WKU making a "hard push" for Tremont Waters

[UConnDan97]

A lot of those guys are not here any longer because KO could not sell them on staying. There are a lot of guys who are not here - grad transfer types, who he theoretically could have spent as much time recruiting as anybody else - because KO could not sell them on stepping into immediate roles.

There are lot of things that you can back KO on. His salesmanship is not one of them at this point in time. Everything about the current situation screams, in big bloody letters, that kids don't want to play for him.

So it's that he couldn't "sell them", and not because he told one or more of them that their defense wasn't good enough and that they needed to work harder to earn minutes, right? Yup. It's already well documented on this board that Vance's dad was worked up about criticism over his son's D. It's already well documented on this board that Durham was upset about not getting more time on the court. It's already well documented on this board that Enoch was criticized for his defense as well. But keep banging the drum, I guess...

 

[UCFan1513]

I'll take you at your word because I respect you as a poster. What I'll ask you is what you think changed between now and last year in terms of KO's ability to sell himself and UConn better? Because last year, he seemed to be fine with landing the #8 ranked class in all of the nation. In terms of individual players, he landed the #32, #46, #79, #142, and #230 based on 247 composite scores.

I'll tell you what I think the difference was this year vs. last year: that we weren't in on as many kids as early as others because we weren't expecting the defections at the end of the year, including MAL (#38 of 2017). It had nothing to do with his ability to sell himself or this university, in my opinion. Nor does it have anything to do with him being on some hot seat. And I think that the 2018 class will eventually prove me right...

If everything hadn't happened with Zach Brown, we very well may have been going into next year with a top 20 5* center, MAL, and then Polley and Carlton, maybe one other. That is a vastly different look than what we have now, not that I'm not hopeful for the upside in the current recruits and think they can do a good job (i.e. Cobb and Whaley) but they are less of sure things. Guess Brown is a major hypothetical though since he has had deep rooted problems for a while. Not worth speculating I guess, but would have possibly been a much different look going into next year.

 

[UConnDan97]

If everything hadn't happened with Zach Brown, we very well may have been going into next year with a top 20 5* center, MAL, and then Polley and Carlton, maybe one other. That is a vastly different look than what we have now, not that I'm not hopeful for the upside in the current recruits and think they can do a good job (i.e. Cobb and Whaley) but they are less of sure things. Guess Brown is a major hypothetical though since he has had deep rooted problems for a while. Not worth speculating I guess, but would have possibly been a much different look going into next year.

Let's not even focus on the near-misses or defections or woulda shoulda coulda. Let's focus on what we actually have next year with Ollie's "lack of recruiting" (ESPN ratings):

PG: Alterique Gilbert (#32, 4-star / 6th position, 2016)
SG: Jalen Adams (#25, 4-star / 5th position, 2015)
SF: Terry Larrier (#43, 4-star / 12th position, 2014)
PF: Mamadou Diarra (#93, 4-star / 23rd position, 2016)
C: Josh Carlton (#145, 4-star / 28th position, 2017)

Bench: Tyler Polley (#113, 4-star / 33 position, 2017), Christian Vital (#230, 3-star / 41 position, 2016), Isaiah Whaley (NR, 3-star / 58th position, 2017), Eric Cobb (#342, 4-star / 21 position, 2015), Antwoine Anderson (NR, 2013).

So we have a bunch of 4-star players with some 3-star players to fill the bench. Our entire starting 5 is top 150 players. And all of that is even after having lost 4 players that were also top 150. The idea that he cannot recruit is just false...

 

[AntG168]

Can we at least see how the 2018 recruiting cycle shakes out before we declare kids dont want to play for KO? A kids decision to attend a school is a lot more complicated than some of you want to believe. Sid wilson loved the coaching staff but chose st johns. KO was a pretty good salesman when he got bazz and crew to stay, when he brung in a top ten recruiting class, or when he convinced dham to travel across the country to play for him. We start winning again and kids will start coming again. KO doesnt have to sell anything better, winning cures all

 

[MSGSeven]

Let's not even focus on the near-misses or defections or woulda shoulda coulda. Let's focus on what we actually have next year with Ollie's "lack of recruiting" (ESPN ratings):

