A Summer Mystery About Kelly and Tiffany (and Stef and Bria)

[JoePgh]

As usual, I am too lazy to look up stats, but I wonder how many of you share my impression that during their respective careers at UConn, Kelly Faris had somewhat more of an impact on UConn's success than Tiffany Hayes did. Tiffany was certainly a more prolific scorer and a more accomplished athlete, and certainly contributed much to UConn's success, but I don't think she had the impact that Kelly had through her "glue" qualities.

So I am quite surprised at how large an impact Tiffany has had in the WNBA, and how minimal a contribution Kelly has been able to make at that level.

To some degree, one could say the same thing about Bria and Stef. Again, my subjective impression over their four simultaneous years at UConn was that while both had a major impact, Stef's impact was greater through her "off-the-scoresheet" contributions (passing and screening, for example). But at the WNBA level, at least during this one season, Bria has clearly outperformed Stef in her impact on the Washington Mystics.

Is there a pattern here? What "lessons" can be drawn from these comparisons, if they are accurate? For example, does it indicate that basketball at the pro level depends more on individual athletic skills than the college game does? Is less "glue" needed at that level? Are pro offenses more reliant on individuals getting their own shots and making acrobatic, improbable shots with some consistency?

Why was Stef able to tame Chiney Ogwumike when they played against each other in college, but Chiney has hugely outshone Stef in the WNBA? Why was Kelly able to neutralize Alyssa Thomas in college, but Thomas far surpasses her contributions to the Sun?

My theory is that the difference is attributable to two major factors distinguishing the elite college game from the WNBA: (a) WNBA defenses are much less error-prone, which means that high levels of athleticism are required to get good shots and make an impact as a scorer -- meaning that "pretty" passing to capitalize on defensive breakdowns (on which the UConn offense largely relies) will not work at the pro level; and (b) it is not possible at the pro level to focus a defense on one or two star players on the premise that the other players aren't going to beat you -- WNBA teams have four to seven players with sufficient offensive skill to win a game if the defense does not pay attention to them.

Under these conditions, there is indeed less payoff for "glue" contributions. If that is true, it means that if Geno coached at the pro level, he would have to adjust his coaching to allow more individual offensive play and diminish the tic-tac-toe passing game that we all like to watch. I have no doubt that he would make the adjustment and would be successful, but we might not find the product as engaging as his college teams have been.

 

[bruinbball]

I have watched a lot of Sun games the last two years. I am disappointed at the minimal opportunity Kelly has been given this year. For her to be successful in the WNBA, I would like to see her stay home this off season and focus on working on her offensive game and mindset. She has always been willing to do the right thing and make the right pass on offense, but it is clear that if she wants more opportunity to play in the league that she needs to be much more aggressive. I am still frustrated when I see an opposing guard/small forward score 20 plus on the Sun knowing that if Kelly was guarding her it would likely be less. However, I doubt she would completely neutralize players like she did in college because the WNBA players are so much more gifted offensively, but making them work hard and hit tough shots would only benefit the Sun.

Just to give a comparison, Kelly has played 149 minutes this year, Danielle McCray has played 142. She has taken 19 more FG attempts than Kelly.

 

[sarals24]

Bria was a stud in high school and college, so it's not surprising that she is doing well in the WNBA. Her type of game lends itself to success at the pro level...quick slasher to the basket with enough of an outside shot to keep defenses honest. Same with Thomas. I don't think anyone is surprised that Alyssa Thomas is doing better in the pros than Kelly. To earn a spot on the floor on a pro team, you have to be able to score. Kelly's scoring improved, but she was never a true scorer, like Thomas.

Stef's game will improve, but it doesn't automatically translate to the pros. She was bigger and stronger than most posts she played against at UConn, and Geno's offense allowed her to make passes and set screens, two skills she excels at. I think she'll work hard and get to the point where she is a solid contributor, but she isn't as fast or athletic as most of the posts she will face in the pros. If she could turn into a McCarville type player I think she will have lots of success.

 

[Aluminny69]

The best example supporting your theory is Charde Houston. Consistently in Geno's doghouse in college, Charde has had a solid pro career.

