Taliek II

[Waquoit]

What is it with the Boneyard and point guards that can't shoot? Like with Taliek, we have a faction forming with Ollie boosters that feel that their guy can never be criticized. And by criticized, I mean spoken about with anything less than a 100% rave. And like Taliek, my issue isn't with Ollie it's with the those who go overboard, the one's that piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Pardon my indugence, but for my own self-discipline, I'm stating here that I'm getting off the train. Que sera, sera.

 

[nomar]

Wait, what?

 

[Gurleyman]

I believe this would be considered a "non sequitur", which is Latin for "no sequins". They would say that often during figure skating competitions in Ancient Rome, when a competitor's dress didn't sparkle enough, and they would complain that it didn't look pretty. Much like Taliek.

 

[dante]

huh?

 

[Puertorock43]

Huh

 

[Husky68]

What is it with the Boneyard and point guards that can't shoot? Like with Taliek, we have a faction forming with Ollie boosters that feel that their guy can never be criticized. And by criticized, I mean spoken about with anything less than a 100% rave. And like Taliek, my issue isn't with Ollie it's with the those who go overboard, the one's that piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Pardon my indugence, but for my own self-discipline, I'm stating here that I'm getting off the train. Que sera, sera.

Yeah, not like you're always noting the pimple on Jessica Beal's butt.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

And like Taliek, my issue isn't with Ollie it's with the those who go overboard, the one's that piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

ipsa loquitor

 

[Waquoit]

I just realized, the Taliek reference to this board is over a decade old. If you guys don't go back that far don't worry about it. You didn't miss much.

 

[CL82]

I believe this would be considered a "non sequitur", which is Latin for "no sequins". They would say that often during figure skating competitions in Ancient Rome, when a competitor's dress didn't sparkle enough, and they would complain that it didn't look pretty. Much like Taliek.

Post of the day.

 

[nomar]

I just realized, the Taliek reference to this board is over a decade old. If you guys don't go back that far don't worry about it. You didn't miss much.

Yes, we all remember Taliek (of whose play I wasn't the biggest fan, not that it matters), and we all remember him being criticized, and his critics being criticized. We even remember Coach Calhoun calling out the Boneyard at a Final 4 press conference for our criticism of Taliek. So with full understanding of that background, let me tell you that to me, your post read like something that came out of one of Kevin Spacey's notebooks in Se7en.

Nobody understood what your point is. Were you comparing criticism of Ollie to criticism of Taliek, because both were point guards? Is that it? Or were you criticizing criticism of our current PGs? I'm guessing it's the former.

 

[OHusky]

Taliek 3 point shot at the buzzer to beat Pitt. Nothing but net !!! NOT

 

[ctchamps]

Kid played through turf toe and the murder of his best friend. Leads UConn in assists. Got a NC ring. And posters loved to hate him.

 

[caw]

What is it with the Boneyard and point guards that can't shoot? Like with Taliek, we have a faction forming with Ollie boosters that feel that their guy can never be criticized. And by criticized, I mean spoken about with anything less than a 100% rave. And like Taliek, my issue isn't with Ollie it's with the those who go overboard, the one's that piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Pardon my indugence, but for my own self-discipline, I'm stating here that I'm getting off the train. Que sera, sera.

After reading this 3 times, I get it. You are railing against a faction saying Ollie can't be criticized and tying Taliek in because he also couldn't shoot and had a faction saying he shouldn't be criticized.

I'm all for constructive criticism, but I'm not sure what you can criticize Ollie for so far this year. He has one unexpected win and one close loss that isn't really a bad loss at all. New Mexico is close to being a top 25 team, and may be one after beating UConn.

The team is playing well on defense, but having issues with rebounding (not shocking based on team composition). The offensive issues can mostly be traced to missed open shots and bobbled passes on fast breaks (Calhoun and Daniels last night, to name two from last night).

Prior to this season starting, what did people realistically think this team was going to do?

I honestly thought UConn would be 3-2 at this point in the year, based on teams they were likely to play. For the record I had them losing 3 out of conference, or perhaps 4 because I can never tell how good Washington is going to be on a given night/season. I thought they would lose to MSU, NM, NCST and maybe UW. They are outperforming my win/loss expectations.

The Double-OT win over Q was more worrying than the loss to NM.

 

[nomar]

Kid played through turf toe and the murder of his best friend. Leads UConn in assists. Got a NC ring. And posters loved to hate him.

There are few things I despise more about the internet than how it has led to the rise of the use of the word "hater" to describe people who offer up a minimum amount of criticism of someone or something (which is I guess Waq's original point).

Posters "loved to hate" Taliek? That is so ridiculous. I suppose I "loved to hate" Taliek because I didn't think he was very good? He had 7 turnovers in our Final Four game with Duke. Does pointing that out make me a "hater"? Apparently. I like the kid. Seemed like a nice guy. Played hard for us. Wasn't bad. I just don't think he was a very good player. That's an opinion, which I've stated on numerous occasions. I didn't wage a campaign to destroy his reputation.

