pick. Not much of a surprise here.

THe basics of inside-out zone, or outside-in, or however it's taught aren't that hard. You need guys to simply know what they need to do, and then go do it. Football really isn't that hard of a sport. Deleone was a sh---t teacher and coach. But in theory, we've been recruiting for at least 2 years to match players with a zone system, so hopefully the learning curve with the new coaching staff on offense is pretty steep.

Really, when you look at the projected OL, this is the first season where' we're going to have a bunch of players up front on the two deep, that were theoretically recruited to play zone based offense on the line, rather than the veteran players we had up front for the past 2 seasons that were recruited a while back. Seems like a match of personnel to system - in theory.

THe key word in all of that - theory.

The in/out zone all require the linemen to get to the second level, we may have been using a very different version.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I agree you need the right kind of athlete, time shouldn't be a stumbling block.
The teacher is probabley the key here.

The teacher is absolutely the number one key. My opinion comes from watching the Texans year in and year out. When the ZBS first was installed it was a struggle, but with the same unit it for a couple of years it became dominant. Once things started changing again, it all hit the fan. I don't think you can overestimate how important the cohesion of a ZBS line is. It's a big factor with any line, but when you're much less focused on one-on-one blocks, that importance is hugely magnified. If they're going to run this, they had better be confident that they have the right players in place.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The teacher is absolutely the number one key. My opinion comes from watching the Texans year in and year out. When the ZBS first was installed it was a struggle, but with the same unit it for a couple of years it became dominant. Once things started changing again, it all hit the fan. I don't think you can overestimate how important the cohesion of a ZBS line is. It's a big factor with any line, but when you're much less focused on one-on-one blocks, that importance is hugely magnified. If they're going to run this, they had better be confident that they have the right players in place.

That Texans zone system is different than than the inside-out or outside in (there are various terminologies). That system Gibbs teaches is about the OL's all getting moving together horizontally and cutting down backside pursuit and creating lanes. He's been teaching it for years. It got John Elway two super bowls in his later years. It's essentially cut blocking - which is legal if you do it right, but Gibbs is on record teaching linemen to go for the knees. When defenders have their eyes and hands down to protect their legs, it's hard to make tackles. Inside out systems are different. I would bet that we're going to be using inside out stuff.