PG: Alterique Gilbert (#32, 4-star / 6th position, 2016)
SG: Jalen Adams (#25, 4-star / 5th position, 2015)
SF: Terry Larrier (#43, 4-star / 12th position, 2014)
PF: Mamadou Diarra (#93, 4-star / 23rd position, 2016)
C: Josh Carlton (#145, 4-star / 28th position, 2017)

Bench: Tyler Polley (#113, 4-star / 33 position, 2017), Christian Vital (#230, 3-star / 41 position, 2016), Isaiah Whaley (NR, 3-star / 58th position, 2017), Eric Cobb (#342, 4-star / 21 position, 2015), Antwoine Anderson (NR, 2013).

So we have a bunch of 4-star players with some 3-star players to fill the bench. Our entire starting 5 is top 150 players. And all of that is even after having lost 4 players that were also top 150. The idea that he cannot recruit is just false...

Would've liked to get Waters cause I love his game and he's a four year player but he def wasn't a need. We have plenty of talented guards for next year. Sid was a tough miss and stung a little cause we were in it till the end but when the dust settles I like our roster as it stands. I think it's comparable to 2014 having three very talented players in Adams, Gilbert and Larrier. Obviously not as experienced of a group and health issues are a concern but still very talented. I love Vital and Anderson coming off the bench they'll provide both scoring and toughness. I also think KO will add one or two more players before it's all said and done. The front court is a question mark with the inexperience but let's hope guys like Cobb and Carlton surprise cause there's def potential with those two and our history especially the 2014 team has proven we don't need a very talented frontcourt to win.

 

[gtcam]

A lot of those guys are not here any longer because KO could not sell them on staying. There are a lot of guys who are not here - grad transfer types, who he theoretically could have spent as much time recruiting as anybody else - because KO could not sell them on stepping into immediate roles.

There are lot of things that you can back KO on. His salesmanship is not one of them at this point in time. Everything about the current situation screams, in big bloody letters, that kids don't want to play for him.

I would really like to know how you know, without an apparent reason of doubt, your claim that KO could not sell kids on staying and/or KO could not sell the grad xfers on stepping into immediate roles
What active part do you play during these conversations? Are you recording them, are you KOs stenographer or are you the ADs/athletic departments exit interview representative?
If you are active in one of these roles, great - now I may believe these accusations
If not, why do some of you try to portray personal speculation into assertive facts?
KO is definitely not without flaws but to say kids do not want to play for him is BS - isolated, yes, but all kids don't want to play for him - give me a break

 

[gtcam]

Nailed it.

What is he going to sell them on exactly as it relates to his coaching directly? lots of schools have nice facilities and varying degrees of proud histories (not many like ours of course).

The recruit/ transfer is committing to the coach. And KO has a tough sell on that front at the moment.

Our on court performance has been mediocre to sub par for the majority of his time. Player development has been sub par at best and mostly non existent at worst. Our offense is slow and boring and not one that would appeal to recruits. He hasn't sent a single one of his recruits to the NBA since he became HC ( d ham is in the d league and I'm not counting anyone from JC).

That's a bleak picture. Certainly not the reality that I would like.

His main selling point is the Ncaa title. Nothing to sneeze at but its not enough to overcome all those other things.

You say - The recruit/ transfer is committing to the coach. I disagree - in these days its the coach who is committing to the kid with oversell and promises.
You think Ball went to UCLA because of the coach? Are you kidding? You think Jackson went to KU because of the coach? Do you think all those 5 star players go to Lexington because they love and are committed to the Squid?
These players go where they can get the most exposure and there is a spot open for them to start and leave for the league
A single one of KO's recruits hasn't gone to the league? - I think if you look back you will see that KO had a lot to do with getting those guys who made it to the league into a UConn uniform and had a lot to do with their development. Bazz, Boatright, Lamb to name some went to KO when they felt that JC was on their backs and he worked with them - developed them.
His main selling point should include the NCAA title, not 1 but 4 and KO had a hand in most of them.
There have been several reasons why recruitment has been hurt, I'm not going to echo them - many are beyond KOs control.
You see the picture as bleak - that's your thing and that's fine

