Athlon 2019/2020 WCBB Pre Season Rankings

[mbr33ct]

Well, if WNBA mock drafts are any indication of how good a draft eligible guard is, two of Oregon State's guards (Slocum, Pivec) represent:
1. 2 of the 6 best guards in the country according to ESPNW
2. 2 of the 7 best guards in the country according to wnba.com
3. 2 of the 9 best guards in the country according to draftsite.com

thus providing some credence to LoTrader's view. No other team has more than 1 guard in any of the "top player" mock draft lists put forth by these websites.

Could it be there's ONLY one Senior on the team?

 

[LoTrader]

I read your opening statement. I read it to mean that OSU's 2 seniors were 2 of the best guards "in the country", period. Just as you wrote it. Maybe if you said "in their class"?
Being the 9th best guard in a class usually means that your WNBA career lasts one season, if that.

OSU has 2 great guards. Where do they fit on the national depth chart? High I'd say. Let's leave it there.

Destiny Slocum is draft eligible, but technically a "junior"

 

[LoTrader]

And they are calling this a weak draft... and huge drop off after 1 and 2. But yes your point is made.

Who is the "they" you are referencing, that is calling this a weak draft?

 

[DallasBUFan]

Who is the "they" you are referencing, that is calling this a weak draft?

WNBA commentators during the games, ESPN analyst articles, etc..... One article starts with the 2020 draft may not be the deep 2019 draft.....etc

 

[newfrontier]

Could it be there's ONLY one Senior on the team?

yes, of course. I was merely trying to make a point that ORST has 2 of the best draft eligible (senior or age
eligible junior) guards in the country, at least according 3 mock drafts. I was not clear on this from the start.

 

[SCGamecock]

IMO, Dangerfield is the best player on the UConn team. I actually believe she is the best guard in NCAA WBB!

I like Dangerfield, but.....

Ionescu?

 

[Jmsdawg]

I like Dangerfield, but.....

Ionescu?

I see Ionescu and Carter as a forwards, Both Ionescu and Carter are better shooters and overall players but CD is the better guard, Her handling the ball and getting other players involved is excellent. As for the WNBA draft, If I were making the decision as to which player to take, it would be Ionescu!

 

[TheFarmFan]

I see Ionescu and Carter as a forwards, Both Ionescu and Carter are better shooters and overall players but CD is the better guard, Her handling the ball and getting other players involved is excellent. As for the WNBA draft, If I were making the decision as to which player to take, it would be Ionescu!

With respect, y'all are making stuff up. Sabrina averaged 8.2 assists per game, which is more than two more than Crystal's 5.9. And she did it while sharing the point duties with Maite Cazorla, who dished 4.3 assists herself. Ionescu is a generous 5'11" who plays point guard in college - I truly don't see how she's suddenly going to be playing a 3 or 4 forward position in the W.

Sabrina is the best guard in college basketball period, and while I love me some CD, pardon the expression, claims that CD is the best guard in WCBB and that Ionescu is actually a forward are "fake news."

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

I see Ionescu and Carter as a forwards, Both Ionescu and Carter are better shooters and overall players but CD is the better guard, Her handling the ball and getting other players involved is excellent. As for the WNBA draft, If I were making the decision as to which player to take, it would be Ionescu!

Chennedy Carter is 5'7" and a very good athlete. But.... she is not a forward and never will be at the collegiate or pro levels. Perhaps Jmsdawg was intending to refer to Ionescu and Carter as shooting guards (2s) rather than "forwards." Ionescu needs to have the ball in her hands on the offensive end. Ionescu may continue to limit her turnovers next season by having Minyon Moore bring the ball up the court and break pressure (as Cazorla did the past three seasons). However, Moore will need to defer to Ionescu and stay out of her way on the offensive end for Oregon in '19-'20.

 

[Alydar]

With respect, y'all are making stuff up. Sabrina averaged 8.2 assists per game, which is more than two more than Crystal's 5.9. And she did it while sharing the point duties with Maite Cazorla, who dished 4.3 assists herself. Ionescu is a generous 5'11" who plays point guard in college - I truly don't see how she's suddenly going to be playing a 3 or 4 forward position in the W.

Sabrina is the best guard in college basketball period, and while I love me some CD, pardon the expression, claims that CD is the best guard in WCBB and that Ionescu is actually a forward are "fake news."

