Are teams ranked based on reputation or performance?

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Simplistic is putting it nicely. A nonconference schedule consisting of Washington, Cal, Illinois, Wisconsin, Rutgers, Penn State, Virginia, Clemson, TCU, Oklahoma State and Auburn would not be a good schedule at all.

It's just a horribly lazy substitute for a meaningful assessment of quality. But I get it. Out of pure self-interest, the fans of teams belonging to so-called "power" conferences just love to perpetuate the cultish worship of said conferences, as if mere membership conferred some special powers.

No. I assess quality when it matters.

The teams you mentioned went 55 - 26 in their OOC games against non-P5/Big East. They went 3-25 against other P5 / Big East teams (and at least 1 win was between the teams, possibly 2). So they are arguably a bit better than probably the majority of non-P5 / Big East teams and they are the bottom of the P5 barrel.

I don't assess them as quality. Nothing about being in the P5, or the Big East, gives you "special powers". What it does do is give you access to additional revenue than the bulk of non-P5 teams and the option to do something with that money to improve themselves.

Additionally, those teams have the option from year to year of making the NCAA tourney with an at large bid. One and out in many cases, but certainly the possibility is there. I think every one of those teams has danced. For most non-P5 teams, that possibility is not there. Only if they win their conference tourney - not realistic for most of them.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Good idea, poor execution. Said information is not even remotely useful for the stated purposes.

Maryland is not representative of Clemson or Illinois or Washington or Wisconsin. Nor is DePaul representative of High Point or North Carolina A&T.

Next compare the worth of a win over DePaul to a win over Virginia.

Power leagues on average are better than non-power leagues.

The seventh best team in the big 10 is likely better than the third best team in most one bid leagues. It's not meaningless but they are better ways of measuring performance
, I agree.

 

[Plebe]

Power leagues on average are better than non-power leagues.

The seventh best team in the big 10 is likely better than the third best team in most one bid leagues. It's not meaningless but they are better ways of measuring performance
, I agree.

I didn't say it was meaningless in the abstract. What I said was that it is "close to meaningless for the stated purposes," which is conducting a blind resume taste test such as the one concocted by OP — who, in an attempt to question whether teams are "ranked based on reputation", then ironically proceeds to imply teams should be regarded on the basis of their conference's reputation. Quite the deft sleight of hand there.

 

[Rooster C.]

I didn't say it was meaningless in the abstract. What I said was that it is "close to meaningless for the stated purposes," which is conducting a blind resume taste test such as the one concocted by OP — who, in an attempt to question whether teams are "ranked based on reputation", then ironically proceeds to imply teams should be regarded on the basis of their conference's reputation. Quite the deft sleight of hand there.

You just continue to see things that just aren't there my friend. There is no "secret agenda" going on here promoting P5 conferences lol. The more objective I try to be, the more you try to box me in to having some ulterior motive. You can check my posts elsewhere and see that I have both advocated including more non - p5 teams in the NCAA tournament as well as suggesting that certain coaches should be on the "hot seat" for lack of performance over time - all p5 schools, including most like Virginia and Illinois which you mention. I agree Rutgers, Wisconsin, and Washington aren't very good this year either. It is a down year overall for non-p5 schools, which usually see C.Michigan, S.Dakota St., Drake, Buffalo, and many others have better seasons than they are this year.
The whole comparison was meant to be "blind comparison" of similar ranked/unranked teams. I completely agree that playing against a DePaul or Gonzaga is a far better indicator than playing against Virginia or Illinois but I'm not the one doing the ranking and that was my whole point. A close loss playing at Maryland, UConn, Indiana, or Louisville should count more than a big loss at home against a middle-of-the-road P5 team. A win over USF or FGCU should count more than a win over Minnesota or Cal. I was providing the information as it was : 5 P5 teams with identical 7 - 3 records and very similar victories over bottom-of-the-barrel non-p5 schools. The key difference between them was their losses - who they lost to and where. Yet, the pollsters still favored some teams with much worse losses than those they didn't rank. Now that we're well into conference season most of what I was trying to point out has taken care of itself. Kentucky (Team #1) was at that time the highest ranked among the five and has deservedly dropped like a rock. Iowa (Team #2) has deservedly continued to rise. UCF and other non-P5 schools should have been getting more consideration than they were also and that was my point. That the pollsters have a bias in favor of the "usual suspects" and are not being objective until forced to do so when the losses start to pile up.

