An embarrassment of riches

[CocoHusky]

Absolutely Pheesa and KLS performed well enough to win a NC. Basketball is not an individual game. Their EFG% combined vs Miss State was 52.38%. That's good enough.

The players did not think so.

https://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-womens-basketball/hc-jacobs-column-uconn-women-geno-lose-0401-20170401-story.html.

 

[hoophuskee]

Or maybe if Azura Stevens decided to stay her last year then the wheels may have stopped spinning?

And for those of us that thought Meg Walker was a very, very, very good player- how do we think UCONN would look in comparison to all other teams this year if she decided to stay?

 

[Happydad745]

Crystal Dangerfield wasn't a #1 recruit, Katie Lou Samuelson was.

And CD was the first starting Point Guard at UConn not to make All American or win a National Championship in the last 20 years.

 

[JRRRJ]

And CD was the first starting Point Guard at UConn not to make All American or win a National Championship in the last 20 years.

I'd think that winning WNBA ROY took a lot of the sting out of that snark...

 

[hoopsfan22]

Or maybe if Azura Stevens decided to stay her last year then the wheels may have stopped spinning?

And for those of us that thought Meg Walker was a very, very, very good player- how do we think UCONN would look in comparison to all other teams this year if she decided to stay?

If Stevens stayed you would have seniors KLS, Collier, Stevens to go along with a junior Crystal, and sophomore Megan. That team might have been enough to bring home a title in 2019. If today's lineup was Paige, CW, Evina, Megan, and ONO with Anna, Edwards, Nika, Aubrey, and Mir coming off the bench I'd really like our chances next month.

 

[Coach]

BostonCanuck is absolutely right. Lou and her classmates couldn't get it done when it mattered most. Lou and Napheesa won a national championship as freshmen riding Stewie's immense coattails. But once Stewie left, the NCAA championship well went dry.

Unless your criteria for "getting it done," Centerstream, is winning the AAC title, in which case Lou and Co. were world beaters. She, Napheesa and Crystal were outstanding in their own unique ways, but when it came time to win the biggest games, they came up short, as BostonCanuck states.

Auriemma once said “I do think our fan base has become spoiled. I do think they’ve lost sense of reality. Hopefully this year they realize this is really hard.”

“Getting to the national semifinals is hard. Advancing will be even harder.”

Auriemma doesn’t want anyone, including the program’s rabid fanbase, to lose perspective of the Huskies’ accomplishments.

“The fact that we’re going to 12 straight Final Fours, that shouldn’t mean that it’s easy or we should expect to be there every single year by birthright,”

 

[hoophuskee]

You're the one who brought up the HOF and HOH. I just gave you my thoughts on those.

And I'm not "holding anything against" anybody. Just saying they either got it done or they didn't.

I mean, who cares if Yaz & Ted put up a bunch of stats for decades? In the end they never won anything.

But I asked you about HOF and HOH. I brought it up because I wanted your thoughts. You did say you'd put a top 5 player on the wall. So if you are saying it don't mean a thing if you don't get a ring-- then why would you bother putting up a player on the HOH wall if they didn't win it all?

 

[CocoHusky]

Auriemma once said “I do think our fan base has become spoiled. I do think they’ve lost sense of reality. Hopefully this year they realize this is really hard.”

“Getting to the national semifinals is hard. Advancing will be even harder.”

Auriemma doesn’t want anyone, including the program’s rabid fanbase, to lose perspective of the Huskies’ accomplishments.

“The fact that we’re going to 12 straight Final Fours, that shouldn’t mean that it’s easy or we should expect to be there every single year by birthright,”

Of course it's hard. I don't think it's "birthright" that is creating these expectations .What is creating & sustaining the expectations is a proven formula. That formula includes the best coaching staff in the world and consistently getting the highest rated HS recruits.

 

[j66kicker]

But I asked you about HOF and HOH. I brought it up because I wanted your thoughts. You did say you'd put a top 5 player on the wall. So if you are saying it don't mean a thing if you don't get a ring-- then why would you bother putting up a player on the HOH wall if they didn't win it all?

I never equated HOF & HOH with winning it all? 2 different things. Otherwise we wouldn't need a wall. If the wall (or hall) was everybody who had a ring, then the wall would be littered with a whole bunch of bench players off championship teams. Agree some players who didn't win it all still belong there, but the primary purpose of the wall is to narrow it down to just the great players - not the whole universe of "championship" players.

I also DID intend to convey that I think the HOF and HOH are being diluted by having lower standards than I would have. But that's just me.

 

[Jingo]

Some years, the #1 recruit is a "generational" talent (not really the right word, but the one that is commonly used). Stewie, Maya, Aja Wilson, Candace Parker, Britany Griner, Elena Delle Donne.... Coaching matters, of course, but it's hard to see how the aforementioned wouldn't have been superstars for most coaches.

