All time UConn WBB starting 5 as of today...
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A good year but not spectacular one. As stated before anyone can see in Final Four Stanford was deliberately giving MoJeff wide open shots. This sort of highlights her soph year as her being the 5th leading scorer. Unlike Bird who was 3rd in overall in team scoring 2nd in assists while Mofjeff 1st in assists but 5th in scoring. On Offense she didn't have to do much but pass the ball and hit an occasional shot.
While Sue Bird Final Four game was an example of a signature game. With 7 minutes left (and even before that she had 19 points. When she got her 19th pt it was one-third of team's points in a tight game in the 2nd half.) the game was still close And in her 1st matchup vs Tenn she was also a beast and scored 22 or 23 points. And with her 22nd point they were about one-third too in a tight game. These are signature games.
You got any signature games for MoJeff her soph year? Maybe the Baylor game that Simms got shut down? But with that said - do we recall who was on that team? Dolson, Stewart and Stokes. What was Simms going to get going to the basket on the inside?
I just can't recall Moriah putting her team on her back her soph year. She was a contributor. I can see the Moriah point but Bird in some big games was doing some heavy lifting I can't recall Moriah doing.
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Do we need to focus exclusively on MoJeff's sophomore year? Here's some highlights from the game against SC that year. This was a blowout against the #1 ranked team and it was a total team effort. But when I look at what MoJeff did on both ends of the floor, face guarding Tiffany Mitchell on defense and exposing Bianca Cuevas who was touted as the quickest guard in D1 by many "experts," I see one of the all time greats Pay special attention to these moments:
1:24
3:26
4:29
5:02
5:25
Moriah was like a shot across the bow for SC and opened up the court in so doing.
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Yes. The entire point of our conversation was soph year. I had made a point that Bird was spectacular 3 years while MoJeff wasn't until her jr year. You're giving me "jr year Moriah," right? I had said they were right there - near even so yeah she was spectacular her jr and sr years which is why I have Bird and her so close.
And it's why I disagreed several years ago with Meg and Kara.
MilfordHusky
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Her last 2 years, Mo was arguably the best player in the nation not named Stewart.
Kaleena's limited success at the pro level causes people to diminish her college career, when, in fact, her college career was one of the best ever. She was arguably the key to the entire UConn offense. K was an ugly elbow injury away from being a 3x all-American. She set the career record for 3-pointers made, while shooting a high percentage. She led the team in scoring as a freshman (over Tiffany) and sophomore (over Stewie). She was one box-out against ND from possibly being the first player to win 4 NCAA championships. Kaleena scored in double-figures in all 23 career NCAA tourney games. No one has surpassed that.
Kaleena's limited success at the pro level causes people to diminish her college career, when, in fact, her college career was one of the best ever. She was arguably the key to the entire UConn offense. K was an ugly elbow injury away from being a 3x all-American. She set the career record for 3-pointers made, while shooting a high percentage. She led the team in scoring as a freshman (over Tiffany) and sophomore (over Stewie). She was one box-out against ND from possibly being the first player to win 4 NCAA championships. Kaleena scored in double-figures in all 23 career NCAA tourney games. No one has surpassed that.
Yes, a lot of fun. Someone with way too much time on their hands should analyze these posts and come up with a consensus starting 5, bench players, etc.
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That first 5 played in Olympics as a team for quite a few minutes. No other schools can say that.
meyers7
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Did you not read the stats I posted?? We were talking about the year (not spectacular/signature games). And Jefferson's year was slightly better than Bird's "spectacular" year.
Bird shot 3pts better, scored 5 more points (1 ppg more), and a better FT % (didn't score more, just a better %). Other than that, Jefferson was better in every other category.
I'll agree Bird had a really good year (wouldn't say spectacular, I'd leave that for AA or NPOY years), but so did Jefferson. Actually slightly better.
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I think we might want to have two different, one based on college performance and one one post college. Maya, Stewie, and Diana are on both. Seems like the argument about Sue versus MoJeff, in part depends on whether you are focused on the college performance. Same with Tina and Pheese
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An overwhelmingly talented group of players we have had the pleasure to watch over the years. Seems like once you get past the best five, every other candidate, though worthy, has another player (or more) that has a claim. Truly remarkable.
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No what I was talking about even with my 1st post to you why I felt I gave the slight edge to Bird - I made the follwoing comment in bold below.
