Around the Rim: Is DT the GOAT?

[j66kicker]

La China with Devereaux Peters.

Down With Devereaux

Spoiler alert - STOP NOW! (Unless you want me to save you the pain and anguish of listening to La China screech for 20 minutes - then read on below)


FF to about 9:00 to skip the first 9 minutes of painful, ratchety La China nonsense. 9:00-13:00 is mostly about DT becoming all-time leading scorer. 13:00-13:30 DT herself about feeling the love from NBA stars (this interview can be found elsewhere). At about 13:30 Devereaux says DT IS the GOAT. La China initially agrees, but the spews on for 5 more minutes about why she really disagrees.

 

[CocoHusky]

Yes.

 

[meyers7]

Earl Manigault says yep.

 

[bizarro aj]

MAYA! nuff said

 

[Trappa]

I'm such a huge Dee fan. But, I go back and forth.

I usually look at this question in the terms of a WNBA career only,* since it's so difficult to add in international play and it's hard to go cross-generational. In the WNBA, for me, it comes down to Tamika Catchings and Diana Taurasi.

Looking at what Catchings did on both ends of the court -- offensively and defensively. Catch was a defensive beast, the best, most versatile defender I have ever seen. Defense so often gets overlooked, particularly perimeter defense (since it isn't measured in SC Top Ten worthy blocks). For an elite defender to ever be the second most prolific scorer in WNBA history (even if she is moved to third now) is really unbelievable. Plus, Catch did this for an Indiana franchise that was really, to put it bluntly, an Indiana franchise that pretty much was Catchings. There were many years all you had to do to stop Indiana was try and stop Catch. Dee never really had to be that or face that particular pressure. Dee had Penny Taylor her entire professional career until now (who honestly gets very much overlooked in terms of her own skill sets; they had such great chemistry, I'd be curious to see how many of Dee's points came off Penny's assists -- I'm guessing quite a few), plus Cappie Pondexter at the beginning and Griner now.

Dee, on the other hand, is the best offensive player I have ever seen play. In her prime, the things she could do offensively were just so, so cool. Like I said, I am a huge Dee fangirl lol, so I am prone to join the chants of GOAT. But Catchings, she was such a complete player.

*the usual "I've ever seen play" caveats because I'm too young to have seen AMD or Lieberman or Miller, never saw Hortencia, etc.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

La China who?

 

[stwainfan]

I think there are a few players. That can be called the best. Swoopes is one. At her best she was very good. Catchings did it on both ends. Taurasi certainly one of the best scores of all time. Parker one of the most versatile players ever. Maya just a great player. Leslie one of the best to play. Thompson set the standard for post play. Just a few names I mentioned.

 

[HoopsFan21]

No doubt in my mind.

 

[EricLA]

Short answer: Yes

Long answer: Yes she is

Beyond a doubt. Love me some Dee!

 

[MilfordHusky]

If she's not, she's surely on the short list.

Geno thinks so. I trust his judgment.

 

[blackbird]

Yes.

I think when you talk about Catch vs DT, to me..you have the best offensive player vs the best defensive player. IMO, Dee's offense is more impressive than Catch's defense, and Dee's defense is better than Catch's offense. But those two and LJ are my top 3. (LJ comes short of both because of longevity)

 

[tomcat]

I think yes, as of right now, though those who for Catchings certainly have a point. Maybe Maya catches up before she's through. Her career is making a case for it.

 

[bballnut90]

When you look at body of work, she certainly has a solid case for it. The major criticism I have when you look at her W career is that it seems to be her teams are all or nothing....they're either a consensus top team in the league that wins it all, or they're mediocre and underperform.

DT didn't make the playoffs until her 4th year when she had Pondexter and Taylor. The next year they inexplicably don't make the playoffs, and then win it all again the following year.

The next two years (2010 and 2011) Phoenix underperformed and went 15-19 and 19-15 with a loaded roster.

In 2012 DT was out most of the year and the team was heavily suspected of tanking in an effort to get Griner. It worked, and in 2013 they will still mediocre going 19-15.

2014 they put it all together with one of the best seasons in league history, and in 2015 DT was out, but they still finished 20-14 and 2nd in the west. DT comes back in 2016, and the team is inexplicably worse, finishing 16-18 with Griner and DT. This year they're 7-6, which is again underperforming for the level of talent they have. That said, in the moments when the spotlights are shining brightest, DT delivers as well as anyone ever has...and I think that's one of the biggest arguments for her being the GOAT.