 

[Striper69]

Why was Stef able to tame Chiney Ogwumike when they played against each other in college, but Chiney has hugely outshone Stef in the WNBA? Why was Kelly able to neutralize Alyssa Thomas in college, but Thomas far surpasses her contributions to the Sun?

Kind of a pattern here.

Stef and Faris are both subs off the bench because there are already established vets on the team that play at their positions. Stef does get more minutes but is more in the grooming mode for the future.

Chiney (and Thomas to a lesser degree) have to play a lot of minutes and do well for the team to succeed RIGHT NOW.

 

[DEK1234]

So I am quite surprised at how large an impact Tiffany has had in the WNBA, and how minimal a contribution Kelly has been able to make at that level.

I'm not surprised by Tiffany's performance in the WNBA. At UCONN, she was successful as a complementary player to the likes of Maya Moore and Tina Charles. She has essentially walked into the same situation with Angel McCoughtry and Atlanta. She's never been the number one option but is still able to contribute on the court and score.

As others have pointed out, Kelly's lack of scoring is probably what is contributing to her lack of playing time. All the people you've mentioned (Thomas, Hartley, Hayes) can put up numbers when needed.

 

[msf22b]

The difficulty of the question has resulted in a paucity of answers.
And some of my possible responses may not please our esteemed pundits because even suggesting possible deficiencies in the coaching staff
is very unpopular here.

Some ideas: (all theories, I really don't have any categorical answers).

1. Tiff underachieved at UConn; there were these flashes, the Arizona (or was it State) tough game in the NCAA's, which she took over with
her 3-bomb, but in general, one remembers her spending a lot of time on the floor and not a ton of memorable moments especially in her
senior year (injured?). Sure, she had alot of good games but it's also quite possible that she responds better to a different system and a
different coach.

2. The biggest problem for Stef is that she gained weight and lost her edge. Also her game is primarily finesse and it's going to take a
bit of time to find it at this level.

3. Bria is a bit of a conundrum, but ultimately, as good as she was, a variant of my first answer…there was even more. And a different
coach found it.

4. Perhaps Kelly was a creation of the UConn system and propaganda that she herself bought into (a reverse of a current educational
surrounded by monster scorers) but tomuch in favor that if you don't expect much from your pupils, the students will respond
accordingly). Geno from the outset appreciated and advocated for her spunk, her defensive effort, her smarts, her team play, almost his
prototype of the perfect UConn team player (of course surrounded by monster scorers) but to date, those attributes haven't been nearly
enough for the achievement of a successful pro career.

5. Defense on Chiney and Alyssa. Although Steff did quiet down Chiney and Kelly Alyssa, one most always remember the help…perhaps
even better than the pros, perhaps much better. I still recall Mo picking a very frustrated Alyssa's pocket almost before she took a step on
a routine out-of-bounds entry after a bucket a year or two ago. But everyone knew that Alyssa is a stud of a guard/wing and stood an
excellent chance of thriving at the next level.

 

[lanieer]

As far as Kelly Faris it all comes down to her offense and aggressiveness. As far as her minutes she has played over 10 minutes in 8 games and in those games has shot 2 for 18. The last 6 games she has not made a basket. In the Atlanta game she played 12 minutes and missed two shots. In the Phoenix game she played 10 minutes and took one shot and missed. She is not going to have a career in the WNBA unless she makes shots. It's going to be even tough next year when Hightower comes back and the draft adds more elite players.

As far as Tiffany, sure she wasn't an All-American but she did what she had to do to help the team. Now she is a starter on of the most successful WNBA teams because she is extremely aggressive. She's always on the free throw line and a great free throw shooter.

Stefanie Dolson and Bria Hartley are going to be very successful WNBA players for a long time.

 

[JoePgh]

Kind of a pattern here.

Stef and Faris are both subs off the bench because there are already established vets on the team that play at their positions. Stef does get more minutes but is more in the grooming mode for the future.

Chiney (and Thomas to a lesser degree) have to play a lot of minutes and do well for the team to succeed RIGHT NOW.

Emma Meesemann is an "established vet"? I believe she is 22 years old, and this is her first or second year in the league. She did not play college basketball in the US, as far as I know.