Other years, the #1 recruit is merely a very, very good player. Katie Lou, Kalena Mosqueda Lewis. And sometimes, unfortunately, just a very good player. Megan, CW. Coaching helps all of them improve, but cannot make them superstars.

Just sayin'

What about Dungee [AK] and Correa [St johns] .. ?? where were they ranked in HS?

 

[CocoHusky]

It is just so depressing to keep losing in the final four - what a waste of all that talent to fail so consistently!
It is so depressing 12 FF in a row and only 6 titles.

The reality is that it is a team game and even multiple highly ranked HS players do not guarantee anything, and the HS ranking is a pretty feeble attempt to assess talent - a Candice Parker or Breanna Stewart or Brittany Griner separate from their peers, but most of the time it is a crap shoot and players like DT while obviously talented do not. Sue Bird the best PG ever in WBB was not even the best PG recruited in her class at Uconn and was I think ranked lower than three (or four?)of the other TASSK force class.

I would say that Walker Williams and Samuelson were three of those crap shoot #1s. Very good players but with contemporaries who could easily have been rated higher than them. And they were (are) not chopped liver as college players either. And if you look at those classes 2015, 2017, 2018 it is hard to pick out anyone in the top of those classes who actually separated themselves from their mates as college players.

And just to expand on that point:
ESPN Top 30 Players that help win a National Championship or be named AA.
2015: KLS, Asia Durr, Jessica Shepard, Naphessa Collier, Arike Ogunbowale, Kalani Brown, Marina Mabrey,
2017: Megan Walker, Chennedy Carter, Dana Evans, NaLyssa Smith
2018: None so far.

 

[CocoHusky]

What about Dungee [AK] and Correa [St johns] .. ?? where were they ranked in HS?

Dungee was 61st in 2016 class, Correa was as high as 24 and took a tumble down to 83 for her final ranking.
Why is that applicable to this discussion?

 

[Jingo]

Dungee was 61st in 2016 class, Correa was as high as 24 and took a tumble down to 83 for her final ranking.
Why is that applicable to this discussion?

Thanks! ... just showing the fallibility and relative unpredictability of the high school rankings, a topic which, IMO, we spend waaay too much time discussing on the BY, eh?
Totally germane to this discussion.

 

[CocoHusky]

Thanks! ... just showing the fallibility and relative unpredictability of the high school rankings, a topic which, IMO, we spend waaay too much time discussing on the BY, eh?
Totally germane to this discussion.

I happen to agree with you-just which you would have stated this premise originally.

 

[BBallF]

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt - "Citizenship in a Republic"

You quote Teddy Roosevelt and you got me.

 

[hoophuskee]

I never equated HOF & HOH with winning it all? 2 different things. Otherwise we wouldn't need a wall. If the wall (or hall) was everybody who had a ring, then the wall would be littered with a whole bunch of bench players off championship teams. Agree some players who didn't win it all still belong there, but the primary purpose of the wall is to narrow it down to just the great players - not the whole universe of "championship" players.

I also did intend to convey that I think the HOF and HOH are being diluted by having lower standards than I would have. But that's just me.

I know you didn't equate it. That's the disagreement in part I have with your pov. You're broadly making a sweeping comment of "if you don't win a ring then it don't mean a thing" with little consideration of for example HOH. If it only matters a ring then then why would you consider any player that hasn't won to be on the wall?

Well I have to go. I'd like to PM you if that is okay later?

I don't understand posters like you who think the way you do-- and I think we can go back and forth without insults. I just don't think on here the mods and many would appreciate our going back-and-forth on these public threads.

To be clear I wasn't suggesting you or me have said everyone that wins a ring should be on it. I'm just interested to know why you would think ANY player that hasn't won should be on it - if you are under the belief that if you don't win a ring then it don't mean a thing. Because by you putting a player on the wall who hasn't won it all- you are assigning meaning to that player, correct?? And you are proving an exception to your initial point of "if you don't win a ring it don't mean a thing, correct?"

 

[BostonCanuck]

Auriemma once said “I do think our fan base has become spoiled. I do think they’ve lost sense of reality. Hopefully this year they realize this is really hard.”

“Getting to the national semifinals is hard. Advancing will be even harder.”

Auriemma doesn’t want anyone, including the program’s rabid fanbase, to lose perspective of the Huskies’ accomplishments.

“The fact that we’re going to 12 straight Final Fours, that shouldn’t mean that it’s easy or we should expect to be there every single year by birthright,”

Look, I wouldn't mind if Geno had made these points once or twice to help his players feel better after a tough loss. But he's repeated it over and over in recent years, to the point where it has become a defining mantra of the program. And frankly, it's toxic.

