Am I wrong in wondering why Griner has not dominated in the WNBA?

[UcMiami]

I disagree a bit with the OP, not to say that Griner has dominated through her pro career, but that domination as a pro is not an easy proposition for any single player. Sylvia Fowles is probably the most dominant center of the last 15 years and she has only had a few really stunning seasons, the same as Griner.

1. Phoenix has had a lot of turn-over including years of DT injury/sitting out. DT sat out the season after they had completely dominated the WNBA and won the championship which caused a significant regression in the team results, for example.

2. Griner has led the league in blocks every year as a pro, twice defensive player of the year and has been first or second team All Defensive Team in all but 1 season (3 each), led the league in scoring twice, 6 time all star, 2 time PEAK performer (scoring assists rebounds.) A resume that stands against any center over the last 7 years and really any player.

3. The WNBA like any pro league is much harder to dominate than college because the pool has shrunk down to a universe of supremely talented players and the difference between the best and worst is significantly reduced. You are no longer competing with a 4 year window of talent either, as the best pros have 10-15+ years to continue their careers so a great college player as a pro is competing with and against only great college and foreign players who have more experience at the beginning of her career, and greater youth and generally greater athleticism as their careers continue. On a very simple level, in any given year in the WNBA (or any pro league) there are 15+/- NCAA players of the year competing and 100+/- NCAA first team All Americans.

4. The WNBA is a team game more so than the NBA just as with WCBB vs. MCBB - and centers in basketball are more dependent on teammates than any other position because they are not expected nor do they initiate offense, and they are also the only players that consistently are the focus of double teams. Guards and forwards can and do dominate the ball, centers rely on being passed the ball in the offense.

5. Shot blockers consistently put themselves in poor position for rebounding and Griner is the most prolific shot blocker in the WNBA. People have always complained (including in her college career) that Griners rebounding numbers were not 'dominant', but between her blocks and challenges of shooters, she and her coaches have placed her out of position for rebounds. This is not surprising. Any team with a great shot blocker has to depend on the rest of the team to control the defensive boards.

No question in my mind that Griner could have been coached to expand her game more in college and that would have helped her pro career. But she is a great players and has had a great pro career so far and is one of the best players in the WNBA and arguably the best center in the game. as a comparison, in terms of college dominant players, C. Paris was a more dominant college center than Griner, and has struggled to have any pro career. Griner has been as advertised, but domination as a pro just isn't in the cards. DT is probably the best ever WNBA player to date, but has she dominated? Maya probably had a chance but her career is on hold. EDD, Aja, Sue, etc. all great but 'dominant'?

 

[bballnut90]

Wonder if Griner saw this or someone mentioned it to her...she's absolutely dominating today.

 

[bballnut90]

I disagree a bit with the OP, not to say that Griner has dominated through her pro career, but that domination as a pro is not an easy proposition for any single player. Sylvia Fowles is probably the most dominant center of the last 15 years and she has only had a few really stunning seasons, the same as Griner.

1. Phoenix has had a lot of turn-over including years of DT injury/sitting out. DT sat out the season after they had completely dominated the WNBA and won the championship which caused a significant regression in the team results, for example.

Most teams have turnover, and much greater turnover than Phoenix has. She's had the same coach for 7 years, DT has been there healthy 5 of the 7 years, she had Bonner all but 1 year too. After the brilliant 2014 season, DT/Taylor sat out and Phoenix was still quite good, going 20-14 and finishing 2nd in the west. It was when DT came back from 2016-2018 where Phoenix was surprisingly underwhelming, going 16-18, 18-16, and 20-14 over the next 3 seasons with both of them being fully healthy and Bonner there for 2 of the years. 4 straight years with Dupree. Same coach, same core, same system.

2. Griner has led the league in blocks every year as a pro, twice defensive player of the year and has been first or second team All Defensive Team in all but 1 season (3 each), led the league in scoring twice, 6 time all star, 2 time PEAK performer (scoring assists rebounds.) A resume that stands against any center over the last 7 years and really any player.

She has a great resume, but it hasn't translated to ample team success aside from the 2014 season. You

3. The WNBA like any pro league is much harder to dominate than college because the pool has shrunk down to a universe of supremely talented players and the difference between the best and worst is significantly reduced. You are no longer competing with a 4 year window of talent either, as the best pros have 10-15+ years to continue their careers so a great college player as a pro is competing with and against only great college and foreign players who have more experience at the beginning of her career, and greater youth and generally greater athleticism as their careers continue. On a very simple level, in any given year in the WNBA (or any pro league) there are 15+/- NCAA players of the year competing and 100+/- NCAA first team All Americans.

The talent pool is a lot better but Griner is still by far the tallest/longest player in the league. Watching her today she is absolutely unstoppable 1 on 1. She's more nimble than almost any other 6-5/6-6 player in the league, and she's a full 3 inches taller than those players with great touch inside.

4. The WNBA is a team game more so than the NBA just as with WCBB vs. MCBB - and centers in basketball are more dependent on teammates than any other position because they are not expected nor do they initiate offense, and they are also the only players that consistently are the focus of double teams. Guards and forwards can and do dominate the ball, centers rely on being passed the ball in the offense.

True, but good centers play with determination, post hard every play. She's played her entire career with a great passer in Taurasi

5. Shot blockers consistently put themselves in poor position for rebounding and Griner is the most prolific shot blocker in the WNBA. People have always complained (including in her college career) that Griners rebounding numbers were not 'dominant', but between her blocks and challenges of shooters, she and her coaches have placed her out of position for rebounds. This is not surprising. Any team with a great shot blocker has to depend on the rest of the team to control the defensive boards.