"So, one year she is a bench player worse than 5/6 combined with her soph year she is 5th best player and both years not A/A -- vs Bird being spectucular for 3 years."
1-- I am putting Bird, being the 3rd highest scorer on the 99-00 team, at a much higher value that you appear to be doing because she was 3rd leading scorer vs 5th leading scorer. The fact that their shooting stats are near even points more to Bird than MoJeff because more attention is being focused toward Bird. .
2--- So, the fact that I'm saying Bird was more of an offensive threat, then ofc I am going to use "Signature/spectacular" games. That's the entire reason why Bird was great while MoJeff wasn't imo.
3-- You can listen to those 2 games I highlighted - and you can hear for example Pat Summit calling out her team "to Defend Bird." Yet as I have previously stated on the flipside I can see another super coach in Tara who basically told her team to leave MoJeff open.
4-- If you want to say overall you give Mo Jeff the advantage I had said okay because I'm with you they are close. But you are pointing out through implication that Bird wasn't an a/a and that is part of the reason why her season wasn’t spectacular then I don't agree (otherwise why are you mentioning that she wasn’t an a/a? Neither was but Bird’s scoring was 3rd highest for her team.). Many times there are issues with the voting process. And back then there could have also been issues with putting too many players on 1 team as an A/A but maybe not.
Anyhow - a player who is their 3rd leading scorer on a team that lost 1 game while being a #1 scorer in big games in which your team absolutely needed it in which the opposing coach staff is highlighting to players to stop her - you combine that with the great passing along with the great efficiency - for me that is a spectacular season. What's not spectacular is the player that is the 5th option on their team being left wide open. IMO there is a significant difference in this regard. I will change my opinion if I saw a big game or 2 her soph year her offense was a big-time difference maker rather than being "5th." .
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Swerve: 15-player UConn Squad A Team (based on the peak college version of themselves):
meyers7
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I'm sure they think my evaluations are spot on.
meyers7
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I'm sorry that just makes no sense.
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Well we've reached a point we're done with this comparision. Not sure why you think makes no sense but anyhow I prefer Bird slightly above MoJeff in college. I do believe MoJeff is elite. Comparign superstars can be tough. And you or anyone else that has MoJeff as #1 - okay by me.
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Tough crowd here, when Katie Lou Samuelson, a two-time first-team All-American and a third-team All-American another season, can't make the top 15!
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Nykesha Sales deserved to be somewhere on this list
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Tough crowd here, when Katie Lou Samuelson, a two-time first-team All-American and a third-team All-American another season, can't make the top 15!
Replacing who?
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If we're talkign abotu going beyond top 5 like some have I would have Sales in my top 8.
Starters:
PG/SG - Bird
Wings: Paige and DT.
PF: Maya
C: Stewart.
Bench:
PG: MoJeff
Wing: Sales
C: Tina
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KLS, Kerry Bascom and Nykesha were my last agonizing cuts.
- I chose Kaleena and Svetlana over Katie Lou. That was the easiest of the agonizing cuts.
- For the last forward, Kerry was a tantalizing choice because Geno has always raved about her. Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with Kerry, so I chose Morgan over her, Asjha and Tamika.
- The last cut was the most agonizing: Nykesha vs Shea. On paper, Nykesha has (slightly) better numbers. But I feel that what she brings to the roster is already covered by other players. Shea was an infectiously ferocious competitive player and her injuries immediately sunk championship hopes.
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Several people are creative in their lineups and justification. So much so that it ranges from simple eye test to well-reasoned bases for selecting them. While it may seem so, it is not an easy problem. Just one example: are we selecting on the basis of what they were throughout their four years at UConn or what they eventually became. Some started great and stayed that way, e.g. Maya Moore. Some started less assertive, therefore did not show out but eventually rose to her potential, e.g. Moriah Jefferson, so much so that if based only on what she eventually became, some would take her as the best PG over Sue before the verdict is in on Paige. But then, Paige is more like Diana in the greater portion of the roles she has played. And Moriah was a great defender at the point of the defense - much like Nika has done.
Some are thinking positionless basketball players for the team, without saying so but while the composition is a collection of great players, it would basically be a small-ball lineup that can easily be outrebounded by many teams then and now. As well, some are seduced by the greatness of some of these players into a team what would be a weaker defensive team.
And the seductive pull of each of these players can make us easily forget two important things for the team: the player's connectiveness with the rest on the floor on defense and offense and the player's intangibles in terms of inspiring others, creating conditions that make others play better, etc.
