1 and dones win championships but 1 and done culture doesn't | The Boneyard

1 and dones win championships but 1 and done culture doesn't

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What I mean by this is you can't just throw a kid or kids a bag and just expect a championship. You need a veteran coach as well as veteran players. Your one and done star or stars needs to get molded into a man by March, veterans help your freshman mature fast by the time March rolls around.

Even the Cuse team in 2003 had veterans on that team, so it wasn't just Melo, Warwick and McNamara.

How much better is Castle now that he played with 5th year seniors like Cam and Tristen, and went through a year under Hurley. I get being thrown a biag and being treated like the messiah is enticing to a kid and his parents. As a 1 and done wouldn't you want to play a year learning from a coach like Hurley and 5th year seniors to help prepare for NBA life. You are getting NIL money btw.

I look at the Duke situation and these kids felt the pressure against a veteran team even Cooper Flagg did. Remember Lassan Kromah a 5th year senior stealing the Harrison twins lunch.

Just looking at the women's side even Stewie was around veterans as a freshman, Sarah Strong around 5th year seniors. You mature immensely by March when your around a veteran coach and veteran players.
 
What I mean by this is you can't just throw a kid or kids a bag and just expect a championship. You need a veteran coach as well as veteran players. Your one and done star or stars needs to get molded into a man by March, veterans help your freshman mature fast by the time March rolls around.

Even the Cuse team in 2003 had veterans on that team, so it wasn't just Melo, Warwick and McNamara.

How much better is Castle now that he played with 5th year seniors like Cam and Tristen, and went through a year under Hurley. I get being thrown a biag and being treated like the messiah is enticing to a kid and his parents. As a 1 and done wouldn't you want to play a year learning from a coach like Hurley and 5th year seniors to help prepare for NBA life. You are getting NIL money btw.

I look at the Duke situation and these kids felt the pressure against a veteran team even Cooper Flagg did. Remember Lassan Kromah a 5th year senior stealing the Harrison twins lunch.

Just looking at the women's side even Stewie was around veterans as a freshman, Sarah Strong around 5th year seniors. You mature immensely by March when your around a veteran coach and veteran players.

Roster construction from 2019 has more in common with roster construction in the 70's than it does with roster construction today. Today's game is won by grown men with a few younger superior athletes sprinkled in. Many of the top programs barely bother with recruiting anymore.
 
Duke's veteran players like 5th year Sion James and 3rd year Tyrese Proctor were the ones mainly wilting down the stretch
Yep, arguably have one of your best passers inbounding the ball (KK or Flagg) and don't take the air out of the ball when you've been dominating all game on offense. Can't evaluate their process just based on this random outcome, 9/10 times Dook wins that game.

However, we've seen the ill-advised just give it to your go-to-guy on last play strategy fail before for Dook and Scheyer's mentor!
 
Duke had 3 freshman starters. The lesson here is that one team can have a bunch of one and dones and compete for a title if they all choose the same school.

There aren't that many to go around. We had one and he was a pretty important cog. Last year we had one plus a 2 and done and 2 portal guys.

You just need guys who can create mismatches without being significant liabilities in other areas.

We didn't have enough of those guys on the floor this year and had some liabilities. Still a top 20 team imo.
 
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Admittedly, I don't think relying on three freshman to be your three best players is a formula for success in most cases but with these three, that didn't look like a roster construction issue to me. That looked like a coaching issue combined with some unfortunate miscues that all college payers make, not just freshman.
 
The Squid perfected this model of "close but no cigar" with 5* NBA Lotto Picks years ago.

Coach K adopted it in his last few pre-retirement years.

Let's hope Scheyer keeps the momentum going on this model and middling outcome for years to come.
 
This isn't to say veterans can't make mistakes and it also doesn't mean one and done culture can't win a championship, but I would say your odds are better with the old school culture than the one and done culture.
 
What I mean by this is you can't just throw a kid or kids a bag and just expect a championship. You need a veteran coach as well as veteran players. Your one and done star or stars needs to get molded into a man by March, veterans help your freshman mature fast by the time March rolls around.