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

You say - The recruit/ transfer is committing to the coach. I disagree - in these days its the coach who is committing to the kid with oversell and promises.
You think Ball went to UCLA because of the coach? Are you kidding? You think Jackson went to KU because of the coach? Do you think all those 5 star players go to Lexington because they love and are committed to the Squid?
These players go where they can get the most exposure and there is a spot open for them to start and leave for the league
A single one of KO's recruits hasn't gone to the league? - I think if you look back you will see that KO had a lot to do with getting those guys who made it to the league into a UConn uniform and had a lot to do with their development. Bazz, Boatright, Lamb to name some went to KO when they felt that JC was on their backs and he worked with them - developed them.
His main selling point should include the NCAA title, not 1 but 4 and KO had a hand in most of them.
There have been several reasons why recruitment has been hurt, I'm not going to echo them - many are beyond KOs control.
You see the picture as bleak - that's your thing and that's fine

Are you really arguing this? Honestly?

As I said in my initial post, lots of schools have nice facilities, proud histories, adoring fan bases etc. A big differentiating factor is the coach. You have to be completely clueless to believe otherwise.

And of course KO played a part in those guys you mentioned, but nobody knows how much. You think its very hard for opposing coaches to undercut that argument by mentioning to a recruit that the guy at the end of the bench had maybe the best track record of getting guys to the NBA of any coach ever? And to simply tell them it was all JC and not KO?

There's no way to disprove this (right or wrong). And until KO starts putting his own recruits and players to the league he cant disprove it.

As I said, we have a lot to offer as a program. But so do a lot of other schools. So you tell me what KO's sales pitch is then. Go ahead I want to hear it. Tell me why I'm wrong about those things that I listed (bad offense, lack of nba track record, minimal player development).

I don't choose to see the picture as bleak. I am simply reacting to the reality as things stand. Which to me, is a lot better way of reaching a conclusion than simply blind faith.

 

[BlueMAB]

KO is a good, but not great, recruiter. He seems to struggle with closing, particularly with top talent. He doesn't deserve much criticism when we lose to Duke, Kansas, UK, etc. But when we lose out on two kids we really needed late in the game to St. John's and Cinci, well, his ability to close definitely deserves to be challenged.

Add in the amount of transfers, and it's fair to question his ability to pick the right kids. I know kids are transferring at an all time high, but he brought those guys in, and the chemistry sure seemed to be there before the season started. Add in the fact that a few guys got more PT than they had any right to expect coming in, and still transferred out, and KO's ability to recruit and retain the right kids definitely deserves to be questioned.

We caught the injury bug last year, the results should be taken in context. But he still has to do better with every aspect of the program outside of academics.

 

[UConnSwag11]

 

[Vancat]

LSU Students Accuse ‘Violent’ Tiger Mascot of Being ‘Symbol of White Oppression’, Want it Changed

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

He clearly doesn't wanna come here. Not sure why we're still obsessing over this. If he decides to come, great, but he's had plenty of opportunity to come here.

If KO can right the ship this year and get some recruiting going, great. If not... it's time to consider what is being done to the program long-term.

But I don't think sweating this particular recruit at this stage in the game is worth the emotional investment.

 

[boog204]

KO is a good, but not great, recruiter. He seems to struggle with closing, particularly with top talent. He doesn't deserve much criticism when we lose to Duke, Kansas, UK, etc. But when we lose out on two kids we really needed late in the game to St. John's and Cinci, well, his ability to close definitely deserves to be challenged.

Add in the amount of transfers, and it's fair to question his ability to pick the right kids. I know kids are transferring at an all time high, but he brought those guys in, and the chemistry sure seemed to be there before the season started. Add in the fact that a few guys got more PT than they had any right to expect coming in, and still transferred out, and KO's ability to recruit and retain the right kids definitely deserves to be questioned.

We caught the injury bug last year, the results should be taken in context. But he still has to do better with every aspect of the program outside of academics.

This whole "closing" thing is so overrated. Why is it such an amazing shock that players visited here and thought somewhere else was better? In this particular case, his HOMETOWN team? Why is it so amazing that a player talks to the coach about style, doesn't like what he hears, and commits to a school that better suits them?