Compare that to Maya Moore's W career where she has won 3 titles and played in 5 Finals in 6 years. Her teams have had the best record in the league for 6 of the 7 years, and the 7th year they were 2nd best. She's never had less than 20 wins in a season. DT has only cracked 20 in 3 of her 11 (or 12) seasons.

Maya's teams have always lived up to expectations and again appear to be the favorite for the title.

She has had a very strong supporting cast (arguably as strong or stronger than many of the Phoenix teams), but her level of consistent greatness is matched by no one. If Minnesota goes on to win it all this year, she'll have more titles than DT, twice as many title appearances and have accomplished this while playing in about 1/2 as many seasons. If you compare their college years, you can make an argument for both but I'd have a hard time voting against Maya when she was a 3x POY, 4x 1st team AA, 2 time undefeated champion and owns many statistical records at Connecticut. At worst, you'd have to call it a draw comparing the two. In regards to team USA success, you can argue Taurasi has the edge here, but I believe Moore equals Diana when it's all said and done. Team USA success has less validity than it used to considering how dominant the women's program has become. USA hasn't lost in the Olympics in 25 years....it's like varsity playing JV. The tougher/more career defining games for both have been in the pros and collegiate level.

You can make an argument for both, but at this point I'd put Maya above Taurasi when you look at results and her consistent excellence.

 

[MilfordHusky]

When you look at body of work, she certainly has a solid case for it. The major criticism I have when you look at her W career is that it seems to be her teams are all or nothing....they're either a consensus top team in the league that wins it all, or they're mediocre and underperform.

DT didn't make the playoffs until her 4th year when she had Pondexter and Taylor. The next year they inexplicably don't make the playoffs, and then win it all again the following year.

The next two years (2010 and 2011) Phoenix underperformed and went 15-19 and 19-15 with a loaded roster.

In 2012 DT was out most of the year and the team was heavily suspected of tanking in an effort to get Griner. It worked, and in 2013 they will still mediocre going 19-15.

2014 they put it all together with one of the best seasons in league history, and in 2015 DT was out, but they still finished 20-14 and 2nd in the west. DT comes back in 2016, and the team is inexplicably worse, finishing 16-18 with Griner and DT. This year they're 7-6, which is again underperforming for the level of talent they have. That said, in the moments when the spotlights are shining brightest, DT delivers as well as anyone ever has...and I think that's one of the biggest arguments for her being the GOAT.

Compare that to Maya Moore's W career where she has won 3 titles and played in 5 Finals in 6 years. Her teams have had the best record in the league for 6 of the 7 years, and the 7th year they were 2nd best. She's never had less than 20 wins in a season. DT has only cracked 20 in 3 of her 11 (or 12) seasons.

Maya's teams have always lived up to expectations and again appear to be the favorite for the title.

She has had a very strong supporting cast (arguably as strong or stronger than many of the Phoenix teams), but her level of consistent greatness is matched by no one. If Minnesota goes on to win it all this year, she'll have more titles than DT, twice as many title appearances and have accomplished this while playing in about 1/2 as many seasons. If you compare their college years, you can make an argument for both but I'd have a hard time voting against Maya when she was a 3x POY, 4x 1st team AA, 2 time undefeated champion and owns many statistical records at Connecticut. At worst, you'd have to call it a draw comparing the two. In regards to team USA success, you can argue Taurasi has the edge here, but I believe Moore equals Diana when it's all said and done. Team USA success has less validity than it used to considering how dominant the women's program has become. USA hasn't lost in the Olympics in 25 years....it's like varsity playing JV. The tougher/more career defining games for both have been in the pros and collegiate level.

You can make an argument for both, but at this point I'd put Maya above Taurasi when you look at results and her consistent excellence.

Maya's shot doesn't always work, but she is the model of consistency, positive attitude, and effort. There's a reason why she is the WNBA All-Star leading vote getter. Though Stewie's class and Saniya's class had more than 150 wins, Maya played in all 150 winning games and was instrumental in most of the victories. She never lost in the State of Connecticut as a collegian. If Diana is Babe Ruth, Maya is Lou Gehrig.

 

[DeeHusky]

Yes! I'm biased because I am HUGE Diana Taurasi fan; always have, always will be. There is no other. No one has won as much as she has. She has been THE best player at making mediocre players good players. The 2003 and 2004 Nat'l championship teams were built around her. When finals/championships are on the line, I'm taking her 10/10 times! 3x NCAA Champion, 3 WNBA champion, 4x Olympic Gold Medalist, multiple overseas championships. She took a year off and is still the all-time leading scorer! She is not the all-time leading scorer because of ball hogging, she had to take those shots; she has never been selfish and is one of the best passers in the game. Her humility and drive to continuously get better even though she is the BEST player in the world is amazing!