 

[Gurleyman]

You're a hater (by which I mean a hypothetical "you" and not "you, Nomar") if you point out his seven turnovers against Duke and forget the fact that he manhandled Alabama's point guard in the Elite Eight (Pettway) and he's still picking pieces of Jarrett Jack out of his teeth from the championship game. I always liked Taliek, and I admit he caught a big break that we survived the Duke game in spite of his rough night. That would have been a legacy-doomer had we lost. But if the only thing you remember from that championship run is his off game against Duke, then you found the one piece of evidence that matched your pre-conceived opinions.

But similarly, what if we lost to Gonzaga when Khalid shot 0-12 and dribbled the ball off his own foot with nobody near him and 2 minutes to go, and got toasted by a little guard from Jamaica (the island, not the part of Queens that produces basketball players)? We got through it, and Khalid's legacy is the NC - which it should be, as it should be for Taliek.

 

[nomar]

OK, well I don't think Taliek was as valuable as Khalid was. Yes, Taliek had his moments (and I don't mean the Pitt 40-footer). He played good D on Jack, although I think that was also a team effort: we beat the crap out of them in all facets.

I don't think Taliek was a bad player, at all. I think he was a decent high-major player on good teams who cut down on his TOs a bit as his career went on but otherwise never showed much development offensively.

I pointed out the 7 turnovers because to me that is a lot more relevant to the discussion than the fact that his friend died and that he has a ring (apart from his actual contribution to getting that ring, which I am not discounting). Yeah, his good play against GT is relevant too. Definitely. But I go back the original point: if you don't want to saint someone, you're a hater. I happen to not use that expression unless someone is really unhinged. On the Celtics RealGM board, there are the guys who love Rondo and the guys who (bizarrely to me) want to trade him. It's a discussion that's been going on for years. And the guys on my side always call the other side "Rondo haters." I would never use that expression unless it seemed to me that one of those guys actually wants Rondo to play poorly to prove a point. In a million years I NEVER would have wanted anything for Taliek Brown other than great success. I always expected a little more from him. I preferred Andre Barrett as a player, as an example. But I liked Taliek, and I think that and hatred are mutually exclusive.

 

[Kitaman]

I will always defend Taliek. Against dook when I looked at the starting lineup, I knew we would not be beat. Why? Because we had a 4 year experienced point guard. Was he the greatest? By no means, but he was a comfort in the final four and I knew without a doubt his will was not going to be broken.

During 'that run' I would have not taken any other UConn point guard over him. After four years he was championship ready and led the team accordingly. He knew that team and their skills. Call me crazy but Taliek was the Man, and the right point guard at the right time.

 

[Gurleyman]

I think what hurt Taliek (and this is by no means an opinion that proves me to be a deep thinker) was that he was a top 20 recruit and a McD's A-A, coming on the heels of Khalid, so we had a certain expectation for what that skill level should entail. And he wasn't that good - there were gaping holes in his skillset (primarily shooting) which make we wonder why the recruiting services rated him so high. His freshman year, I thought he was going to be a liability his whole career - I just didn't see point guard instincts or shooting ability.

What happened was he found his role (tenacious D, push tempo, orchestrate shots for Emeka, Ben and Rashad) and got better. Yes - the players around him helped cover his weaknesses. It was good that we had BG to be the de facto point guard when protecting a lead so that Taliek could stay away from the line (a terrible weakness for a PG to have). But there's a certain intangible quality that he seemed to bring to the table and it showed up in the fact that we always seemed to play well in the postseason with him - in addition to the NC, we had two reasonable losses to Maryland and Texas, as well as two BE titles and a runner-up finish (when he was the only one who showed up in the title game). I think that with Ben and Emeka's low-key personalities, they needed Taliek too to help cover their weaknesses.

Before we came back against Duke, I was cringing over what that performance was going to do to his legacy. I was really glad he got a reprieve, and made the most of it by forcing Jarrett Jack into a 1-8, five turnover performance (if memory serves right on the stats). Duhon didn't have a great day either (he hit a 35-footer at the buzzer to pad his numbers a little and give folks in Vegas a heart attack). although he obviously won the head-to-head battle since Taliek was fighting with spitballs that night.

 

[CTBasketball]

Well it seems some fans on this board are burning their bridges. If I remember correctly, when Coombs-McDaniels transferred and got arrested for drugs, nobody jumped on his throat. I even remember a quote saying, "He helped win a NC, so he always has a soft spot for me."

Well folks, Taliek won a national title too. Sure, he was a top recruit who didn't quite pan out. But truth of the matter, he won a NC. Isn't that why you bring recruits in? You could argue the same case for Jamal Coombs-McDaniel, he was a top 30 or 40 recruit and he obviously didn't do anything good except grab a big rebound and score 20 against Georgetown. And do I even need to bring up Oriakhi?