This is not how a head coach hungry to win his 12th should speak. If you keep telling your team how hard it is to win a national championship, is it any wonder they have trouble closing out games at the Final Four? You'd think they might actually have come to believe him.

I know I'm being tough here, but the he sooner Geno permanently retires this kind of messaging, the better. Contrast it with Pat Summit's rousing half-time locker room speech in front of Candace Parker at the 2007 Final Four semi-final. Or with Geno himself early in the 1994/5 season when he said, "We want to win a national championship. Not everybody has the same opportunity. I don't know if we're going to have the opportunity, but right now that's what want to do". Night and day.

Fortunately, there was some evidence last season after that third loss that Geno had perhaps finally had enough, and had decided to make some adjustments to team culture from the top down. And then COVID...

 

[dogged1]

Look, I wouldn't mind if Geno had made these points once or twice to help his players feel better after a tough loss. But he's repeated it over and over in recent years, to the point where it has become a defining mantra of the program. And frankly, it's toxic.

This is not how a head coach hungry to win his 12th should speak. If you keep telling your team how hard it is to win a national championship, is it any wonder they have trouble closing out games at the Final Four? You'd think they might actually have come to believe him.

I know I'm being tough here, but the he sooner Geno permanently retires this kind of messaging, the better. Contrast it with Pat Summit's rousing half-time locker room speech in front of Candace Parker at the 2007 Final Four semi-final. Or with Geno himself early in the 1994/5 season when he said, "We want to win a national championship. Not everybody has the same opportunity. I don't know if we're going to have the opportunity, but right now that's what want to do". Night and day.

Fortunately, there was some evidence last season after that third loss that Geno had perhaps finally had enough, and had decided to make some adjustments to team culture from the top down. And then COVID...

No one's perfect.
Not even Geno (as a coach).
Maybe, that's why he's got CD by his side.
But really, "toxic"?
I'll leave the sarcastic replies to others and just SMH.

 

[BostonCanuck]

No one's perfect.
Not even Geno (as a coach).
Maybe, that's why he's got CD by his side.
But really, "toxic"?
I'll leave the sarcastic replies to others and just SMH.

Fair enough, not the best word choice to end that sentence. Substituting something such as "counterproductive" would be more appropriate. I do hope it didn't distract too much from the idea I was trying to convey, namely that these talking points had unfortunately become something of a hobby horse for Geno in recent years, to negative unintended consequences.

 

[dogged1]

Thanks for the reasoned response, and fair enough back to you.
I do believe that Geno's message(s) to the team are different than his message(s) to the fan base. And that he makes that difference abundantly clear to them at the team practices and meetings.
Like all really good communicators he identifies his audience and tailors his message to that audience.
I think the message your quoting is aimed squarely at the fan base.
Deservedly so.

 

[Cuango]

OK! I've read about all thee posts and am really ripping at the garbage positions taken. Talking about people who can't get it done and naming great player after great player and denigrating their careers as if they were failures. It's just stinking obvious what a bunch of spoiled supposed fans some of you all are. If you want to believe @BostonCanuck that "In the biggest of big games, Lou and her compadres from that recent era unfortunately just couldn't get it done." Remember she's the kid who played 20 minutes of basketball with a broken foot and then cried when she couldn't finish the game. She's the kid who was so sick she had to run off the court and throw up in a bucket and run back on court. The kid has fire in her belly like few have. They won and they won and they won. Do you know how hard it is to win 20 or 30 games in a row. They got beat by two wild shots in two separate games and you make their whole career out to be losers. It disgusting! Kids pour so much in their careers so that you can walk around with your chest puffed out and talk about being a UConn women's basketball fan. I wouldn't be surprised if you are one of those fans who let an alligator mouth overload your hummingbird butt by bragging before the game to all your friends. They lost and now because you didn't understand how hard it is to win, you had to face all your work buddies as a blowhard. You denigrate 30 kids without caring. You also denigrate the kids who stepped up to win. Go tell Vivans and William you know they won that night because Lou didn't step up. Last word. Show me your trophy case! If you have 1/10th of the hardware of Lou and Pheesa I'll publish an apology.

Well said!

 

[Cuango]

I didn't see anything wild about either shot. Both shooters deserve the same credit given to the home team, imo.

They weren’t wild in the sense that the player just threw up a shot without aiming, rather if you look at the shooter’s percentage and the greatness of the moment, those shots are missed more than they are made. I don’t think the OP meant that those shots were simply a lucky shot without intent, just that if the same player under the same circumstances and pressure were to shoot that same shot over and over, they would miss more often than not. That is what I believe Geno meant after the Mississippi State game when he said “it was our turn”. Those may not have been his exact words but essentially he was saying that after all those years of dominance and perfect seasons etc, the basketball gods decided it was time for UConn to see how the other side felt. I remember really admiring his gracious (and generous) post game comments after that heartbreaking loss. I think that team was missing something but it certainly wasn’t that Lou, Napheesa, or Nurse were lacking in some way.

