Shogun (Hulu)

[nelsonmuntz]

This show deserves its own thread, it is so awesome. I have just finished the second episode. The acting is incredible, as is the tension. I was never a fan of Richard Chamberlain, and thought he was the biggest problem with the original miniseries. A lot of those old-time actors were theatre actors first, and while overacting is fine on a stage, they needed to dial it back on screen. Chamberlain spent most of the first miniseries chewing the scenery or even eating the whole set. The actor who played Yabushige was incredible in the first miniseries, but the actor this time around is even better. He is a very important, and complex character, and could come off as just a garden variety scumbag in the hands of a weaker actor.

Spoiler

The scene were Blackthorne explains the map of the world to Torunaga and the Heir is so well done. The characters' appreciation of what he is saying, from all of their very differing perspectives, was awesome, even with most of the scene being in Japanese. Mariko's epiphany that her Portuguese priests had been lying to her for 14 years was so well done and showed a series of emotions sweeping over her in just a few seconds.

 

[Waquoit]

I can't watch this. The ending reminds too much of UConn football.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

The third episode was awesome, and a little more action for those that wanted it. I can't remember if Kiyami ambushed both Ishido's and Toranaga's men in the 1980 version, but that was pretty funny, and a good representation of the complexity of the relationships at the time in real life and in the story. Everyone is an ally and an enemy.

Cosmo Jarvis is doing a great job as Blackthorne. Blackthorne is a pirate and a killer, and the role needed an actor that was credible as both.

The ratings for Shogun have been great. Expect all the other miniseries from the 70's and 80's to be remade soon.

 

[ZooCougar]

Blackthorne (Anjin) has too much plot armor. Other than that it’s pretty good.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Blackthorne (Anjin) has too much plot armor. Other than that it’s pretty good.

Ehh, not exactly. There are more outcomes than just life and death.

A case can be made that only three characters in the entire series have a happy ending. I believe that the wrong side won this conflict, and Japanese history would have been very different, and better for Japan, if the outcome in real life had turned out differently.

 

[ZooCougar]

Ehh, not exactly. There are more outcomes than just life and death.

A case can be made that only three characters in the entire series have a happy ending. I believe that the wrong side won this conflict, and Japanese history would have been very different, and better for Japan, if the outcome in real life had turned out differently.

Plot armor exactly. It was almost as if the character was self aware of it in that last episode. It’s a minor quibble but at some the extraordinary risk taking makes it hard to suspend belief.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Plot armor exactly. It was almost as if the character was self aware of it in that last episode. It’s a minor quibble but at some the extraordinary risk taking makes it hard to suspend belief.

The late middle ages is one of the most interesting periods of time politically around the world. People took unimaginable risks using the technological advances of the day, and if they survived, the risks paid off HUGE. Getting one boat to the far east, and back, would generate the relative wealth for the crew and investors that starting a half billion dollar tech company generates today. Blackthorne (aka William Adams) was a pirate/trader that went halfway around the world with a bunch of Dutch pirates using a stolen rutter that they weren't sure if it was a forgery when they started their journey. 4 of the 5 ships that he left Holland with didn't make it to Japan. THAT is risk taking.

A guy that would take those kinds of risks, and had spent a few nights in a prison that was essentially a death row, was not worried about bailing himself and Toranaga out of the sticky situation at the castle. To be honest, he wasn't really taking a risk in that situation, because if he did nothing, every one of them would have been put to death, and I think Mariko pointed out.

 

[ZooCougar]

The late middle ages is one of the most interesting periods of time politically around the world. People took unimaginable risks using the technological advances of the day, and if they survived, the risks paid off HUGE. Getting one boat to the far east, and back, would generate the relative wealth for the crew and investors that starting a half billion dollar tech company generates today. Blackthorne (aka William Adams) was a pirate/trader that went halfway around the world with a bunch of Dutch pirates using a stolen rutter that they weren't sure if it was a forgery when they started their journey. 4 of the 5 ships that he left Holland with didn't make it to Japan. THAT is risk taking.

A guy that would take those kinds of risks, and had spent a few nights in a prison that was essentially a death row, was not worried about bailing himself and Toranaga out of the sticky situation at the castle. To be honest, he wasn't really taking a risk in that situation, because if he did nothing, every one of them would have been put to death, and I think Mariko pointed out.

I’m more referring to the part where he started hollering and drawing attention to himself on their way out of Osaka. I was like, come on. It was ridiculous.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I’m more referring to the part where he started hollering and drawing attention to himself on their way out of Osaka. I was like, come on. It was ridiculous.

SPOILERS


That is the same part I am referring to. If Toranaga was discovered there, every single one of his retinue would have been killed, which I believe Mariko actually says in the scene (or immediately after, I will have to rewatch). Acting crazy there was not a risk at all for Blackthorne, since the alternative was certain death.