Even the Cuse team in 2003 had veterans on that team, so it wasn't just Melo, Warwick and McNamara.

How much better is Castle now that he played with 5th year seniors like Cam and Tristen, and went through a year under Hurley. I get being thrown a biag and being treated like the messiah is enticing to a kid and his parents. As a 1 and done wouldn't you want to play a year learning from a coach like Hurley and 5th year seniors to help prepare for NBA life. You are getting NIL money btw.

I look at the Duke situation and these kids felt the pressure against a veteran team even Cooper Flagg did. Remember Lassan Kromah a 5th year senior stealing the Harrison twins lunch.

Just looking at the women's side even Stewie was around veterans as a freshman, Sarah Strong around 5th year seniors. You mature immensely by March when your around a veteran coach and veteran players.

Contrary to your thread title but consistent with your point, 1ADs very rarely win championships. You can count them on one hand.

You can't compare women's to men's, but on the men's side I definitely agree that a roster containing a mix of studs and more modestly rated vets is the key to success. That was the recipe for all of our pre-portal titles.
 
This isn't to say veterans can't make mistakes and it also doesn't mean one and done culture can't win a championship, but I would say your odds are better with the old school culture than the one and done culture.
I guess this is as good as any place for me to jump in. I was actually thinking about this topic over the past few days and have discussed similar Topic in the past.

I've witnessed two different dynamics where young inexperienced players, particularly freshmen, can shoot you in the ass somewhere along the way to the Final Four.

One relates to the importance of having experienced guards and or players that have the ball in their hands during winning time that know how to make winning plays without getting their mind all jumbled due to the pressure and magnitude of the moment.

The other is having one-and-done freshman, usually guards that have the ball in their hands throughout most of the game, who want to impress the NBA coaches and scouts, and can't help but keep on shooting and missing, eventually shooting their team right out of the tournament. You often see that in some of the earlier rounds were they lose even though they're a higher seed.

With Dook's Final-4 loss the other night, the young players actually performed pretty well throughout most of the tournament, but failed to close out their game against Houston, where the moment was simply too big for them and the more experienced players simply weren't able to lead the team through those high pressure winning time possessions.

If my memory serves me, the Michigan fab five way back in the day completely imploded at the end of the game, but they did make it to that NCAA Final game.

I remember UConn beating one of Calipari's Kentucky teams where their highly touted freshman point guard completely shot them right out of that game.

As pointed out, even upperclassmen who had been balling most of the season often can't handle high pressure moments in a win-or-go-home tournament. It's not just closing out games, but handling situations when an opponent makes a run to overtake the lead or pull away during a close game. We've been fortunate to have many ballers who handled those situations such as Khalid El Amin, Ricky Moore, Kemba, Bazz, Newton, Cam, to name a few.

Note that our Husky Women's team demonstrated this during their NC run that netted them NC #12, where their experienced leaders and even their freshman star, all excelled during their high pressure and winning time moments.

Conversely, the key players on our men's team, both experienced (Karaban) and young (McNeeley & Ball) simply didn't handle the magnitude of the game, specifically making open and lightly contested shot, and failing late in the game with the lead to score and make the stops needed to advance past UF. Though, I'd be remiss to not mention that they arguably had their best defensive game of the year, sans the last few minutes of the game. I'm still not sure why they missed so many open looks. If they simply had a middling type of shooting game they win that by double digits. As flawed as they were, they had the talent to advance deep into the tourney, but they relied heavily on the freshman, McNeeley, who just didn't have enough experience to handle the magnitude of a win-or-go-home game against a #1 seed, while UF's star 4 yr PG, Walter Clayton Jr, so far, has carried the Gators to the championship game.

Bottom line, there are just very few NCAA Men's championship teams that were led by a freshman PG, or players who had the ball in their hands, that were relied on to win games for them.

As much talent the staff has brought in for next year, we have to hope that Silas Demary Jr and the young and returning players have the skill and mental toughness to handle those high magnitude moments. I'd like to see them add a second point or combo guard that has the skill and mental toughness to hold their own since Demary won't be able to play 40 minutes. It's not going to be easy to land that type of player, but hopefully the staff can spin their magic and land a solid backup lead guard. Good thing they didn't bring in a freshman to fill the lead guard position, though Adams might see some backup time at the 1.
 