Note: Tamika Catchings is one of the greats, but the she's not the greatest. The intensity she played with, especially defensively, is unmatched. She made players better as well. She just didn't win as much as DT did. You can't be the GOAT if you didn't win. Geno has said that people talk about Brittney Griner being the best collegiate player, but she only won one championship. That correlates to my point here.

"The main court will always be the one with Diana Taurasi on it."
-Candice Wiggins

 

[RockyMTblue2]

It cracks me up that the Mercury underlined her GOAT status with a petting zoo of goats behind the home basket! Video on same on ESPN. She is the GOAT and that was underscored on this last Olympic team. It was her team and she both commanded it and settled things down when necessary with her patented dagger offense.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Yes.

I don't know why but I read your reply---and started giggling---I assume the length of the answer is in and of itself--the joke.
Un like you--yet--like you.

 

[BroadwayVa]

It cracks me up that the Mercury underlined her GOAT status with a petting zoo of goats behind the home basket! Video on same on ESPN. She is the GOAT and that was underscored on this last Olympic team. It was her team and she both commanded it and settled things down when necessary with her patented dagger offense.

At times while watching the USA Olympic WBB Team---as DT ran around speaking to each player, encouragement, and within the games she was seen chewing on someone' s mistake--did Geno just go along for the ride?? I know the answer--but as I watched-I thought he could have--DT and Sue OWNED that team.

One more time for us who don't have box of wheaties decoder ring---what do the letters G.O.A.T. stand for?? I get the general idea of DT---excuse me my mental state is stuck in 1950---when goat was for some one who took the brunt of blame for someone elses screw up--and that ain't DT.

 

[Wally East]

One more time for us who don't have box of wheaties decoder ring---what do the letters G.O.A.T. stand for??.

Greatest of All Time.

 

[MilfordHusky]

At times while watching the USA Olympic WBB Team---as DT ran around speaking to each player, encouragement, and within the games she was seen chewing on someone' s mistake--did Geno just go along for the ride?? I know the answer--but as I watched-I thought he could have--DT and Sue OWNED that team.

One more time for us who don't have box of wheaties decoder ring---what do the letters G.O.A.T. stand for?? I get the general idea of DT---excuse me my mental state is stuck in 1950---when goat was for some one who took the brunt of blame for someone elses screw up--and that ain't DT.

Greatest Of All Time

 

[BroadwayVa]

Greatest Of All Time

Thanks...

 

[BroadwayVa]

Greatest of All Time.

I appreciate the information--Thanks.

 

[Wally East]

When you look at body of work, she certainly has a solid case for it. The major criticism I have when you look at her W career is that it seems to be her teams are all or nothing....they're either a consensus top team in the league that wins it all, or they're mediocre and underperform.

I'm going stop you right there. Teams are teams. While each member of a team contributes to a team's success or failure, that success or failure can't be owned by one individual.

For example, D played about the same in 2010 and 11 compared to 2009. Took about the same number of shots. Made about the same number of shots. She did rebound a little less and pass a little bit more. But about 1 rebound and 1 assist. Overall, she's pretty consistent across those three years.

So, to lay Phoenix's success or failure on her seems misguided.

 

[Trappa]

Note: Tamika Catchings is one of the greats, but the she's not the greatest. The intensity she played with, especially defensively, is unmatched. She made players better as well. She just didn't win as much as DT did. You can't be the GOAT if you didn't win. Geno has said that people talk about Brittney Griner being the best collegiate player, but she only won one championship. That correlates to my point here.

I don't necessarily agree with this criteria, in the general sense. Catchings could have won more than one title if she had Griner instead of Larkins and Taylor instead of Zellous...

 

[bballnut90]

I'm going stop you right there. Teams are teams. While each member of a team contributes to a team's success or failure, that success or failure can't be owned by one individual.

For example, D played about the same in 2010 and 11 compared to 2009. Took about the same number of shots. Made about the same number of shots. She did rebound a little less and pass a little bit more. But about 1 rebound and 1 assist. Overall, she's pretty consistent across those three years.

So, to lay Phoenix's success or failure on her seems misguided.

Teams are teams but great players elevate their teams. When analyzing if a player is the best of all time, team success almost matters as much as individual success. Ability to lead a team to victory and bringing out the best in others is significant. Taurasi has won 3 in her 12 years, but her teams also have a pattern of inconsistent results under her leadership. Whether it is DT's fault or not, it reflects on her in the GOAT argument. In theory, the best ever should be able to lead their team and find more consistent success. And in Diana's case, this particularly rings true when you look at how much talent she has been surrounded with in her pro career.