 

[Alydar]

The cultish obsession with identifying teams as either "p5" or "non-p5" is quite close to meaningless for the stated purposes.

Virginia is a freakin' "power 5" team, for cryin' out loud. Not to mention multiple other p5 teams that are inferior to many — including "unranked" — non-p5 teams.

Exactly. On Wed DePaul was No39 on Massey, a better ranking than eight (8) SEC teams. And Massey factors SOS into its ratings. Massey's flaw is that it makes no adjustments for things like injuries or returning players but if there are enough games left those things will are accounted for by results.

 

[Alydar]

No. I assess quality when it matters.

The teams you mentioned went 55 - 26 in their OOC games against non-P5/Big East. They went 3-25 against other P5 / Big East teams (and at least 1 win was between the teams, possibly 2). So they are arguably a bit better than probably the majority of non-P5 / Big East teams and they are the bottom of the P5 barrel.

I don't assess them as quality. Nothing about being in the P5, or the Big East, gives you "special powers". What it does do is give you access to additional revenue than the bulk of non-P5 teams and the option to do something with that money to improve themselves.

Additionally, those teams have the option from year to year of making the NCAA tourney with an at large bid. One and out in many cases, but certainly the possibility is there. I think every one of those teams has danced. For most non-P5 teams, that possibility is not there. Only if they win their conference tourney - not realistic for most of them.

I love how the BE is berated whenever UConn's schedule is discussed but whenever non-P5 is mentioned it suddenly is included with the P5.

The problem with the bolded part is that there are about 65 P5 teams and nearly 300 non-P5. Those weak P5 teams don't schedule UConn, USF, UCF Gonzaga, DePaul or any other good non-P5 teams.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Those weak P5 teams don't schedule UConn, USF, UCF Gonzaga, DePaul or any other good non-P5 teams.

Have you looked at every team's schedule to confirm this?

Cal played a series w/ UConn recently. Washington has played BYU numerous times, although not this season. That's just 2 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are countless others.

 

[Alydar]

Have you looked at every team's schedule to confirm this?

Cal played a series w/ UConn recently. Washington has played BYU numerous times, although not this season. That's just 2 off the top of my head. I'm sure there are countless others.

Cal is having trouble now but they were playing UConn when they were a much better program. Notice that UConn now plays Oregon and UCLA. Never the bottom feeders except for special reasons like the NCAA's or a holiday tournament. USF beat Stanford this year and Baylor a few years ago but you never see USC inviting them west. Or the weakest B12 teams.

Several years ago the Buffalo coach was asked about why they didn't play a more challenging OOC schedule and she stated that the fault lies in the P-5 conferences. Only the top P5 teams invited her and then only for one game in their house.

The truth is that most of the top 25 are P5 teams but that means that 40 P-5 teams are unranked. As of Wed DePaul was a higher Massey team than 8 SEC teams. But when SCar beats one of those 8 on the road it's described as a "tough SEC road game" in the same breath as "DePaul is a crappy BE team and it's nothing to beat them".

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well, scheduling can be difficult no matter who you are. Barnes has repeatedly said she can't get anybody to come out and play them in Tucson.

Washington St. has been playing Gonzaga annually for forever, and BYU frequently as well. They were dreaful until last year.

 

[Plebe]

Well, scheduling can be difficult no matter who you are. Barnes has repeatedly said she can't get anybody to come out and play them in Tucson.

How is it, then, that Turner-Thorne has scheduled relatively well for many years now? Not fully buying Barnes' story on this one.

 

[visitingcock]