I am reasonably sure that if Meesemann had played for Duke or A&M or Notre Dame, Stef would have outperformed her on the stat sheet and in intangibles as well.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I saw Dolson play earlier this season. I saw no evidence of her being out of shape. Looking at Dolson's stats I think she's having a very successful rookie season. She's a rookie playing behind a very good center in Meesemen. Although Meesemen has only 1 year in the WNBA, she's had plenty of experience in Europe.

IMO Faris will be out of the league next season. Her game doesn't fit the WNBA which is starving for offense.

 

[Scotter]

The best example supporting your theory is Charde Houston. Consistently in Geno's doghouse in college, Charde has had a solid pro career.

Charde had WNBA success only on a surface level. She filled the box score in the WNBA, but the same issues still existed with decision making and playing within a team structure. Her play didn't have a strong positive impact on her team's win/loss column.

 

[Beemer]

From what I have seen Kelly has absolutely no confidence in her offense- her first thought when she receives a pass seems to be to get rid of the ball like it is a live grenade. It is a vicious cycle with her- no confidence leads to poor shooting, poor shooting leads to no confidence. I hope she does work on her offense there's no reason she can't improve.

 

[Scotter]

As for the original post. Offensively Faris and Dolson were ideal players to play at UConn. The kind of players you can watch for 2 minutes and know that player fits UConn and her talents would be maximized there. Tiff and Bria were more physically talented players, but UConn was not a place that maximized their performance and it didn't really hide their limitations. Faris and Dolson controlled the UConn offense in a way that Tiff and Bria even though Tiff and Bria did produce big scoring numbers and found niches within the system.

Tiffany went to a very good team that fits her very well. She's free to use her athleticism and be a highly productive supporting player without having to make the same amount of offensive decisions as UConn required.

In Washington Bria and Dolson are in pretty good situation they just aren't surrounded by the same level of talent that Hayes is. Thibault is the perfect fit for Dolson that UConn was, but he's definitely 1 of the top fits for UConn players in the WNBA. I guess it would appear that Hartley has had the more successful rookie season since she is starting and scoring more points, but I would say Dolson has been the more effective player with just more limited opportunities both in terms of minutes and playing with guards whose strengths do not include feeding post players. On a per minute basis Dolson is out performing Hartley statistically. I think they have played very similarly to college in terms of impact.

Faris on the other hand is in a hell hole when it comes to maximizing what she does well. She's on a team lacking talent at the perimeter positions full of players with a lack of floor vision and passing ability in an offensive system without any of the hallmarks of what Faris does well offensively. Faris can make a good WNBA team win, but she is of no use to a bad WNBA team. This isn't an unusual concept. There are plenty of examples from the WNBA of players who were important players on NBA champions, but could make no impact on bad NBA teams. Sandwich her between 2 strong perimeter players in a structured passing based offense and she can help a team win. Which is why I had my fingers crossed she would slide all the way to Minnesota in the draft. but on a team like the Sun she's lost.

 

[JoePgh]

So, based on these thoughts, would you conclude that Diamond DeShields made the right decision not to come to UConn, since Geno's offense would have constrained her individual skills and would have expected things from her (such as passing and court vision) which are not her strengths and on which she perhaps does not wish to focus?

Also, re Charde Houston, I think her WNBA career has been somewhat predictable based on her college performance. She has been either brilliant on nearly useless, depending (apparently) on non-basketball factors affecting her mental state about which it is best not to speculate (besides which any such speculation would be censored on this board). Despite her all-star rookie year and intervals of high performance thereafter, Minnesota gave up on her and no one has ever made her a starter.

I think it would be inaccurate and unfair to say that Geno does not allow players with individual offensive talent to use it or to maximize it -- only that they would be expected to do so in the context of a team offense. I think Diana, Maya, and KML would all agree with that, and would believe in that approach as strongly as he does. But not all players with offensive star power would be happy with that, or suited for it.

 

[hoophuskee]

Tiff and Bria were more physically talented players, but UConn was not a place that maximized their performance

I thought the rest of your post was great. But don’t agree with the underlined at all.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/bria_hartley_723335.html

"Selected to the prestigious WBCA All-America Team in both 2012 and 2014, Hartley was the 15th Husky all-time and only the fourth UConn sophomore all-time to be honored on the squad ..."

