All Decade Team for WCBB

[j66kicker]

If Ionescu can lead a very talented Oregon squad (three likely Top 10 WNBA picks) to a national title in 2020, then she will merit more support to be on that All-Decade team based upon her other individual accomplishments and the ultimate team prize. That may be why you sense that she is passing more this season. We know that she hates to lose. She may be orchestrating more and asserting herself less on offense this season. The facts include that she isn't shooting as well from the field this season, so I thought that her November fall during a game may still be slowing her down a bit.

Very insightful regarding UConn fans' expectations, and an educational reminder that it isn't like this everywhere. Thanks.

I have seen Sabrina play in person several times and totally agree with the rest of the world that she has "it". I think she agrees with the concept that to be great you need to win the whole thing, hence her return for her senior year to 'take care of unfinished business.' That mindset in itself makes me put her in the most elite group. In spite of my unshakable UConn allegiance, I find myself rooting for her to accomplish that goal. (At the end of the day, if it comes down to her or UConn, I will be rooting for UConn, but I consider her to be a rare talent, and will follow her career with special attention for years to come.)

 

[bballnut90]

Why does making it beyond a F4 have such an impact in people's minds when speaking of individual players? Getting to a championship is a team accomplishment more than an individual accomplishment. Is Elena Delle Donne over-hyped? Did EDD win a NCAA Championship? I guess we shouldn't consider any player that didn't win a National Championship.

I don't think a title for a Final Four is a pre-requisite, but when making these teams I consider individual success/accolades, talent level, statistics, ability to lead a team to success, and their play in big games. In these areas, EDD is obviously a standout in the first 3 but falls short in the last two.

To be honest, I really didn't see that many games of EDD in college and I'm willing to bet very few people saw more than a few of her games, if any, when she was in college. Her program never faced anyone of note and was rarely ever on TV. This was also before games were consistently broadcast on the internet. At the collegiate level we never saw her prove she was an elite player because she didn't compete against elite competition. It'd be different if we saw her compete against top players and prove she was the best player on the court in big games, but that never happened. Had she chosen to go to a more prestigious school, she probably would be a lock for first team based on how well she has done post-college, but fact is, her program really wasn't relevant or spoken about much in the landscape of women's basketball until her senior season. Based on that, I can't understand the logic of choosing her over Wilson for a WCBB All-Decade team when A'ja accomplished pretty much everything she could during her career on a team and individual level (besides a win over UCONN).

 

[Mdoggie]

KML has 3 championships compared to Sabrinas 0. SI all decade? Give me a break

 

[BlueDevils]

Odyssey Sims and Moriah Jefferson were two of the best two way guards this decade. Hard to omit both.

 

[nwhoopfan]

KML has 3 championships compared to Sabrinas 0. SI all decade? Give me a break

Did she win 3 Championships single handed? Having Stewie/Jefferson/Tuck come in right behind her and Dolson/Hartley ahead of her had something to do with it.

 

[Mdoggie]

Did she win 3 Championships single handed? Having Stewie/Jefferson/Tuck come in right behind her and Dolson/Hartley ahead of her had something to do with it.

Correct and SI comes in behind all of them. Before SI makes an "All decade team" win something first. Also maybe you should check KML stats during those Ships.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Correct and SI comes in behind all of them. Before SI makes an "All decade team" win something first. Also maybe you should check KML stats during those Ships.

She was really good no doubt and was a big contributor to all of those Title teams. However how many do you think she would've won if she picked a different school than UConn? Probably zero. Teams win Championships, not individuals.

 

[triaddukefan]

Well now I know what the M stands for in MDoggie

 

[BlueDevils]

1st Team
C-Griner
F-Stewart
F-N.Ogwumike
G-Diggins
G-Sims

2nd Team
C-Dolson
F-Delle Donne
F-Wilson
G-Jefferson
G-Ionescu

HM
G-Loyd
G-McBride
F-Mosqueda-Lewis
F-C.Ogwumike
G-K.Mitchell
G-Ogunbowale
C-E.Williams
F-A.Thomas
C-McCowan
G-Plum

 

[Mdoggie]

Well now I know what the M stands for in MDoggie

Right

 

[biobioprof]

Why does making it beyond a F4 have such an impact in people's minds when speaking of individual players? Getting to a championship is a team accomplishment more than an individual accomplishment. Is Elena Delle Donne over-hyped? Did EDD win a NCAA Championship? I guess we shouldn't consider any player that didn't win a National Championship.

