About Dorka's Defense (And Liv's Also)

[JoePgh]

I watched the Arkansas game for (I think) the third time last night, and I noticed something that I hadn't noticed before -- actually it was rather obvious.

Did any of you notice that Dorka did not play for a single second in the fourth quarter, even though she was not in foul trouble? Geno started the 4th quarter with five guards, and then after a minute or so he put Aaliyah back in despite her four fouls. He let her play for about half the quarter until the famous incident where she failed to make any defensive effort. Then he went to Liv, who finished the game.

Why didn't Dorka play in the fourth quarter? Because, in the second and third quarters, she failed spectacularly to defend the rim. That started on the first defensive possession after Azzi and Dorka entered the game. An Arkansas player drove on Azzi and beat her, and Dorka was completely AWOL. (Some people thought it was Liv who had failed, but she was on the bench when that happened.) Nika was defending the weak side baseline, and rushed over to help when she saw that Azzi had been marooned. She got a foul for her efforts.

Maria Marino, the sideline reporter, told us that Geno had instructed the team during timeouts to back off to stop the drives, even if it meant giving up a jump shot. Early in the game, he hollered at Liv for leaving the paint to challenge a jump shot by Arkansas's post player, but obviously Dorka (then on the bench) paid no attention to that. Geno said during a halftime interview that he had repeated the same message. But Dorka still didn't get it -- in the third quarter she continued to defend the Arkansas posts 17 to 20 feet from the basket, and left the rim completely undefended. Arkansas took advantage of that to get numerous layups on both drives and passes.

Obviously (as Geno must have stressed) the whole premise of the Arkansas offense was to draw UConn's bigs away from the basket so that guards could attack the basket with no fear of getting their shots blocked. What Dorka was doing played right into that strategy. Against that team, the UConn post player has to play a 1-person zone, i.e., stand under the basket with her hands up inviting all comers. That will usually cause the opposing guards to pull up and either shoot or pass, both options being less dangerous than a layup. Or they may try to drive into the player and draw a foul, but the defensive player has the advantage if the offensive player initiates the contact.

By contrast, it appeared to me that Liv actually played good team defense and did not abandon the paint after that first mistake, even when the player she was guarding was well away from the basket. She helped to stop a lot of potential drives by being in the right position in the lane, and most of the time, the Arkansas shooters were not able to make the 10-foot pullups that they got. It appeared to me that the vast majority of the successful penetrations by Arkansas occurred when Dorka was in the game (setting aside those intentionally permitted by Liv and AE because of their foul trouble).

There was one play when an Arkansas player drove against Azzi, and Azzi's defense was good enough to make the player change directions and plow straight into Liv. It looked like a clear charge to me in live action, but on replay I noticed that while Liv had her feet planted, her heel was in the restricted area. I presume that is why the official called it a block.

I also noticed that there were a few plays where Azzi got stops or steals on drive attempts against her. She also got a block at close range at the end of the first half. I think we may have shortchanged her defensive abilities by failing to notice the total lack of help in a number of the cases where she gave up layups.

I expect to see a different defensive Dorka (how's that for alliteration?) in the Bahamas.

 

[Charliebball]

I watched the Arkansas game for (I think) the third time last night, and I noticed something that I hadn't noticed before -- actually it was rather obvious.

Did any of you notice that Dorka did not play for a single second in the fourth quarter, even though she was not in foul trouble? Geno started the 4th quarter with five guards, and then after a minute or so he put Aaliyah back in despite her four fouls. He let her play for about half the quarter until the famous incident where she failed to make any defensive effort. Then he went to Liv, who finished the game.

Why didn't Dorka play in the fourth quarter? Because, in the second and third quarters, she failed spectacularly to defend the rim. That started on the first defensive possession after Azzi and Dorka entered the game. An Arkansas player drove on Azzi and beat her, and Dorka was completely AWOL. (Some people thought it was Liv who had failed, but she was on the bench when that happened.) Nika was defending the weak side baseline, and rushed over to help when she saw that Azzi had been marooned. She got a foul for her efforts.

