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A Suggestion for the NCAA Tournament

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DobbsRover2

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Over the years there have been many instances of teams achieving to high levels but being left out of a chance for a championship. The Baltimore Colts finished 11-1-1 one year but their record wasn't good enough for the playoffs. The SF Giants won 103 games and didn't make the playoffs. A NY girls cross country team finished a season as the top ranked team in the nation but wasn't considered good enough to go to its state championship meet.

The WCBB tourney though has slots for 64 teams, and it's really no injustice to ask a team to at least be good enough to win half the games in their conference to go to the NCAAs. In the end, it may help a lot of P5 teams to put some fire under their tails and make them put more effort to pulling themselves out of mediocrity. Rewarding teams for finishing 7-9 sends the wrong message.

During the last 5 years, only 4 teams with losing conference records have won at-large bids to the NCAAs, and only 1 won any games. Hopefully they will remain scarce.
 

diggerfoot

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When a discussion is held one can either try to arrived at shared meaning, or one can try to "win." I conceded that my third goal phrasing was incomplete rather than "doesn't make sense." Your response to that concession, along with your use of hyperbole and much of your other responses in both posts, indicate to me you are a "win" person. To the extent I might seem thin-skinned regarding hyperbole I assure you I don't take things people write on the Internet personally, but hyperbole is a pretty good indicator of a person's goal in the discussion. If I point it out and people refrain from further hyperbole, well, perhaps there's a chance at shared meaning. I normally don't care to further discussions with "win" folks because shared meaning is never the destination, to them discussions are automatically debates to be won or lost, but let's see where this last round goes.

I stated there are three goals. Let's truncate the third goal to "entertain" to avoid future discussion on that point. Your position is that there really is a fourth goal, to draft the best performing teams available after all the conference representation is completed. This is a goal independent from the first, to crown a champion, because we know from history that the champion is not going to come from what we might call the bubble teams. If a 7-9 conference team fails to win their conference tournament we know they don't have what it takes to be champion. Including them in the tournament rounds out the field of 64 with the leftover "best performing" teams that yet will never win the championship.

I will concede that is an existing fourth goal that I omitted. My point in emphasizing much fewer teams are needed to determine the eventual champion than are used indicates that this goal is unnecessary for the first goal, but my argument would have been made stronger, or perhaps clearer, if I acknowledged such a fourth goal in order to emphasize that it does little to enhance the other three. To attempt to make my argument perfectly clear I would then say that fourth goal should be replaced by a different one: for those remaining teams whose real function is to just "complete the field" rather than to "compete for a championship," such a privilege only will be bestowed on teams without losing records in or out of conferences, that a measure of success within one's respective conference, no more arbitrary than the measures used for overall performance, must be met in order to gain that privilege.

I take it you are in full support of the "fourth goal" as it now stands. I concede that is as it theoretically stands but I am in full support of the change. As others have pointed out we are only talking about, at best, a couple of teams each year affected by the difference. We also are talking about swapping a couple teams where neither would go ten for ten against the other in a head-to-head. In fact, one reason I'm for the change is I happen to think overall measures of performance are indeed more arbitrary than relative measures of success. If we disagree because you think "bubble teams" do stand a chance of fulfilling the first goal, competing for a championship, I would counter that the empirical evidence weighs heavily against you. If we disagree because you think the "privilege" of rounding out the field with bubble teams should be determined by overall measures of performance, rather than relative measures of success, those are both legitimate opinions to be held and there really is no debate to be won or lost.
 
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What does playing a bad OOC schedule have to do with a rule that states you have to have a non-losing conference record to have a shot at making the NCAAs? Obviously nothing. If anything, playing a good OOC might make a team more likely of being prepared to win in the conference.

Nothing. But it does have something to do with the proposed rule in the original post that teams also have to have a non-losing record out-of-conference ("absolutely none with losing records outside their conferences").

For example, let's say Marist decided to play a very hard ooc schedule and went 4-6. But then they went 20-0 in league, then won their first two MAAC playoff games, but then got upset in the Finals. Under the proposed rule, they would be ineligible for the tournament. Losing ooc record. Never mind that they went 24-6 for the regular season and 26-7 overall. Never mind that they could be a top 25 RPI (or Sagarin) team. Declaring them ineligible in favor of a team with a worse record and a worse ranking would make no sense.
 
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DobbsRover2

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Ah, didn't see that. Absolutely right, there, and probably a good example of what you're talking about would be more a team like Central Michigan rather than Marist, who I cannot remember ever having a losing OOC record, partially because few P5 teams want to play them. But CMU (RPI 31, FWIW) had a beastly OOC that included ND, Duke, KY, Purdue, Marquette, Kansas, South Dakota State, and Dayton (twice), and finished 4-8 OOC before going now 16-1 in the Mid-American. They probably will have to win the conference tourney to get a bid anyway, but they should not be shut out of consideration based on the OOC record.

For the P5 majors, the OOC record is not a factor, since even the worst of them usually rack up at least an even OOC record (only 5-25 Arizona didn't), but it is I suppose possible that a decent P5 could have early injuries and a tougher OOC schedule and go 6-7 and then blast to a 11-5 conference record, and they should not be excluded.
 
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One reason I used Marist as an example - and it could be any MAAC school - is that their league has 20 conference games. Thus teams may have as few as 9 ooc games. If any of them happened to schedule a bunch of tough teams, it would be fairly easy for even a strong team to go 4-5 and thus be excluded by the proposed rule.
 

DobbsRover2

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Yeah, it's going to be very rare for any mid-major as schedules are currently drawn up having a losing OOC and still being considered for the tourney. Even CMU this year is only #65 in Sagarin and will not get a bid if past years are any indicator. In most years the "no losing record" rule whether for OOC or conference schedules is not going to affect more than a few teams that have a shot at a bid, and almost all of those would be P5 teams. This year is a little unusual though, and probably the breakup of the Big East is indeed the reason, so maybe a new era of brackets has begun.
 
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Yes it would be fairly rare. But why would anyone want a rule that even occasionally would keep a top team out of the tournament?
 
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