I don't think championships should be dispositive, but tournament runs do speak to performance against stronger competition than is seen in most conferences. Certainly that's the case for EDD, IMO. Which is why Larry Bird taking Indiana State to the finals vs Magic Johnson would be counted more than EDD getting Delaware to the S16. I, for one, am not going back and recalculating opponent RPI for the years individual players were at their schools, but I think there's a general sense that the candidates from the bigger conferences will have an edge over players from mid-majors, and that UConn's OOC plus tourney runs puts them in the top tier despite playing in the AAC.

I agree with your no brainer list of Griner, Wilson, Stewie, and Maya with the caveat that bballnut's post that started this thread specifically eliminated Maya

player must have played at least 3 collegiate seasons ending between 2010-2019. So, for example, Maya Moore would not be eligible (grad in 2011) but Nneka Ogwumike (grad in 2012) is.

Perhaps there should be some discussion about whether this is appropriate: in addition to Moore, the 3 season requirement takes out any player who went the JUCO route. I don't know if Danielle Adams would qualify as all-decade anyway, but I'm not a fan of eliminating her based on years played vs impact.

I think Ionescu is first team and should be a no-brainer, but obviously others disagree. Of the PGs being disussed, Sabrina, Diggins, and MoJeff all won the Lieberman twice. I believe Sabrina is the only one of those to have a NPOY on top of that, and assuming she's the favorite for this year she could joint Sue Bird as the only player to get 3 Liebermans. MoJeff gets a bump over Diggins for the 2016 DPOY.

This also leads to the question of whether the all-decade teams have to be composed by position like actual teams or like some of post-season honors teams. In other words, do we need a post, 2 forwards, and 2 guards on each team? If so (and following bballnut's ruling on Maya):

1st team
Griner - C
Wilson - PF
Stewart - SF
Ionescu - SG
Jefferson - PG

Still thinking about my 2nd team and HM, but just want to add that I'm surprised that Victoria Vivians isn't mentioned more by the Miss State fans.

 

[DefenseBB]

No love for Kelsey Mitchell?

NO

 

[hoopsfan22]

Well now I know what the M stands for in MDoggie

Mosqueda?

 

[Dwilliams02]

Never seen anybody "shut down" Sabrina. I've seen Oregon State guards slow her down, but not shut her down. And Jefferson at 5'6", as good of an on-ball defender as Moriah is, couldn't shut down Sabrina. Think you missed the point entirely.....Sabrina accounts for her team's points directly and indirectly....and is intelligent enough to recognize what is the best/optimal way she can contribute to her team.

Cough. Didi Richards

 

[LoTrader]

Cough. Didi Richards

Oregon State has done the same, but Sabrina is never shut down. It takes an entire team to slow down Sabrina. Sabrina still scored 18 pts & 6 assists vs Baylor, and 21 pts & 4 assists vs OSU. Baylor and OSU won these games because the entire team defense vs Oregon (and Sabrina specifically) minimized Sabrina's overall impact. Watching Sabrina this year, it is clear she is focused on improving her ability to impact the overall team's performance, vs. getting individual stats like triple doubles. She is maturing and improving.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

Oregon State has done the same, but Sabrina is never shut down. It takes an entire team to slow down Sabrina. Sabrina still scored 18 pts & 6 assists vs Baylor, and 21 pts & 4 assists vs OSU. Baylor and OSU won these games because the entire team defense vs Oregon (and Sabrina specifically) minimized Sabrina's overall impact. Watching Sabrina this year, it is clear she is focused on improving her ability to impact the overall team's performance, vs. getting individual stats like triple doubles. She is maturing and improving.

I agree that Ionescu this season is doing a better job of facilitating and getting her teammates involved than she did in key losses last season.

Last season, Ionescu shot 9/25 in her team's loss to Oregon State and 6/24 against Baylor. I understand why the poster above mentioned Didi Richards. Richards had a lot to do with that 6/24 shooting performance in the Final Four by Ionescu.