Last season UConn had 748 assists to Oregon's 717. If you actually watched UConn's offense much over the last 20 years you'd know that the assists are distributed more with UConn. Given that UConn's starting front court had 348 assists to Oregon's 148, the reason for the difference between Dangerfield and Ionescu is clear to anyone with untinted eyes.

Hebard, Sabally, Boley - 154 assists
Samuelson, Collier, Walker - 348 assists

Should I assume from those numbers that the Oregon front court can't pass? No, the reason is because the Oregon offense was built around Ionescu while UConn employs a different system where the pg doesn't have the role that she does at Oregon. I assure you that if she had played for CVS at Rutgers Ionescu's assists would have been mediocre. Not only is Rutgers a defensive team, they play a deliberate offense and use the clock so the scores tend to be low (<60/game). And they can't shoot.

UConn/Oregon should be an interesting game. I give the edge to UConn based on the 3 hour jet lag. The history of PAC12 teams travelling east during the season is not good. Stanford has played poorly east of the big muddy more often than not. (Maybe they can take the Maples refs with them next time.)

 

[Alydar]

All good analysis, none responsive to my point: Ionescu is a point guard (something your post acknowledges but others were contending wasn't so), and the best one in the country. I won't dispute for a minute that Geno runs a better, more integrated system than Graves. That's why I'm here rather than whatever board there is for Ducks fans.

Non-responsive? You used raw assist stats to "prove" Ionescu was a better pg. I showed the flaw in your reasoning. Assists and who gets them are in no small measure a function of a teams system. That's what my Rutgers comment was about. Ionescu would have been the same player at Rutgers but her stats would have labelled her as average in assists, which would be wrong.
I'm not going to dispute Ionescu's value. That is obvious. My comment was about the usefulness of your evidence, which I thought was superficial.

How many UConn games have you watched? Most UConn games are at 4:00pm on the left coast. If you only saw the big games (N Dame, Baylor, Louisville) you saw UConn on the road against the best teams in the country. Then look at Sabrina vs Baylor: 18pt (6-24) 4rb 6as.

Dangerfield has played with 4 1st round W picks in the last 2 years and has been an afterthought in most of the articles written about UConn during that time (and has been playing hurt for 2 years) while Ionescu has been the main star at Oregon for her 1st 3 years.

I'm not suggesting that Ionescu isn't the much better pro prospect. I just don't see the same gap between the 2 players as they enter their senior years that you seem to think exists.

 

[LoTrader]

The gap between Sabrina and Dangerfield is significant, and that is the case with all the NCAA guards/wings when compared to Sabrina. I've not seen Crystal be able to score from anywhere on the floor, against any defense, at anytime, and at will, like Sabrina. Crystal does not rebound like Sabrina. Crystal does not pass like Sabrina. I've said this before, and I am an OSU fan, not a Duck fan, Sabrina's game most resembles Larry Bird's game. She excels at everything, and, has the highest of basketball IQs, and, is fearless. There is not anything this kid doesn't believe she can do, as an individual, or as a teammate. She is a once in a decade player. Crystal is a fantastic player, but she is not in the same league as Sabrina.

 

[Alydar]

In the first place Sabrina is without question the best guard coming into the season. As for pro, she is a 6'er and Dangerfield is 5'5". Their pro prospects are night and day. But this is still college. CD is the primary ball-handler bring the ball over halfcourt. She then becomes one of 5 offensive players who for the most part are all scoring options. Sabrina didn't bring the ball over halfcourt as much last season, leaving it to Cazorla et al. Many possessions she didn't even touch the ball for the 1st half of the possession. But she was the go-to player late in every possession and to her credit she took full advantage to drive to score or drive to dish. In that regard she was like L. Bird as he was in college, except she plays with better players. So comparing Dangerfield and Ionescu isn't a case of like vs like. In fact historically UConn players never lead the country in individual stats except fg%. The depth of talent spreads the stats around. But UConn is historically high up in team stats, at least once leading the country in pts/poss both offensively and defensively.
But before anointing her as a future WNBA star look at those numbers she put up in the biggest game of her life last year against Baylor. 6-24. Baylor decided to let her shoot rather than let her assist and Sabrina had a tough time. Compare that to Stewart, who played her best ball in 4 FF's, against the best competition.
For that alone I chuckle at your Larry Bird comparison. Larry was a winner. Fact. Ionescu may or may not be a winner. She failed in her 1st attempt. Is that harsh? Yeah, but if she is as good as you say it's time to do it on a big stage, away from that ugly floor. (It may look nice in person but on TV it looks like two layers of paint have partially peeled, revealing a third layer).