Maria Marino, the sideline reporter, told us that Geno had instructed the team during timeouts to back off to stop the drives, even if it meant giving up a jump shot. Early in the game, he hollered at Liv for leaving the paint to challenge a jump shot by Arkansas's post player, but obviously Dorka (then on the bench) paid no attention to that. Geno said during a halftime interview that he had repeated the same message. But Dorka still didn't get it -- in the third quarter she continued to defend the Arkansas posts 17 to 20 feet from the basket, and left the rim completely undefended. Arkansas took advantage of that to get numerous layups on both drives and passes.

Obviously (as Geno must have stressed) the whole premise of the Arkansas offense was to draw UConn's bigs away from the basket so that guards could attack the basket with no fear of getting their shots blocked. What Dorka was doing played right into that strategy. Against that team, the UConn post player has to play a 1-person zone, i.e., stand under the basket with her hands up inviting all comers. That will usually cause the opposing guards to pull up and either shoot or pass, both options being less dangerous than a layup. Or they may try to drive into the player and draw a foul, but the defensive player has the advantage if the offensive player initiates the contact.

By contrast, it appeared to me that Liv actually played good team defense and did not abandon the paint after that first mistake, even when the player she was guarding was well away from the basket. She helped to stop a lot of potential drives by being in the right position in the lane, and most of the time, the Arkansas shooters were not able to make the 10-foot pullups that they got. It appeared to me that the vast majority of the successful penetrations by Arkansas occurred when Dorka was in the game (setting aside those intentionally permitted by Liv and AE because of their foul trouble).

There was one play when an Arkansas player drove against Azzi, and Azzi's defense was good enough to make the player change directions and plow straight into Liv. It looked like a clear charge to me in live action, but on replay I noticed that while Liv had her feet planted, her heel was in the restricted area. I presume that is why the official called it a block.

I also noticed that there were a few plays where Azzi got stops or steals on drive attempts against her. She also got a block at close range at the end of the first half. I think we may have shortchanged her defensive abilities by failing to notice the total lack of help in a number of the cases where she gave up layups.

I expect to see a different defensive Dorka (how's that for alliteration?) in the Bahamas.

ONO doesn't get enough credit for being a defensive force.........yes she fouls too much but she blocks shots, she makes players change their shots and she intimidates drivers often during the course of a game.......if she could limit her fouls it would make a big difference.....

 

[CocoHusky]

ONO doesn't get enough credit for being a defensive force.........yes she fouls too much but she blocks shots, she makes players change their shots and she intimidates drivers often during the course of a game.......if she could limit her fouls it would make a big difference.....

Three years ago Liv got her first meaningful minutes in a UCONN uniform. The game was against Dorka and tOSU and Liv played only 5 minutes in which she recorded one block and got 2 personal fouls. Regretfully that last sentence you wrote was true then and remains true today.

 

[oldude]

Three years ago Liv got her first meaningful minutes in a UCONN uniform. The game was against Dorka and tOSU and Liv played only 5 minutes in which she recorded one block and got 2 personal fouls. Regretfully that last sentence you wrote was true then and remains true today.

3 years ago, Liv was a freshman in her first college game and she didn’t start. Dorka did start but had a pretty disappointing game 2-8 (0-4) as UConn won by 32.

Maybe a better comparison would be 2 years ago, a much closer game, when both players started. Dorka played 32 minutes, was 4-14 (0-5) but pulled down 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 1block. Liv played 38 minutes, was 3-7, pulling down 12 rebounds, 3 assists & 4 blocks.

I would really prefer that the BY stop the negative comparison between Liv and Dorka, but if it must continue, let’s at least present a full and accurate picture. I think both players will help UConn this year, and it was apparent from the Arkansas game that both players have room for improvement.

 

[boontonbomber]

3 years ago, Liv was a freshman in her first college game and she didn’t start. Dorka did start but had a pretty disappointing game 2-8 (0-4) as UConn won by 32.

Maybe a better comparison would be 2 years ago, a much closer game, when both players started. Dorka played 32 minutes, was 4-14 (0-5) but pulled down 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 1block. Liv played 38 minutes, was 3-7, pulling down 12 rebounds, 3 assists & 4 blocks.

I would really prefer that the BY stop the negative comparison between Liv and Dorka, but if it must continue, let’s at least present a full and accurate picture. I think both players will help UConn this year, and it was apparent from the Arkansas game that both players have room for improvement.