 

[bballnut90]

Oregon State has done the same, but Sabrina is never shut down. It takes an entire team to slow down Sabrina. Sabrina still scored 18 pts & 6 assists vs Baylor, and 21 pts & 4 assists vs OSU. Baylor and OSU won these games because the entire team defense vs Oregon (and Sabrina specifically) minimized Sabrina's overall impact. Watching Sabrina this year, it is clear she is focused on improving her ability to impact the overall team's performance, vs. getting individual stats like triple doubles. She is maturing and improving.

You'll never shut down a guard who takes 24 shots and is a primary ballhandler. Ionescu will always have a big stat line if the entire offense is running through her. So shut down might not be the best term to use for guards, but rather force someone into playing incredibly inefficient basketball which programs have proven they're able to do against her.

 

[bballnut90]

I don't think championships should be dispositive, but tournament runs do speak to performance against stronger competition than is seen in most conferences. Certainly that's the case for EDD, IMO. Which is why Larry Bird taking Indiana State to the finals vs Magic Johnson would be counted more than EDD getting Delaware to the S16. I, for one, am not going back and recalculating opponent RPI for the years individual players were at their schools, but I think there's a general sense that the candidates from the bigger conferences will have an edge over players from mid-majors, and that UConn's OOC plus tourney runs puts them in the top tier despite playing in the AAC.

I agree with your no brainer list of Griner, Wilson, Stewie, and Maya with the caveat that bballnut's post that started this thread specifically eliminated Maya

Perhaps there should be some discussion about whether this is appropriate: in addition to Moore, the 3 season requirement takes out any player who went the JUCO route. I don't know if Danielle Adams would qualify as all-decade anyway, but I'm not a fan of eliminating her based on years played vs impact.

I think Ionescu is first team and should be a no-brainer, but obviously others disagree. Of the PGs being disussed, Sabrina, Diggins, and MoJeff all won the Lieberman twice. I believe Sabrina is the only one of those to have a NPOY on top of that, and assuming she's the favorite for this year she could joint Sue Bird as the only player to get 3 Liebermans. MoJeff gets a bump over Diggins for the 2016 DPOY.

This also leads to the question of whether the all-decade teams have to be composed by position like actual teams or like some of post-season honors teams. In other words, do we need a post, 2 forwards, and 2 guards on each team? If so (and following bballnut's ruling on Maya):

1st team
Griner - C
Wilson - PF
Stewart - SF
Ionescu - SG
Jefferson - PG

Still thinking about my 2nd team and HM, but just want to add that I'm surprised that Victoria Vivians isn't mentioned more by the Miss State fans.

Moore would obviously be 1st team and Adam's HM, but in this decade they only played 1.5 full seasons (all of 2010 and half of 2011) so I didnt include them.

I understand the argument for Ionescu and dont necessarily disagree with the arguments. Much of it comes down to what you value more. I just think at this point, Diggins and Jefferson are much more proven on the big stage (Sabrina had a poor showing in the Final Four) so I'd give them the edge. Whether you win a Lieberman Award, DPOY or POY doesnt mean a lot when comparing head to head IMO. Jefferson likely wins POY if Stewart isnt there as a senior, and Diggins was likely 2nd or 3rd in POY behind Griner both of her last two seasons. Ionescu simply hasnt had a player the caliber of Griner or Stewart to compete with for POY awards, so I don't think it is fair to penalize Jefferson/Diggins for not taking home the trophy when you take that into consideration.


Regarding Vivians, she was phenomenal as a senior and helped get her team to the Final Four as a junior, but like Plum was largely a volume shooter her first 3 years and never put her team on her back to take them to the Final Four. Morgan William carried them in the Elite 8, McCowan dominated the 4th quarter in the 2017 Sweet 16. McCowan's dominance over her last two years shone brighter to me than Vivians being a big scorer although I thought Vivians was an excellent player.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

No love for Kelsey Mitchell?

It got very cold in here, all of a sudden.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

Regarding Vivians, she was phenomenal as a senior and helped get her team to the Final Four as a junior, but like Plum was largely a volume shooter her first 3 years and never put her team on her back to take them to the Final Four. Morgan William carried them in the Elite 8, McCowan dominated the 4th quarter in the 2017 Sweet 16. McCowan's dominance over her last two years shone brighter to me than Vivians being a big scorer although I thought Vivians was an excellent player.