 

[darkstar1]

They weren’t wild in the sense that the player just threw up a shot without aiming, rather if you look at the shooter’s percentage and the greatness of the moment, those shots are missed more than they are made. I don’t think the OP meant that those shots were simply a lucky shot without intent, just that if the same player under the same circumstances and pressure were to shoot that same shot over and over, they would miss more often than not. That is what I believe Geno meant after the Mississippi State game when he said “it was our turn”. Those may not have been his exact words but essentially he was saying that after all those years of dominance and perfect seasons etc, the basketball gods decided it was time for UConn to see how the other side felt. I remember really admiring his gracious (and generous) post game comments after that heartbreaking loss. I think that team was missing something but it certainly wasn’t that Lou, Napheesa, or Nurse were lacking in some way.

I don’t see how anyone can have a negative word against Pheesa. Always on, always giving her all but calm and collected. As a college player she was much more than her stats, which were awesome. No one can have their best game every game. I’ve toyed with many “top 5” UCCON positional lineups and have a hard time not including her as the 4, unless you move Stewie, even though 3 out of 4 NCs eluded Pheesa.

 

[j66kicker]

I know you didn't equate it. That's the disagreement in part I have with your pov. You're broadly making a sweeping comment of "if you don't win a ring then it don't mean a thing" with little consideration of for example HOH. If it only matters a ring then then why would you consider any player that hasn't won to be on the wall?

Well I have to go. I'd like to PM you if that is okay later?

I don't understand posters like you who think the way you do-- and I think we can go back and forth without insults. I just don't think on here the mods and many would appreciate our going back-and-forth on these public threads.

To be clear I wasn't suggesting you or me have said everyone that wins a ring should be on it. I'm just interested to know why you would think ANY player that hasn't won should be on it - if you are under the belief that if you don't win a ring then it don't mean a thing. Because by you putting a player on the wall who hasn't won it all- you are assigning meaning to that player, correct?? And you are proving an exception to your initial point of "if you don't win a ring it don't mean a thing, correct?"

You can PM me if you want, but you're way overthinking my 2 movie quotes ("Show me the money" and "It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring."). These quotes DO portray my real feelings, however to take them 100% literally (the one quote is Marilyn Monroe's "wedding ring" version of Duke Ellington's, "It Don't Mean a Thing if You Ain't Got That Swing"), and then dissect what that would mean, and then attribute that literal meaning to me is just an exercise in arguing for the sake of.

So I'm done too - peace.

 

[hoophuskee]

Look, I wouldn't mind if Geno had made these points once or twice to help his players feel better after a tough loss. But he's repeated it over and over in recent years, to the point where it has become a defining mantra of the program. And frankly, it's toxic.

This is not how a head coach hungry to win his 12th should speak. If you keep telling your team how hard it is to win a national championship, is it any wonder they have trouble closing out games at the Final Four? You'd think they might actually have come to believe him.

I know I'm being tough here, but the he sooner Geno permanently retires this kind of messaging, the better. Contrast it with Pat Summit's rousing half-time locker room speech in front of Candace Parker at the 2007 Final Four semi-final. Or with Geno himself early in the 1994/5 season when he said, "We want to win a national championship. Not everybody has the same opportunity. I don't know if we're going to have the opportunity, but right now that's what want to do". Night and day.

Fortunately, there was some evidence last season after that third loss that Geno had perhaps finally had enough, and had decided to make some adjustments to team culture from the top down. And then COVID...

IMO you're misreading everything. I know you wouldn't mind-- but that that's the point- you're misreading what's happening. So it doesn't matter how you wouldn't mind.

"In recent years" as you put it- those accomplishments are a career for nearly every coach. In recent years he's been to FF's. You're inability to appreciate a FF team shouldn't be a determining factor of the overall success of the program.

As far back as 02-03 Geno said during a timeout in the Tenn game in Hartford that maybe his team was too young to win a game like that.

In 96-97 on the men's side - Rip Hamilton and Kevin Freeman's 1st year UCONN was 7-9 in games decided by 10 points or less. Calhoun instead of ripping his team would say in post-games and/or pre-games his team was too young.

The point is-- the coaches even at their early stages had a sense of reality. Some fans lose that sense of reality. The reality is that you can't win every year. Every team in this history of basketball has never won it every year. But now there are some fans who think UCONN should? Coaches understand it but sometimes fans lose themselves in fantasy.