We did not pick up any of the "bigger" targets we thought we would this spring. That doesn't, to me, all of a sudden make KO a bad closer. It means we did not get some guys. I'm also not ready to feed the whole "they are not UConn players" narrative that we have used in regards to the transfers. Enoch transferring made perfect sense. We are a guard-oriented team and he wants to be a pro. In his mind, it wasn't happening here. Durham and Vance both thought they were underutilized and they may be right. MAL saw a crowded backcourt as is, his main recruiter fired, and a bad season and went for (in his eyes) greener pastures.) Maybe these sound like cop outs, but up until this spring we all praised KO as a recruiter. He didn't just lose that ability. He certainly has to conduct some damage control and most importantly win, but when did this "lack of closing" idea become more than an outlier? We never stated this before.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

LSU Students Accuse ‘Violent’ Tiger Mascot of Being ‘Symbol of White Oppression’, Want it Changed

Are you posting that as a joke to highlight the stupidity of LSU? Or because you actually agree with that nonesense?

 

[auror]

LSU Students Accuse ‘Violent’ Tiger Mascot of Being ‘Symbol of White Oppression’, Want it Changed

This is. Wow.

 

[bazz&boujee]

someone tell tremont that jonathon is PC

 

[dennismenace]

LSU Students Accuse ‘Violent’ Tiger Mascot of Being ‘Symbol of White Oppression’, Want it Changed

How about changing it to Tinkerbell or a snowflake?

 

[intlzncster]

This whole "closing" thing is so overrated. Why is it such an amazing shock that players visited here and thought somewhere else was better? In this particular case, his HOMETOWN team? Why is it so amazing that a player talks to the coach about style, doesn't like what he hears, and commits to a school that better suits them?

We did not pick up any of the "bigger" targets we thought we would this spring. That doesn't, to me, all of a sudden make KO a bad closer. It means we did not get some guys. I'm also not ready to feed the whole "they are not UConn players" narrative that we have used in regards to the transfers. Enoch transferring made perfect sense. We are a guard-oriented team and he wants to be a pro. In his mind, it wasn't happening here. Durham and Vance both thought they were underutilized and they may be right. MAL saw a crowded backcourt as is, his main recruiter fired, and a bad season and went for (in his eyes) greener pastures.) Maybe these sound like cop outs, but up until this spring we all praised KO as a recruiter. He didn't just lose that ability. He certainly has to conduct some damage control and most importantly win, but when did this "lack of closing" idea become more than an outlier? We never stated this before.

My biggest beef with KO's recruiting remains focusing on some big time, high risk recruits, while neglecting the quality 2nd tier guys. Left holding the bag far too often in the last few years.

 

[champs99and04]

So it's that he couldn't "sell them", and not because he told one or more of them that their defense wasn't good enough and that they needed to work harder to earn minutes, right? Yup. It's already well documented on this board that Vance's dad was worked up about criticism over his son's D. It's already well documented on this board that Durham was upset about not getting more time on the court. It's already well documented on this board that Enoch was criticized for his defense as well. But keep banging the drum, I guess...

Do you think KO is the only coach who criticizes his players defense?

This is a holistic thing. When I say he can't sell them on playing for him, I mean he can't sell them on his coaching style, his ability to develop them, or their meaning to him. Being a college basketball coach is about selling yourself more than anything else. He's new at it, he'll have time to grow.

Would you rather I take the opposite approach and insist that there is no reason to play here? Because that is essentially what you're doing if you think the roster is OK right now.

 

[boog204]

My biggest beef with KO's recruiting remains focusing on some big time, high risk recruits, while neglecting the quality 2nd tier guys. Left holding the bag far too often in the last few years.

Yes, yes, yes... I said this in another thread, but we became great under JC by getting those "second tier" top 40-80 guys. They generally would stay 3-4 years and be part of a sick foundation. We'd then grab a top 20 guy now and again and you've got a great squad. KO has focused so much on trying to nab the big fish that the other fish are caught as well. We're then scrambling to find anything left swimming. Speaking in metaphor is obnoxious.