Count me as one of those MSU fans who loves Vivians and was proud of how far she came while she was in college but I honorable mention is more than fair for her. She could put up big numbers but really isn’t in the same class of players as Griner, EDD, Stewart etc. still, I’m proud she made the decision to stay home and get MSU to a new level.

 

[the Q]

I think Diggins can be moved to second team. I think Arike had a better collegiate career.

Funny. Cause I’m moving Arike off for plum. And it’s not even a consideration. It’s a no brainer imo.

 

[Grad1990]

In terms of talent EDD is obviously a top 5 player this decade but collegiately she was a standout for a program that just didnt accomplish much. She did get them to a Sweet 16, but I have a hard time putting her above someone like Wilson who led her team to a title, another Final Four, swept every POY award as a senior, won 4 SEC tournament titles and 3 SEC POY awards.

I have little doubt that EDD would've been a standout on any team she played on, but fact is she only faced I think 4 or 5 ranked teams over her 4 years and made it to 1 Sweet 16. Cant reward that with 1st or even 2nd team IMO even if she may be the most talented one of the bunch.

Any all decade team sans EDD is not credible.

Had she played her four years at Uconn.....then Uconn would probably not have lost a single game. If you think about it....this makes many of the "relevancy" arguments about who played with who and where suspect at best.

EDD was and is one of the most impactful, arguably the most impactful, player of all time in WBB history.

Does anyone here seriously think that had any one of the players on all the decade team played in Delaware in place of EDD, they would have led Delaware to a much different result?

IMO, EDD is a first team. Had she played at Uconn no one here would have left her off.

 

[j66kicker]

Any all decade team sans EDD is simply not credible.

Had she played her four years at Uconn.....Uconn would probably not have lost a single game. If you think about it....this makes many of the "relevancy" arguments about who played with who and where suspect at best.

EDD was and is one of the most impactful, arguably the most impactful, player of all time in WBB history.

Does anyone here seriously think that had any one of the players on all the decade team played in Delaware in place of EDD, would have led Delaware to a much different result?

IMO, EDD is a first team. Had she played at Uconn no one here would have left her off.

I’d give EDD HM at best. She never won anything in college, tagged along for freebie Olympic gold, and never won the WNBA until this year when all the other WNBA stars were hurt or out. Doesn’t have the heart of a champion.

 

[bballnut90]

Any all decade team sans EDD is not credible.

Had she played her four years at Uconn.....then Uconn would probably not have lost a single game. If you think about it....this makes many of the "relevancy" arguments about who played with who and where suspect at best.

EDD was and is one of the most impactful, arguably the most impactful, player of all time in WBB history.

Does anyone here seriously think that had any one of the players on all the decade team played in Delaware in place of EDD, they would have led Delaware to a much different result?

IMO, EDD is a first team. Had she played at Uconn no one here would have left her off.

1. The hypotheticals are nice, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about what a player did accomplish and do during their college career. EDD didn't play at UCONN. She didn't win 4 titles or have an undefeated season. She played at Delaware where she made 2 NCAAs and 1 Sweet 16.

2. As stated other times in the thread, this isn't a "who is the most talented player" competition. If it was, EDD would be on everyone's first team. It's who had the best collegiate career. If any of the players I had on first team played at Delaware, they probably wouldn't have led Delaware after further than EDD, nor would they be higher than HM. That part is irrelevant.

3. EDD is not the most impactful player in the history of WBB.

4. How many games of EDD's did you watch when she was at Delaware?

 

[LoTrader]

1. The hypotheticals are nice, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about what a player did accomplish and do during their college career. EDD didn't play at UCONN. She didn't win 4 titles or have an undefeated season. She played at Delaware where she made 2 NCAAs and 1 Sweet 16.

2. As stated other times in the thread, this isn't a "who is the most talented player" competition. If it was, EDD would be on everyone's first team. It's who had the best collegiate career. If any of the players I had on first team played at Delaware, they probably wouldn't have led Delaware after further than EDD, nor would they be higher than HM. That part is irrelevant.

3. EDD is not the most impactful player in the history of WBB.

4. How many games of EDD's did you watch when she was at Delaware?

Well then, "All Decade Team" should have been a "team" accomplishment, and then it would make sense to not include EDD & Sabrina.