Essentially, Taliek did no wrong. And people criticize him. Give the kid a break it was 8 years ago and he won us a NC. Isn't that enough?

 

[caw]

Well it seems some fans on this board are burning their bridges. If I remember correctly, when Coombs-McDaniels transferred and got arrested for drugs, nobody jumped on his throat. I even remember a quote saying, "He helped win a NC, so he always has a soft spot for me."

Well folks, Taliek won a national title too. Sure, he was a top recruit who didn't quite pan out. But truth of the matter, he won a NC. Isn't that why you bring recruits in? You could argue the same case for Jamal Coombs-McDaniel, he was a top 30 or 40 recruit and he obviously didn't do anything good except grab a big rebound and score 20 against Georgetown. And do I even need to bring up Oriakhi?

Essentially, Taliek did no wrong. And people criticize him. Give the kid a break it was 8 years ago and he won us a NC. Isn't that enough?

People jumped on Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's throat. If there is a UConn player that hasn't had their throat stepped on, I would love to know who it is. Even Kemba got crap his sophomore year, Butler got some his freshman year, Gordon did. Maybe Okafor, I can't remember much except people complaining about his health. Gay was thrown to the wolves, Boone, Charlie, El-Amin, Thabeet, etc.

 

[CTBasketball]

People jumped on Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's throat. If there is a UConn player that hasn't had their throat stepped on, I would love to know who it is. Even Kemba got crap his sophomore year, Butler got some his freshman year, Gordon did. Maybe Okafor, I can't remember much except people complaining about his health. Gay was thrown to the wolves, Boone, Charlie, El-Amin, Thabeet, etc.

I guess we're just a ultra-critical fan-base.

 

[ctchamps]

People jumped on Jamal Coombs-McDaniel's throat. If there is a UConn player that hasn't had their throat stepped on, I would love to know who it is. Even Kemba got crap his sophomore year, Butler got some his freshman year, Gordon did. Maybe Okafor, I can't remember much except people complaining about his health. Gay was thrown to the wolves, Boone, Charlie, El-Amin, Thabeet, etc.

Every player has taken heat. Some players get a higher percentage. This year SN is already being singled out for his defensive lapses. Its appropriate criticism to point out those lapses. It's fairer imo if all the players with defensive lapses are included and in yesterdays game that pretty much was everyone.

There is no doubt in my mind that Taliek and Jerome garnered the worst commentary from the fan base. Jamal Coombs-McDaniel and AO got off mild compared to those two guys. Interestingly both Taliek and Jerome played with full intensity, traits JC admired. But they also appeared out of control and that bothers people.

I find it no coincidence that people who put down players, as opposed to those who give critical evaluation of the skill sets of players, are often those people who can't handle criticism when it is directed at them.

 

[CTBasketball]

This year SN is already being singled out for his defensive lapses.

Bazz plays hard defense every possession he fouls out every other game. He is the thing that is keeping this team alive right now. Him and foul trouble means lots of losses.

 

[ctchamps]

There are few things I despise more about the internet than how it has led to the rise of the use of the word "hater" to describe people who offer up a minimum amount of criticism of someone or something (which is I guess Waq's original point).

Posters "loved to hate" Taliek? That is so ridiculous. I suppose I "loved to hate" Taliek because I didn't think he was very good? He had 7 turnovers in our Final Four game with Duke. Does pointing that out make me a "hater"? Apparently. I like the kid. Seemed like a nice guy. Played hard for us. Wasn't bad. I just don't think he was a very good player. That's an opinion, which I've stated on numerous occasions. I didn't wage a campaign to destroy his reputation.

I stand by the phrase I used. It's a broad paint brush that wasn't intended to single out any individual poster. People confuse vitriol with criticism. Taliek got a lot of vitriol. So did Jerome. They are players that lots of fans hated. The commentary directed at those two was often demeaning, ridiculing, hateful, spiteful. It didn't confine itself to x's and o's. It didn't talk about skill sets. It often eliminated the positive those guys brought and only discussed their negatives. People making statements like they have chemistry issues, are cancers to the team are frequently posters who are out of control. Their commentary is personal. They try to marginalize players by getting others to rally with them and put those players down. I'm not a homer. Nor am I overly sensitive to this sort of thing. At some point the situation reaches mob mentality. And that makes me cringe. That's my personal bugaboo, the same as yours is the statement "loved to hate".

 

[ctchamps]

Bazz plays hard defense every possession he fouls out every other game. He is the thing that is keeping this team alive right now. Him and foul trouble means lots of losses.

I'm sorry I gave the impression I was attacking his defense. I was focusing in on posters who were isolating their criticism to his defense. There were a lot of other players with defensive issues ahead of Shabazz imo.