 

[LoTrader]

In the first place Sabrina is without question the best guard coming into the season. As for pro, she is a 6'er and Dangerfield is 5'5". Their pro prospects are night and day. But this is still college. CD is the primary ball-handler bring the ball over halfcourt. She then becomes one of 5 offensive players who for the most part are all scoring options. Sabrina didn't bring the ball over halfcourt as much last season, leaving it to Cazorla et al. Many possessions she didn't even touch the ball for the 1st half of the possession. But she was the go-to player late in every possession and to her credit she took full advantage to drive to score or drive to dish. In that regard she was like L. Bird as he was in college, except she plays with better players. So comparing Dangerfield and Ionescu isn't a case of like vs like. In fact historically UConn players never lead the country in individual stats except fg%. The depth of talent spreads the stats around. But UConn is historically high up in team stats, at least once leading the country in pts/poss both offensively and defensively.
But before anointing her as a future WNBA star look at those numbers she put up in the biggest game of her life last year against Baylor. 6-24. Baylor decided to let her shoot rather than let her assist and Sabrina had a tough time. Compare that to Stewart, who played her best ball in 4 FF's, against the best competition.
For that alone I chuckle at your Larry Bird comparison. Larry was a winner. Fact. Ionescu may or may not be a winner. She failed in her 1st attempt. Is that harsh? Yeah, but if she is as good as you say it's time to do it on a big stage, away from that ugly floor. (It may look nice in person but on TV it looks like two layers of paint have partially peeled, revealing a third layer).

Looking forward to the UO vs UCONN game. Will reveal all the layers of paint. I am a UCONN fan, and there is no question the quality of players that come from that program, ready to launch in the WNBA.

 

[Alydar]

Looking forward to the UO vs UCONN game. Will reveal all the layers of paint. I am a UCONN fan, and there is no question the quality of players that come from that program, ready to launch in the WNBA.

If UConn were to (unthinkable) change their mascot I nominate the Phoenix. UConn has died several times in the last 20 years, at least according to the media . After Stewart/Tuck/Samuelson left, a funeral was held at ESPN and several fan boards. Going into the NCAA's late that season, surprise surprise surprise, UConn was the #1 team in the country and undefeated. And many future AA's have been dismissed as UConn freshmen. Even Stewart was a disappointment until late in her freshman season. That's one reason I am confident about Williams & ONO.

Who knows? UConn could fall this year. But I'll make book that if that happens it won't fall far and it won't fall for long.

 

[nwhoopfan]

But before anointing her as a future WNBA star look at those numbers she put up in the biggest game of her life last year against Baylor. 6-24.

You can make anybody look bad when you cherry pick stats.

In UConn's loss to Baylor Collier was 6-18, KLS 4-16, and Dangerfield was 4-18. Dangerfield was also 2-11 in the FF loss to Notre Dame.

The previous year Dangerfield was 3-11 in the FF loss to Notre Dame.

 

[Alydar]

You can make anybody look bad when you cherry pick stats.

In UConn's loss to Baylor Collier was 6-18, KLS 4-16, and Dangerfield was 4-18. Dangerfield was also 2-11 in the FF loss to Notre Dame.

The previous year Dangerfield was 3-11 in the FF loss to Notre Dame.

The difference is that I'm not touting any of those players as far away the best of their class. I have doubts as to Dangerfield;s career in the W. Too small. And Collier's fitness to play in the W is no longer in question.

I guess what I disagree about is the certainty that Ionescu is the one. I come from a background of horse racing and if I had a dollar for every article I read touting a "can't lose" horse I'd be typing this from my mountainside home in Maui. Horses that run very fast against mediocre competition often can't run that fast when the class of the competition toughens. Ionescu had her first national "big game" vs Baylor and she was ineffective. I won't be shocked if she is the MOP of the FF. I'll enjoy watching Ionescu and I'll let the season play itself out.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

I agree with much of what Alydar writes above about Ionescu. She will face challenges and adversity in adapting to the speed and strength in the WNBA. Her situation in Oregon has e been a near-perfect one for her to shine. She didn't shoot well from the field during her freshman season. Now, her three-point shooting is one of her strengths.