True, but she just isn't a good rebounder. Never has been, likely never will be. She isn't blocking shots every possession and doesn't have good rebounding fundamentals.

as a comparison, in terms of college dominant players, C. Paris was a more dominant college center than Griner, and has struggled to have any pro career. Griner has been as advertised, but domination as a pro just isn't in the cards. DT is probably the best ever WNBA player to date, but has she dominated? Maya probably had a chance but her career is on hold. EDD, Aja, Sue, etc. all great but 'dominant'?

Paris was never close to dominating like Griner did unless you solely look at stats. Griner straight up shut down opposing offenses unlike anyone else in the country. Paris was undersized, too heavy and never had the frame or skills that would transition well to the pros. Opposing bigs who were skilled consistently had field days against Oklahoma and they only made it past the Sweet 16 once in her career. There's a reason she dropped to 7th in the draft despite being a 4x All American.

Griner physically is most unique player the league has ever seen. Size wise, she's like a modern day Wilt Chamberlain. At the end of the day winning and performing on the biggest stage is what determines a lot of a player's legacy. One final appearance in 7 years while playing along side DT for 5 of those years is underwhelming. Of the others mentioned, EDD has played in 3 finals and won 1 in the same time frame as BG, DT/Bird have won 3 each, Wilson is just in her 2nd year, Maya played in 6 finals over 8 years, etc.

 

[PacoBlaze]

I just gotta ask before I go...

What does this thread have to do with UConn WBB??????

Can it be moved to the General WBB sub forum please (because even after I Ignore this thread, it will show up on the main forum if I am not logged in)?????

 

[Centerstream]

I just gotta ask before I go...

What does this thread have to do with UConn WBB??????

Can it be moved to the General WBB sub forum please (because even after I Ignore this thread, it will show up on the main forum if I am not logged in)?????

I second the motion to move this...

 

[Waquoit]

Griner has had to put up with more crap in her career than most. That can keep you from reaching your best.

 

[Dokey]

Take three inches away from Griner and she would be a below average post player. Maybe, we van't teally know. But she is what she is. A tall tree. Today she made that height pay off.

 

[Cuango]

I disagree a bit with the OP, not to say that Griner has dominated through her pro career, but that domination as a pro is not an easy proposition for any single player. Sylvia Fowles is probably the most dominant center of the last 15 years and she has only had a few really stunning seasons, the same as Griner.

1. Phoenix has had a lot of turn-over including years of DT injury/sitting out. DT sat out the season after they had completely dominated the WNBA and won the championship which caused a significant regression in the team results, for example.

2. Griner has led the league in blocks every year as a pro, twice defensive player of the year and has been first or second team All Defensive Team in all but 1 season (3 each), led the league in scoring twice, 6 time all star, 2 time PEAK performer (scoring assists rebounds.) A resume that stands against any center over the last 7 years and really any player.

3. The WNBA like any pro league is much harder to dominate than college because the pool has shrunk down to a universe of supremely talented players and the difference between the best and worst is significantly reduced. You are no longer competing with a 4 year window of talent either, as the best pros have 10-15+ years to continue their careers so a great college player as a pro is competing with and against only great college and foreign players who have more experience at the beginning of her career, and greater youth and generally greater athleticism as their careers continue. On a very simple level, in any given year in the WNBA (or any pro league) there are 15+/- NCAA players of the year competing and 100+/- NCAA first team All Americans.

4. The WNBA is a team game more so than the NBA just as with WCBB vs. MCBB - and centers in basketball are more dependent on teammates than any other position because they are not expected nor do they initiate offense, and they are also the only players that consistently are the focus of double teams. Guards and forwards can and do dominate the ball, centers rely on being passed the ball in the offense.

5. Shot blockers consistently put themselves in poor position for rebounding and Griner is the most prolific shot blocker in the WNBA. People have always complained (including in her college career) that Griners rebounding numbers were not 'dominant', but between her blocks and challenges of shooters, she and her coaches have placed her out of position for rebounds. This is not surprising. Any team with a great shot blocker has to depend on the rest of the team to control the defensive boards.

No question in my mind that Griner could have been coached to expand her game more in college and that would have helped her pro career. But she is a great players and has had a great pro career so far and is one of the best players in the WNBA and arguably the best center in the game. as a comparison, in terms of college dominant players, C. Paris was a more dominant college center than Griner, and has struggled to have any pro career. Griner has been as advertised, but domination as a pro just isn't in the cards. DT is probably the best ever WNBA player to date, but has she dominated? Maya probably had a chance but her career is on hold. EDD, Aja, Sue, etc. all great but 'dominant'?

Obviously, each to his/her own, but I’m just not feeling it. For me, I don’t even think of her as a “great” player! She is very good but imo has simply underachieved in the pro game. With her physical advantages, again imo, she could/should have a much better resume than she does. It’s not as if she didn’t play on a good team either! Having said that, who knows what other factors have shaped her career. Again, I am speaking to her physical gifts and that is only part of the equation. Competitiveness, desire, work ethic, personal happiness, contentment with your life/situation, team dynamics, love of the game, coaching and willingness/ability/desire to learn and many other factors are also part of what makes a player great. When I watch her I rarely see someone who is going all out. Perhaps that is wrong/unfair but nevertheless, that is what I see.