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Duke- Kyrie, Seth Curry, Singler, Plumlees, Zion, RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Derek Lively, Wendell Carter Jr., Mark Williams, Filipowski, Cooper Flagg, Khaman Maluach, Kon Knueppel and nothing to show for it.
 
Duke- Kyrie, Seth Curry, Singler, Plumlees, Zion, RJ Barrett, Cam Reddish, Brandon Ingram, Jayson Tatum, Derek Lively, Wendell Carter Jr., Mark Williams, Filipowski, Cooper Flagg, Khaman Maluach, Kon Knueppel and nothing to show for it.
singler and all the plumless have nattys.
 
I guess this is as good as any place for me to jump in. I was actually thinking about this topic over the past few days and have discussed similar Topic in the past.

I've witnessed two different dynamics where young inexperienced players, particularly freshmen, can shoot you in the ass somewhere along the way to the Final Four.

One relates to the importance of having experienced guards and or players that have the ball in their hands during winning time that know how to make winning plays without getting their mind all jumbled due to the pressure and magnitude of the moment.

The other is having one-and-done freshman, usually guards that have the ball in their hands throughout most of the game, who want to impress the NBA coaches and scouts, and can't help but keep on shooting and missing, eventually shooting their team right out of the tournament. You often see that in some of the earlier rounds were they lose even though they're a higher seed.

With Dook's Final-4 loss the other night, the young players actually performed pretty well throughout most of the tournament, but failed to close out their game against Houston, where the moment was simply too big for them and the more experienced players simply weren't able to lead the team through those high pressure winning time possessions.

If my memory serves me, the Michigan fab five way back in the day completely imploded at the end of the game, but they did make it to that NCAA Final game.

I remember UConn beating one of Calipari's Kentucky teams where their highly touted freshman point guard completely shot them right out of that game.

As pointed out, even upperclassmen who had been balling most of the season often can't handle high pressure moments in a win-or-go-home tournament. It's not just closing out games, but handling situations when an opponent makes a run to overtake the lead or pull away during a close game. We've been fortunate to have many ballers who handled those situations such as Khalid El Amin, Ricky Moore, Kemba, Bazz, Newton, Cam, to name a few.

Note that our Husky Women's team demonstrated this during their NC run that netted them NC #12, where their experienced leaders and even their freshman star, all excelled during their high pressure and winning time moments.

Conversely, the key players on our men's team, both experienced (Karaban) and young (McNeeley & Ball) simply didn't handle the magnitude of the game, specifically making open and lightly contested shot, and failing late in the game with the lead to score and make the stops needed to advance past UF. Though, I'd be remiss to not mention that they arguably had their best defensive game of the year, sans the last few minutes of the game. I'm still not sure why they missed so many open looks. If they simply had a middling type of shooting game they win that by double digits. As flawed as they were, they had the talent to advance deep into the tourney, but they relied heavily on the freshman, McNeeley, who just didn't have enough experience to handle the magnitude of a win-or-go-home game against a #1 seed, while UF's star 4 yr PG, Walter Clayton Jr, so far, has carried the Gators to the championship game.

Bottom line, there are just very few NCAA Men's championship teams that were led by a freshman PG, or players who had the ball in their hands, that were relied on to win games for them.

As much talent the staff has brought in for next year, we have to hope that Silas Demary Jr and the young and returning players have the skill and mental toughness to handle those high magnitude moments. I'd like to see them add a second point or combo guard that has the skill and mental toughness to hold their own since Demary won't be able to play 40 minutes. It's not going to be easy to land that type of player, but hopefully the staff can spin their magic and land a solid backup lead guard. Good thing they didn't bring in a freshman to fill the lead guard position, though Adams might see some backup time at the 1.
So we have had 3 one and dones in our history. Just going back in our history the guys who were 1 and done caliber

Caron-was our best player, with role players from the 99 team a rebuild year

Charlie-coming off the bench, team was so loaded Calhoun could afford to pull him if he wanted.