Having seen Ionescu play at the AAU level through her first three years in college, I believe it is her competitiveness, high basketball IQ, and disdain for losing that separates her from the other top guards in the country. Some of that competitiveness and occasional pouting is why she has a number of detractors who don't like how she handles herself on the court. Unless she takes a significant step back during her senior season, she will be drafted #1 overall next April and will quickly be thrust into the fire against stronger and more athletic players. That hasn't prevented her in the past from excelling at a very high level. I expect Ionescu to quickly figure out what she can get away with and can't get away with at the WNBA level. I also expect her to be a challenge for her coaches to manage throughout her professional career. Not all of her teammates at Oregon have enjoyed playing with her. The egos of WNBA players will only tolerate so much from a teammate who can be perceived as being "me first" too much of the time.

 

[nwhoopfan]

The difference is that I'm not touting any of those players as far away the best of their class. I have doubts as to Dangerfield;s career in the W. Too small. And Collier's fitness to play in the W is no longer in question.

I guess what I disagree about is the certainty that Ionescu is the one. I come from a background of horse racing and if I had a dollar for every article I read touting a "can't lose" horse I'd be typing this from my mountainside home in Maui. Horses that run very fast against mediocre competition often can't run that fast when the class of the competition toughens. Ionescu had her first national "big game" vs Baylor and she was ineffective. I won't be shocked if she is the MOP of the FF. I'll enjoy watching Ionescu and I'll let the season play itself out.

I am not a betting man. I leave the horses alone.

I've seen Ionescu have some really bad games, but I've seen her have some huge games, and most of the time she's very impactful. I'm a huge fan of consistency. In my mind Plum's Sr. year is the most consistently excellent I've ever seen anyone play at the college level. Her pro career has left plenty to be desired so far though. We'll have to wait and see w/ Ionescu. I'm not quite sure if she's a generational talent or not, but I definitely expect her to be successful at the next level. She and Oregon have improved each year she's been there, so I wouldn't be surprised to see at least another incremental step forward.

I'm not sure about a semi final being her first national "big game." I think there were plenty of big games prior to that. But if it truly was her first "big game," how about Taurasi's first game at the same stage? I seem to recall it was fairly disastrous. She went on to do okay.

 

[Alydar]

I am not a betting man. I leave the horses alone.

I've seen Ionescu have some really bad games, but I've seen her have some huge games, and most of the time she's very impactful. I'm a huge fan of consistency. In my mind Plum's Sr. year is the most consistently excellent I've ever seen anyone play at the college level. Her pro career has left plenty to be desired so far though. We'll have to wait and see w/ Ionescu. I'm not quite sure if she's a generational talent or not, but I definitely expect her to be successful at the next level. She and Oregon have improved each year she's been there, so I wouldn't be surprised to see at least another incremental step forward.

I'm not sure about a semi final being her first national "big game." I think there were plenty of big games prior to that. But if it truly was her first "big game," how about Taurasi's first game at the same stage? I seem to recall it was fairly disastrous. She went on to do okay.

You have a strong case for Ionescu but you use poor analogies. Taurasi's meltdown came as a freshman. Ionescu folded as a junior. Taurasi re-established her rep by winning the next 3 titles, 2 with her team on her back. This is Ionescu's last shot at her first. And actually I'm only talking about her performance, the win is gravy.

And name a bigger game than a Final Four semi? The only one bigger is the final.

 

[nwhoopfan]

And name a bigger game than a Final Four semi? The only one bigger is the final.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall Geno talking about how difficult Regional Final games are. Have to win that one to get to the Final 4. Any number of big games during the season that are important to position yourself to get favorable seeding/location in the Tourney.

As far as Taurasi vs. Ionescu, it's really apples and oranges. You are correct that Sabrina had a poor National semi-final game as an upperclassmen while Diana was just a Fr. Their circumstances were very different though, which adds some context to everything. Taurasi joined a team coming off a National Title who returned just about everybody. UConn was in the process of establishing themselves as the top program in women's hoops (Taurasi certainly played a big role in that). Ionescu joined an Oregon program that had been bad for a long time and had virtually no history to speak of. Ionescu leading an Oregon team that had a fairly mediocre season to the Elite 8 her Fr. year has to be considered a significant accomplishment. I'd say their 3rd round win vs. Maryland was definitely a "big game" and Ionescu played very well in that one.