And I'm still stunned today how Tiff wasn't a 1st round pick. Mind-boggling. She could always defend very well. Fantastic athlete. Won a ton. Very good handle and can score. I thought she showed all this at UCONN.

 

[DaddyChoc]

the league doesnt have enough teams nor spots on the teams to keep everyone... every year they're rotating "vets" out for new rookies, this is what make players like Charde & KG vulnerable... along with Kelly.

If Im a GM I wouldnt invest too much stock in a rookie unless it was one of the top 5-10

 

[Scotter]

Tiff and Bria were more physically talented players, but UConn was not a place that maximized their performance

I thought the rest of your post was great. But don’t agree with the underlined at all.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/bria_hartley_723335.html

"Selected to the prestigious WBCA All-America Team in both 2012 and 2014, Hartley was the 15th Husky all-time and only the fourth UConn sophomore all-time to be honored on the squad ..."

And I'm still stunned today how Tiff wasn't a 1st round pick. Mind-boggling. She could always defend very well. Fantastic athlete. Won a ton. Very good handle and can score. I thought she showed all this at UCONN.

So you thought Tiff and Bria played at the absolute maximum of their offensive ability at UConn? From what I saw they both fit UConn, but they could have produced even more in a system that played more to their offensive strengths. They both conformed to what was expected of them at UConn and what was good for the team even if it wasn't what they did best.

 

[hoophuskee]

So you thought Tiff and Bria played at the absolute maximum of their offensive ability at UConn? From what I saw they both fit UConn, but they could have produced even more in a system that played more to their offensive strengths. They both conformed to what was expected of them at UConn and what was good for the team even if it wasn't what they did best.

It all depends by what you mean by more. "More" points- certainly. Bria and Tiffany aren't going to be super WNBA players. So how many points do they need which would then be considered "maximized?"

I thought for Bria she got a/a status - she couldn't have achived any more than that. And in WNBA - she's not going to be Skylar or Sims. She's a very good player but not a great player. That can't be hidden.

With Tiffany --the WNBA scouts were nuts. Tiffany two straight years was 2nd leading scorer from one of the premiere teams in the nation. Her flaw imo has been her shooting accuracy nor a great passer. That hasn't changed in the WNBA. I'm still stunned how the WNBA scouts couldn't see she could break her opponent down off the dribble.

 

[DaddyChoc]

who is a "glue player" in the WBNA like Kelly was in UConn's system?

 

[Striper69]

Emma Meesemann is an "established vet"? I believe she is 22 years old, and this is her first or second year in the league. She did not play college basketball in the US, as far as I know.

I am reasonably sure that if Meesemann had played for Duke or A&M or Notre Dame, Stef would have outperformed her on the stat sheet and in intangibles as well.

I was thinking more that Dolson subs for Kia Vaughan. Meeseman plays more like a power foward. Kia and Stef play more like true centers. Curry plays like a small foward.

 

[Striper69]

Tiff and Bria were more physically talented players, but UConn was not a place that maximized their performance

I thought the rest of your post was great. But don’t agree with the underlined at all.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/bria_hartley_723335.html

"Selected to the prestigious WBCA All-America Team in both 2012 and 2014, Hartley was the 15th Husky all-time and only the fourth UConn sophomore all-time to be honored on the squad ..."

And I'm still stunned today how Tiff wasn't a 1st round pick. Mind-boggling. She could always defend very well. Fantastic athlete. Won a ton. Very good handle and can score. I thought she showed all this at UCONN.

Yeah, I felt like UCONN maximized what Dolson and Hartley do while keeping them grounded in team play.

 

[JoePgh]

who is a "glue player" in the WBNA like Kelly was in UConn's system?

I think Kelsey Griffin is a perfect example of this, as exemplified by her game yesterday. She really is the UConn Kelly Faris transplanted to the WNBA. Of course, this is her 4th or 5th season, and it took her a while to get to that point -- but still her first two seasons were more impressive than Kelly's have been. But perhaps that indicates that Kelly can get there also.