 

[gtcam]

My biggest beef with KO's recruiting remains focusing on some big time, high risk recruits, while neglecting the quality 2nd tier guys. Left holding the bag far too often in the last few years.

I agree but I really think KO is convinced that in due respect of the program that won 4 in 20 years, he needs to recruit the elite. In many ways I agree if he does feel this way but due to mant circumstances beyond his control, he is falling short. He continues because he needs to, however, I feel IF the ability of top talent going into the league becomes reality, that will make him and many others change.
The program needs to look at those 4s and 3+s

 

[pj]

I agree but I really think KO is convinced that in due respect of the program that won 4 in 20 years, he needs to recruit the elite. In many ways I agree if he does feel this way but due to mant circumstances beyond his control, he is falling short. He continues because he needs to, however, I feel IF the ability of top talent going into the league becomes reality, that will make him and many others change.
The program needs to look at those 4s and 3+s

I think everybody is looking at Calipari and Duke right now and saying, we need to compete with Kentucky by proving we can generate NBA lottery picks. So they want the 5* who are likely to be picked in the lottery.

It is a copycat strategy and the best opportunity may be to pursue the guys Calipari is passing on: the great college players who don't have NBA measurables or athleticism, or the raw prospects who need development but are coachable and have the right attitude.

KO needs to build up credibility first by winning and getting some lower-ranked players drafted. Then he can more realistically compete for the 5* players who like him as a coach, such as Cam Reddish who hit it off with KO.

 

[BlueMAB]

This whole "closing" thing is so overrated. Why is it such an amazing shock that players visited here and thought somewhere else was better? In this particular case, his HOMETOWN team? Why is it so amazing that a player talks to the coach about style, doesn't like what he hears, and commits to a school that better suits them?

We did not pick up any of the "bigger" targets we thought we would this spring. That doesn't, to me, all of a sudden make KO a bad closer. It means we did not get some guys. I'm also not ready to feed the whole "they are not UConn players" narrative that we have used in regards to the transfers. Enoch transferring made perfect sense. We are a guard-oriented team and he wants to be a pro. In his mind, it wasn't happening here. Durham and Vance both thought they were underutilized and they may be right. MAL saw a crowded backcourt as is, his main recruiter fired, and a bad season and went for (in his eyes) greener pastures.) Maybe these sound like cop outs, but up until this spring we all praised KO as a recruiter. He didn't just lose that ability. He certainly has to conduct some damage control and most importantly win, but when did this "lack of closing" idea become more than an outlier? We never stated this before.

I'm not shocked when we lose out on recruits. I'm also not one of those posters that expect us to win more recruiting battles than we lose, or that can't understand why a recruit would pick WKU over UConn. There are a number of reasons to pick one school over another, and there's no point trying to rationalize these decisions.

All of that aside, Ollie has had trouble closing on top targets. It's well documented. You can choose to disagree.

MAL committed to the same backcourt he backed out on. If Glenn Miller was the reason MAL chose to leave, rather than Kevin Ollie, well, like I said, there's no rationalizing these decisions, but it's still Ollie's job to find, land, and keep the right guys. There's no denying that he's had a bunch of misses by way of "parting ways" (Zach Brown), the well documented 2nd place finishes, the decommitment, and the transfers.

Pretending like everything that has happened the last 2 years is typical and to be expected is really strange.

 

[huskyfan224]

LSU Students Accuse ‘Violent’ Tiger Mascot of Being ‘Symbol of White Oppression’, Want it Changed

I am deeply upset that I am a millennial, so many snowflakes that are triggered by everything. So sad and so soft

 

[upstater]

Yes, yes, yes... I said this in another thread, but we became great under JC by getting those "second tier" top 40-80 guys. They generally would stay 3-4 years and be part of a sick foundation. We'd then grab a top 20 guy now and again and you've got a great squad. KO has focused so much on trying to nab the big fish that the other fish are caught as well. We're then scrambling to find anything left swimming. Speaking in metaphor is obnoxious.

The idea on the Boneyard though is that we've always been concerned in the past that a guy like Beatty (I don't even know his rank) will scare off a potentially higher rated player. I'm not saying I disagree with it, (though I can't believe anyone would argue against going all out for Diallo), but that is the logic.