 

[Alydar]

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall Geno talking about how difficult Regional Final games are. Have to win that one to get to the Final 4. Any number of big games during the season that are important to position yourself to get favorable seeding/location in the Tourney.

As far as Taurasi vs. Ionescu, it's really apples and oranges. You are correct that Sabrina had a poor National semi-final game as an upperclassmen while Diana was just a Fr. Their circumstances were very different though, which adds some context to everything. Taurasi joined a team coming off a National Title who returned just about everybody. UConn was in the process of establishing themselves as the top program in women's hoops (Taurasi certainly played a big role in that). Ionescu joined an Oregon program that had been bad for a long time and had virtually no history to speak of. Ionescu leading an Oregon team that had a fairly mediocre season to the Elite 8 her Fr. year has to be considered a significant accomplishment. I'd say their 3rd round win vs. Maryland was definitely a "big game" and Ionescu played very well in that one.

Can't disagree with any of that.

I'm going to be interested in seeing whether ESPN will make her the poster-child this year. You'd figure it would be her or Cox. But then Cox plays for a Fox team and Ionecu who except a couple on ESPN is exclusively on PAC12Network, which plays on Friday night, a traditional NBA night on ESPN. Besides, with a lock on the ACC and SEC I'd guess that ESPN's preseason lists won't be as full of west coasters as these early publications.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I'm going to be interested in seeing whether ESPN will make her the poster-child this year. You'd figure it would be her or Cox. But then Cox plays for a Fox team and Ionecu who except a couple on ESPN is exclusively on PAC12Network, which plays on Friday night, a traditional NBA night on ESPN. Besides, with a lock on the ACC and SEC I'd guess that ESPN's preseason lists won't be as full of west coasters as these early publications.

Interesting. Who does ESPN push if they ignore Ionescu and Cox? Can't think of a returning player in either the SEC or ACC who seems ready made to be a poster child.


edit--oops, I suppose Chennedy Carter would be one such player from the SEC

 

[TheFarmFan]

I don't think I understand what this debate is about. For the season that just ended, Ionescu won the Wade Trophy for national player of the year, the Wooden Award for most outstanding player in WCBB, and the Nancy Lieberman Award for the nation's top point guard (for the second straight year - she also won as a sophomore).

Yet despite all these accolades, and despite having better stats than CD, folks are trying to argue (1) that Ionescu is actually a forward; and (2) it's unclear who's better between Ionescu and CD. I don't get it. I like CD a lot - she's the latest rising senior in a long line of UConn women who are well spoken, humble, driven, and do everything the right way. CD is also definitely among the top PGs in the country. But it's comical to argue that Ionescu is neither a PG nor the top PG in the country.

It's beginning to make me think folks are just jealous that for once someone else has the fanciest pony in the stable. (To beat the horse metaphor to death a bit more.) Players come, players go, you always have Geno. I suggest taking a deep breath and enjoying the senior season of the most luminescent player in WCBB since Stewwie. And then next season you'll have her again in the form of one Bueckers, P.

ETA: Also, some of the fact assertions here are just bizarre. For example:

I agree with much of what Alydar writes above about Ionescu. . . . She didn't shoot well from the field during her freshman season. Now, her three-point shooting is one of her strengths.

Ionescu shot .420 from long range her freshman year, and .429 this past junior year. So .420 is "didn't shoot well from the field" but .429 is "one of her strengths"??? BTW, CD's 3pt% was .352 last year. So does that make her the stinker of all of WCBB if she's .07 below "didn't shoot well"? Personally, I don't think so, but if that's the metric we're assigning, then CD is even more mediocre than freshman year Sabrina apparently was.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

ETA: Also, some of the fact assertions here are just bizarre. For example:
Ionescu shot .420 from long range her freshman year, and .429 this past junior year. So .420 is "didn't shoot well from the field" but .429 is "one of her strengths"??? BTW, CD's 3pt% was .352 last year. So does that make her the stinker of all of WCBB if she's .07 below "didn't shoot well"? Personally, I don't think so, but if that's the metric we're assigning, then CD is even more mediocre than freshman year Sabrina apparently was.

I should have been more specific. Ionescu shot 39% overall from the field during her freshman season at Oregon. I should have not have transitioned in commenting on her three-point accuracy. Ionescu was more effective from behind the arc as a frosh than she was shooting two-pointers. Ionescu has been a very accurate free throw shooter and three-point shooter throughout her three seasons in Eugene. She struggled inside the arc from the field as a frosh.