Finally, athleticism and speed of the collective as a team. All these at the level they showed, say, at least half of their college career to accommodate growth with the same training methods in the same environment, thus eliminating the effect of unequal opportunities to such development in their high school programs.
I cannot judge anyone before 2001, not having seen them. So.....
The most connected teams with great balance of offense and defense were the four seniors of Sue, Swin, Tamika and Asjha with sophomore Diana in 2001-2002; the two undefeated years of the Maya-Tina Era, the last three years of the Stewie Era and the first year of the post-Stewie Era. I include this last one without an NC because it was a great example of the positionless basketball idea that Coach G sometimes talked about - a smallish team that defeated South Carolina with big front court of Wilson and Coates, by outrebounding them and Gabby outplaying both.
If the 2001-2002 team is acknowledged as the best ever, it was due in large measure to their team play and their connectedness, outstanding read-and-react defense and offense. That being the case, who would you replace to turn it into the all-time UConn starting 5 that would be as outstanding in connectedness and balance for both offense and defense?
Sue and Diana together remains the best backcourt combination at UConn for their skills, intangibles (clutch, inspirational, steely nerves) and flexibility (interchangeable). The way that front court played defense and offense, including relentless offensive rebounding and their interchangeability is difficult to match. Would the combination of Maya, Stewie and Tina match them? Perhaps not in speed (Tina would be the slower one) and interchangeability but yes all else in defense with Stewie enhancing the shot-blocking ability. And yes, this combinaton would significantly raise the offensive capability. But by how much, really? The main advantage would be in its ability to overcome many more defenses with greater margin due to their individual scoring ability.
It is a fun exercise but the team combination you elect may not actually have a significant advantage over that 01-02 team.
Some are thinking positionless basketball players for the team, without saying so but while the composition is a collection of great players, it would basically be a small-ball lineup that can easily be outrebounded by many teams then and now. As well, some are seduced by the greatness of some of these players into a team what would be a weaker defensive team.
And the seductive pull of each of these players can make us easily forget two important things for the team: the player's connectiveness with the rest on the floor on defense and offense and the player's intangibles in terms of inspiring others, creating conditions that make others play better, etc.
Finally, athleticism and speed of the collective as a team. All these at the level they showed, say, at least half of their college career to accommodate growth with the same training methods in the same environment, thus eliminating the effect of unequal opportunities to such development in their high school programs.
I cannot judge anyone before 2001, not having seen them. So.....
The most connected teams with great balance of offense and defense were the four seniors of Sue, Swin, Tamika and Asjha with sophomore Diana in 2001-2002; the two undefeated years of the Maya-Tina Era, the last three years of the Stewie Era and the first year of the post-Stewie Era. I include this last one without an NC because it was a great example of the positionless basketball idea that Coach G sometimes talked about - a smallish team that defeated South Carolina with big front court of Wilson and Coates, by outrebounding them and Gabby outplaying both.
If the 2001-2002 team is acknowledged as the best ever, it was due in large measure to their team play and their connectedness, outstanding read-and-react defense and offense. That being the case, who would you replace to turn it into the all-time UConn starting 5 that would be as outstanding in connectedness and balance for both offense and defense?
Sue and Diana together remains the best backcourt combination at UConn for their skills, intangibles (clutch, inspirational, steely nerves) and flexibility (interchangeable). The way that front court played defense and offense, including relentless offensive rebounding and their interchangeability is difficult to match. Would the combination of Maya, Stewie and Tina match them? Perhaps not in speed (Tina would be the slower one) and interchangeability but yes all else in defense with Stewie enhancing the shot-blocking ability. And yes, this combinaton would significantly raise the offensive capability. But by how much, really? The main advantage would be in its ability to overcome many more defenses with greater margin due to their individual scoring ability.
It is a fun exercise but the team combination you elect may not actually have a significant advantage over that 01-02 team.
meyers7
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I agree. They are very close. I'd take Bird offensively, but they are so close that Jefferson's defense does it for me. (similar to the DT/Moore/Stewart argument, whichever one you think is the best...I can see that) Bird of Jefferson, take your pick.
Actually we (I) did some polls on here a few years ago ranking players by position. It went about as expected, DT/Moore/Stewart/Charles, with Bird/Jefferson ending up in a dead tie. Maybe I'll try it again sometime.
You're argument for "spectacular" YEAR is what doesn't make sense (comparatively).