You just continue to see things that just aren't there my friend. There is no "secret agenda" going on here promoting P5 conferences lol. The more objective I try to be, the more you try to box me in to having some ulterior motive. You can check my posts elsewhere and see that I have both advocated including more non - p5 teams in the NCAA tournament as well as suggesting that certain coaches should be on the "hot seat" for lack of performance over time - all p5 schools, including most like Virginia and Illinois which you mention. I agree Rutgers, Wisconsin, and Washington aren't very good this year either. It is a down year overall for non-p5 schools, which usually see C.Michigan, S.Dakota St., Drake, Buffalo, and many others have better seasons than they are this year.
The whole comparison was meant to be "blind comparison" of similar ranked/unranked teams. I completely agree that playing against a DePaul or Gonzaga is a far better indicator than playing against Virginia or Illinois but I'm not the one doing the ranking and that was my whole point. A close loss playing at Maryland, UConn, Indiana, or Louisville should count more than a big loss at home against a middle-of-the-road P5 team. A win over USF or FGCU should count more than a win over Minnesota or Cal. I was providing the information as it was : 5 P5 teams with identical 7 - 3 records and very similar victories over bottom-of-the-barrel non-p5 schools. The key difference between them was their losses - who they lost to and where. Yet, the pollsters still favored some teams with much worse losses than those they didn't rank. Now that we're well into conference season most of what I was trying to point out has taken care of itself. Kentucky (Team #1) was at that time the highest ranked among the five and has deservedly dropped like a rock. Iowa (Team #2) has deservedly continued to rise. UCF and other non-P5 schools should have been getting more consideration than they were also and that was my point. That the pollsters have a bias in favor of the "usual suspects" and are not being objective until forced to do so when the losses start to pile up.

Paragraphs please Mr. Faulkner

 

[Stymie]

My Opinion:
Keep it simple stupid.<—-me
UCONN now 11-4
Wins out regular season 11 games.
Must beat DePaul in 10 days.
22-4 entering Big East Tourney.
Sweeps Big East Title.
Must beat DePaul in the finals.
Enters NCAA as a 25-4 team ‘on the rise’.
Gets #2-#3 seed in a East Bracket.
Meets SC for right to appear in the FINAL FOUR.
Must beat DePaul two more times. And they’re no cream puff.
If they can-count on a matchup with SC in the Elite Eight.
Don’t care about Creme’s Bracketology.
Done care about NCAA preliminary seeding meetings,
UCONN should finish after BE tourney with a 28-4 record and a silver bullet on the rise.
Circle that Elite Eight game on your calendar.
That’s the game.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

How is it, then, that Turner-Thorne has scheduled relatively well for many years now? Not fully buying Barnes' story on this one.

Barnes entered a deal with Turner-Thorne to get teams to come out and play - offering 2 games - Marist was the particular team this year that entered into a deal to play in both Tempe and Tucson.

Before Arizona won the WNIT - lots of good teams wanted to come out and play, but largely, as Adia said, there was no benefit to playing a much better team until we were able to play with them, and they were seeing an easy win. Once we won the WNIT, a lot of the better teams didn't want to play us. Adia discussed at a fan event how much heat she was under to get a better schedule, and she mentioned some of the teams that said "no thanks". It comes down to how much Arizona will pay and one of the teams she specifically mentioned that pays well to attract teams is Oklahoma. She mentioned dollar amounts. It is a whole different world.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Not repeating that. I don't think that the few she mentioned (except Ohio State where she is friends with the coach) are top 25 type teams. Ohio State wanted to play us when Adia became coach and apparently lost interest, although I suspect at some point it could happen because of the relationship. I heard DePaul mentioned at some other point, I think we wanted to play them in Chicago as we had a commitment to play Chicago State which was a waste of money, but the deal fell through.

I see no reason to doubt that she wants to play better teams.

Unfortunately, there are not a lot of games between better teams, except at tournaments and special games. In this, UConn is the exception. A lot of coaches say "play anyone" but they really mean "play anyone that is an advantage for me". I'm not even arguing that Adia doesn't fall in that category, which doesn't negate the fact that she is having trouble getting the games she wants.

 

[visitingcock]

My Opinion:
Keep it simple stupid.<—-me
UCONN now 11-4
Wins out regular season 11 games.
Must beat DePaul in 10 days.
22-4 entering Big East Tourney.
Sweeps Big East Title.
Must beat DePaul in the finals.
Enters NCAA as a 25-4 team ‘on the rise’.
Gets #2-#3 seed in a East Bracket.
Meets SC for right to appear in the FINAL FOUR.
Must beat DePaul two more times. And they’re no cream puff.
If they can-count on a matchup with SC in the Elite Eight.
Don’t care about Creme’s Bracketology.
Done care about NCAA preliminary seeding meetings,
UCONN should finish after BE tourney with a 28-4 record and a silver bullet on the rise.
Circle that Elite Eight game on your calendar.
That’s the game.

SCar will probably play in Greensboro regional.

UConn will probably be in the Bridgeport Regional.

Don't see the possibility of a rematch until the final four.