Thanks for your comments, OD. Cherry picking stats to make some kind of argument might work in some places, but not on the Boneyard!

 

[Tonyc]

JMO and I agree with Joe. Keep the Liv and Dorka under the basket on defense. Use more intimidation and dont swap or jump to block shots. That will eliminate fouls.

 

[Drew8]

JMO and I agree with Joe. Keep the Liv and Dorka under the basket on defense. Use more intimidation and dont swap or jump to block shots. That will eliminate fouls.

Arkansas is tricky to guard. They put up the most points that both UConn and South Carolina gave up in a game last season.

 

[oldude]

Arkansas is tricky to guard. They put up the most points that both UConn and South Carolina gave up in a game last season.

They also put up the most points that MD gave up (96) while giving up 111 to the Terps. The Razorbacks play fast and score a lot of points. The way to beat them is to outscore them, something UConn managed to do this past Sunday.

 

[Heytherego]

Why do you say Dorka is more traditional than Liv?
IMO Liv is much more traditional than Dorka (even though I don’t consider either the traditional center). Dorka’s potential seems to be more of the new type of big, that has the ability to stretch out the the 3 point line and much more mobile. Liv would rather post up or hit a mid range. I don’t think either of them really represent the traditional big, but Liv would more than Dorka.

 

[CocoHusky]

3 years ago, Liv was a freshman in her first college game and she didn’t start. Dorka did start but had a pretty disappointing game 2-8 (0-4) as UConn won by 32.

Maybe a better comparison would be 2 years ago, a much closer game, when both players started. Dorka played 32 minutes, was 4-14 (0-5) but pulled down 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 1block. Liv played 38 minutes, was 3-7, pulling down 12 rebounds, 3 assists & 4 blocks.

I would really prefer that the BY stop the negative comparison between Liv and Dorka, but if it must continue, let’s at least present a full and accurate picture. I think both players will help UConn this year, and it was apparent from the Arkansas game that both players have room for improvement.

Positively Pavlovian that you would see a comparison of Liv to Dorka in my post when none was mentioned. A full and accurate picture would would also include the fact that the other three UCONN post players in that game Collier, Irwin and Walker would combine to commit only two PFs in 68 minutes of game action which matched Liv’s total PFs in 5 minutes of game action. The point, should you continue to wish it away, is that Liv was foul prone then an she remains largely so today. That has nothing to do with Dorka.

 

[Charliebball]

Three years ago Liv got her first meaningful minutes in a UCONN uniform. The game was against Dorka and tOSU and Liv played only 5 minutes in which she recorded one block and got 2 personal fouls. Regretfully that last sentence you wrote was true then and remains true today.

yes incredibly frustrating although I have to say there have been more than a few of those phantom calls over the years........she doesn't have that natural ability like a Kiah Stokes but then again not many do.........

 

[oldude]

Positively Pavlovian that you would see a comparison of Liv to Dorka in my post when none was mentioned. A full and accurate picture would would also include the fact that the other three UCONN post players in that game Collier, Irwin and Walker would combine to commit only two PFs in 68 minutes of game action which matched Liv’s total PFs in 5 minutes of game action. The point, should you continue to wish it away, is that Liv was foul prone then an she remains largely so today. That has nothing to do with Dorka.

Why would you bring up Liv’s first game ever as a college player, mentioning that it was against Dorka, in a thread about Dorka, had you not wanted to compare the two? Not only did Liv not start that game, but she was behind Irwin, Bent, Coombs & Camara in UConn’s rotation.

Talking about Pavlovian responses, let’s be honest what this is about. You’ve made it clear repeatedly you believe Dorka is a better player than Liv and should start ahead of her. That may happen, but based on Dorka’s play in the first game against Arkansas It’s not happening against MN.

 

[The deacon]

yes incredibly frustrating although I have to say there have been more than a few of those phantom calls over the years........she doesn't have that natural ability like a Kiah Stokes but then again not many do.........

Agreed, Charlie, but, as you might have noticed vs. Arkansas and certainly in other games, Liv has committed at least her share of fouls that weren't called...

I definitely can agree re Kiah, and numerous others we could name. I suspect would Liv ever play much in the WNBA, she'll still be battling the foul tendency.