Rudy- was our star player, got outplayed by Julius Hodge, Hodge had experience on him but turns out this is who Rudy was. Still had a solid career and great ambassador for the program.

Lamb- Was our 2nd star by March, but was brought along slowly

Donovan- Dominant in his role

The one and dones

Drummond- A very late add, averaged nearly a double double in BE play, problem was Oriakihi having an issue with JC, not to mention the pg situation, and the upcoming tourney ban and a multitude of other distractions threw the entire season off

Already mentioned Castle and you mentioned McNeeley.
 
What I mean by this is you can't just throw a kid or kids a bag and just expect a championship. You need a veteran coach as well as veteran players. Your one and done star or stars needs to get molded into a man by March, veterans help your freshman mature fast by the time March rolls around.

Even the Cuse team in 2003 had veterans on that team, so it wasn't just Melo, Warwick and McNamara.

How much better is Castle now that he played with 5th year seniors like Cam and Tristen, and went through a year under Hurley. I get being thrown a biag and being treated like the messiah is enticing to a kid and his parents. As a 1 and done wouldn't you want to play a year learning from a coach like Hurley and 5th year seniors to help prepare for NBA life. You are getting NIL money btw.

I look at the Duke situation and these kids felt the pressure against a veteran team even Cooper Flagg did. Remember Lassan Kromah a 5th year senior stealing the Harrison twins lunch.

Just looking at the women's side even Stewie was around veterans as a freshman, Sarah Strong around 5th year seniors. You mature immensely by March when your around a veteran coach and veteran players.
Youre right you can win with 1nDs but not if you want to win consistenly. Calipari is a perfect example of this. Who has gotten more 1nDs than him over the last 15-20 years? How many titles does he have? 1. All these years later, all these NBA players and he still trails Jim Calhoun, Danny Hurley and is tied with Kevin Ollie in national titles. Seriously, think about that for a minute. In a 15 year span Uconn has 3 coaches win titles and two of them have multiple titles. 15 years!!
 
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Youre right you can win with 1nDs but not if you want to win consistenly. Calipari is a perfect example of this. Who has gotten more 1nDs than him over the last 15-20 years? How many titles does he have? 1. All these years later, all these NBA players and he still trails Jim Calhoun, Danny Hurley and is tied with Kevin Ollie in national titles. Seriously, think about that for a minute. In a 15 year span Uconn has 3 coaches win titles and two of them have multiple titles. 15 years!!
tbf, caliperi is also objectively not a good coach
 
Duke had 3 freshman starters. The lesson here is that one team can have a bunch of one and dones and compete for a title if they all choose the same school.

There aren't that many to go around. We had one and he was a pretty important cog. Last year we had one plus a 2 and done and 2 portal guys.

You just need guys who can create mismatches without being significant liabilities in other areas.

We didn't have enough of those guys on the floor this year and had some liabilities. Still a top 20 team imo.
So easy to say this after the game - Duke was the better team and would have won the majority of 10 games. And likely have gone on the beat Florida.

Yes the youth and ACC slate may have hurt them in a close game.

Agree that in the large majority of cases the OAD format is not going to win unless it includes generational talent like Flagg. The foundation of your team should be experienced and mature upperclassmen, and supplemented with great underclassmen.
 
So easy to say this after the game - Duke was the better team and would have won the majority of 10 games. And likely have gone on the beat Florida.

Yes the youth and ACC slate may have hurt them in a close game.

Agree that in the large majority of cases the OAD format is not going to win unless it includes generational talent like Flagg. The foundation of your team should be experienced and mature upperclassmen, and supplemented with great underclassmen.

fast forward to the NCAA making Final Four matches two out of three.
 
until the nba expands, more and more mcdonalds all-americans will be staying multiple years in college. The nba talent level is better than ever, with older players playing longer and more international players on rosters....combine that with NIL in college and 5 star players should no longer be viewed as one and dones.
 
So easy to say this after the game - Duke was the better team and would have won the majority of 10 games. And likely have gone on the beat Florida.

Yes the youth and ACC slate may have hurt them in a close game.

Agree that in the large majority of cases the OAD format is not going to win unless it includes generational talent like Flagg. The foundation of your team should be experienced and mature upperclassmen, and supplemented with great underclassmen.
Glad to see you're still defending Duke
 
As opposed to what - being like all the tribal dorks here insecure about Uconn and finding any angle to feel better as a fan? My lord it's nauseatingly fansecure. The amount of Uconn fans that who's endorphins rocket to defend the program is nuts - we have a top 3-4 program, great staff, what more do you need? My concern was economics and now we're hearing the BE will be in the best spot from a rev share standpoint, which I didn't see coming. Well timed public announcement as you can now see how that perception is impacting the portal with the BE getting some real players.

I don't like Duke, love that they lost, but can call them how I see them without all the bias.

They were the most talented team - had the best player, young. I've been wondering all year if Scheyer had a template that could work, because there is something to learn there while also hoping Duke doesn't hold some perch that I'd rather not see. I'm glad it didn't work and only think it can work if one of those frosh is Flagg-esque.
Glad to see you're still defending Duke
 
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As opposed to what - being like all the tribal dorks here insecure about Uconn and finding any angle to feel better as a fan? My lord it's nauseatingly fansecure. The amount of Uconn fans that who's endorphins rocket to defend the program is nuts - we have a top 3-4 program, great staff, what more do you need? My concern was economics and now we're hearing the BE will be in the best spot from a rev share standpoint, which I didn't see coming. Well timed public announcement as you can now see how that perception is impacting the portal with the BE getting some real players.

I don't like Duke, love that they lost, but can call them how I see them without all the bias.

They were the most talented team - had the best player, young. I've been wondering all year if Scheyer had a template that could work, because there is something to learn there while also hoping Duke doesn't hold some perch that I'd rather not see. I'm glad it didn't work and only think it can work if one of those frosh is Flagg-esque.
Hey, I was upset when my team lost to Florida in the second round. It makes sense you'd be sad, now, too
 
Hey, I was upset when my team lost to Florida in the second round. It makes sense you'd be sad, now, too
LOL - I appreciate the sarcasm. Don't underestimate my fanhood because I don't tongue bath them from every angle possible.
 
This is a strange kind of thread. Duke was really good this year. Very good argument for them as the best team in the country. They lost in the Final Four. Happens all the time. I don't think you can draw much of a lesson on what wins championships. If Flagg makes that jumper is the lesson we learned a completely different one?

The only important thing to remember is Duke lost.
 
This is a strange kind of thread. Duke was really good this year. Very good argument for them as the best team in the country. They lost in the Final Four. Happens all the time. I don't think you can draw much of a lesson on what wins championships. If Flagg makes that jumper is the lesson we learned a completely different one?

The only important thing to remember is Duke lost.
Almost doesn’t count, Duke was very good but they were a front running team all year. The game didn’t come down to 1 play, Houston outplayed them for most of the game Houston shot themselves in the foot in the first half. Also the 10 minute scoring draught then the ending with Houston’s 9-0 run, Duke was reliant on Flagg saving them at the end. Good for them they got to the FF though but you got Flagg to win number 6.
 
Not to toot my own, but…

Well, yeah. I’m tooting away. Toot toot. I admit I was kind of hopeful this would be true, but didn’t necessarily believe it. But down the stretch of a close game, Duke played like a team that had just met. And their veterans felt too much pressure and couldn’t make it easier on the freshmen.

The Duke question
 
Almost doesn’t count, Duke was very good but they were a front running team all year. The game didn’t come down to 1 play, Houston outplayed them for most of the game Houston shot themselves in the foot in the first half. Also the 10 minute scoring draught then the ending with Houston’s 9-0 run, Duke was reliant on Flagg saving them at the end. Good for them they got to the FF though but you got Flagg to win number 6.

Wild to say it doesn't count but okay. It's also a bit strange to say Houston outplayed them for most of the game in a game that Duke led most of the way. I guess you addressed that by saying Houston "shot themselves in the foot" which I guess also must not count.
 
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