 

[TeamFirst!]

I like Dorka as more of a rebounding forward. I think the team is better with 2 bigs. It depends on the situation, of course, but overall I'd just tell Dorka to go rebound and defend. Pick up points on defensive mismatches.

 

[Carnac]

ONO doesn't get enough credit for being a defensive force.........yes she fouls too much but she blocks shots, she makes players change their shots and she intimidates drivers often during the course of a game.......if she could limit her fouls it would make a big difference.....

UConn is a different team when she’s on the bench. I agree with your take 100%. This is her 4th year in the program. She has got to realize by now how valuable she is to the team, and what a difference it makes when she’s on the floor guarding the paint.

Unless and until someone else steps up and challenges her or out plays her, ONO is your starting 5 for the season. A very well written and detailed analysis of UConn’s defensive woes Sunday. Thank you.

I’m reminded what the “Wizard of Westwood” John Wooden would often reference with respect to getting a player’s attention in changing their approach, attitude or bad habits: “The bench is an excellent teacher.“ It was true during the Wooden era, it’s true today. At some point Dorka will get the message.

 

[Fossil]

ONO doesn't get enough credit for being a defensive force.........yes she fouls too much but she blocks shots, she makes players change their shots and she intimidates drivers often during the course of a game.......if she could limit her fouls it would make a big difference.....

I think Olivia would save herself two fouls a game if when she attempts a block she didn’t swipe at the ball and kept her arms more vertical it’s when she swats for the ball and comes down on the offensive players arms that’s when she gets called for her fouls. I know it’s been spoken about but it appears she has a hard time not doing it. The excitement of a big block overrides her training I guess

 

[PvP]

3 years ago, Liv was a freshman in her first college game and she didn’t start. Dorka did start but had a pretty disappointing game 2-8 (0-4) as UConn won by 32.

Maybe a better comparison would be 2 years ago, a much closer game, when both players started. Dorka played 32 minutes, was 4-14 (0-5) but pulled down 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 1block. Liv played 38 minutes, was 3-7, pulling down 12 rebounds, 3 assists & 4 blocks.

I would really prefer that the BY stop the negative comparison between Liv and Dorka, but if it must continue, let’s at least present a full and accurate picture. I think both players will help UConn this year, and it was apparent from the Arkansas game that both players have room for improvement.

Somehow I don't get the significance of how Liv and Dorka performed playing against one another years ago. Unless I am missing something, they are now playing on the same team and need to be evaluated by how they play against OTHER teams.

 

[Geesworld]

All I know is that it was the first game for EVERYBODY!

I hate the fact that Dorka's first game was riddle with foul trouble and a few missed assignments, but hey new team and new system. I think Dorka and Liv should of should have to continued to play verses sitting on the bench in the 4th quarter. Situational basketball is something coaches must be prepared for when the plan doesn't go as designed. You may face foul trouble down the road in much bigger scenario it's part of Basketball. Let the players learn how to play thru that adversity.

 

[HopJim]

3 years ago, Liv was a freshman in her first college game and she didn’t start. Dorka did start but had a pretty disappointing game 2-8 (0-4) as UConn won by 32.

Maybe a better comparison would be 2 years ago, a much closer game, when both players started. Dorka played 32 minutes, was 4-14 (0-5) but pulled down 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 1block. Liv played 38 minutes, was 3-7, pulling down 12 rebounds, 3 assists & 4 blocks.

I would really prefer that the BY stop the negative comparison between Liv and Dorka, but if it must continue, let’s at least present a full and accurate picture. I think both players will help UConn this year, and it was apparent from the Arkansas game that both players have room for improvement.

To add to Dude's comments, the only stat I really want to focus on is wins. If I was one to cherry pick, I would look to Ohio State's record last year ver UConn's. OSU women's team in a shortened season lost 7 games, their last 4 in a row. Glad Dorka is on Huskies and see her value throughout year. Dorka's value likely to evolve throughout year based on game by game needs.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Somehow I don't get the significance of how Liv and Dorka performed playing against one another years ago. Unless I am missing something, they are now playing on the same team and need to be evaluated by how they play against OTHER teams.

Because we had all just survived 600+ posts on some sort of thread about Dorka starting over Liv, of which I contributed a couple.