I will admit the boat race scene was a little contrived. It is meant to show the relationship between Rodriguez and Blackthorne, plus Blackthorne's skill as a sailor, but it is not my favorite scene from the book or the miniseries. I don't view that scene as plot armor so much as the author having written himself into a corner and needing to get out. Clavell had to get Blackthorne out of Osaka harbor while using the Portuguese Black Ship to escape Kiyama's navy. The Japanese politics are really important to the plot, and they are much more complex than just Ishido vs. Toranaga.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

It gets better every week. I don't want it to end.

George R.R. Martin has cited the War of the Roses as his inspiration for Game of Thrones, but a lot of his characters seem to have parallels with Shogun/Sengoku period.

Toronaga (real-life Tokugawa Ieyasu) = Tywin Lannister
Toda Mariko (Hosokawa Gracia) = Some Arya and some Sansa Stark
Akechi Jinsai (Akechi Mitsuhide) = Jaime Lannister with some Ned Stark too
Taiko (Toyotomi Hideyoshi) = Robert Baratheon
Lady Ochiba (Yodo-dono) = Cersei Lannister
Goroda (Oda Nobunaga) = Some Aegon Targaryen in that Nobunaga was pretty crazy and a bit of a sadist, but some Robert Baratheon in that Nobunaga pulled off some amazing military victories.
Kashigi Yabushige (Honda Masanobu) - Roose Bolton. Very smart and competent, technically loyal, but clearly playing for his own team. And a horrible sadist. Yabu is much worse in the book Shogun than he is in this miniseries.
Ikko-ikki (not in the book or miniseries but did exist in real life) = Faith Militant

The second and third books of the series, A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords have much more in common with the multi-lateral warfare of the Sengoku Period than with the War of the Roses, which while it had some crazy stuff happen, was more bi-lateral.

Given how much of a history nut Martin is, it is hard to believe that he didn't use the Sengoku period as inspiration for GoT given the similarities between some of the characters and events in his books with real life.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Is anyone else watching this? It is awesome, with a couple of quibbles:

Toronaga was more fun in the book than he is in the miniseries. He actually comes across kind of deutchy in the books because he is supremely arrogant and messing with everyone all the time.

The producers also toned down the language from the book. The minor Japanese characters are often very vulgar and very funny in the book. Everyone is too serious.

The show is 80% over, and Blackthorne has not changed nearly as much over that time as he did in the books. I know they pivoted the miniseries to more Mariko and more Torunaga deliberately, but Blackthorne's growing respect for Japan and its people is really important to the plot, and the miniseries is kind of ignoring it.

On the other hand, the Yabushige character is even better than he was in the book or the previous miniseries. They toned the character down a little from the books, and it really works. I think the actor should be in the mix for an Emmy even though he has not said a word of English the entire miniseries.

 

[storrsroars]

I'm watching Shogun, but as stated earlier, never read the book, so it's all new to me and I have no expectations. I'm quite enjoying it. And yes, Yabushige is one of my favorite characters so far, although I miss Rodriguez, who was a hoot.

 

[Deepster]

It gets better every week. I don't want it to end.

George R.R. Martin has cited the War of the Roses as his inspiration for Game of Thrones, but a lot of his characters seem to have parallels with Shogun/Sengoku period.

Toronaga (real-life Tokugawa Ieyasu) = Tywin Lannister
Toda Mariko (Hosokawa Gracia) = Some Arya and some Sansa Stark
Akechi Jinsai (Akechi Mitsuhide) = Jaime Lannister with some Ned Stark too
Taiko (Toyotomi Hideyoshi) = Robert Baratheon
Lady Ochiba (Yodo-dono) = Cersei Lannister
Goroda (Oda Nobunaga) = Some Aegon Targaryen in that Nobunaga was pretty crazy and a bit of a sadist, but some Robert Baratheon in that Nobunaga pulled off some amazing military victories.
Kashigi Yabushige (Honda Masanobu) - Roose Bolton. Very smart and competent, technically loyal, but clearly playing for his own team. And a horrible sadist. Yabu is much worse in the book Shogun than he is in this miniseries.
Ikko-ikki (not in the book or miniseries but did exist in real life) = Faith Militant

The second and third books of the series, A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords have much more in common with the multi-lateral warfare of the Sengoku Period than with the War of the Roses, which while it had some crazy stuff happen, was more bi-lateral.

Given how much of a history nut Martin is, it is hard to believe that he didn't use the Sengoku period as inspiration for GoT given the similarities between some of the characters and events in his books with real life.

That’s super cool. Great posting.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I enjoy it. Didn't read the book. Watched the original miniseries ages ago. I would say this is an example where waiting and binging would have been preferred. There are some many small details and complex relationships that putting a week in between episodes isn't ideal.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I enjoy it. Didn't read the book. Watched the original miniseries ages ago. I would say this is an example where waiting and binging would have been preferred. There are some many small details and complex relationships that putting a week in between episodes isn't ideal.

I don't know. This show, much like the Bear, are shows I like to let breathe a little. I like to absorb what happened for a few days, maybe read a couple of recap articles.

 

[ZooCougar]

I fall asleep every week watching this show. It’s good but man it’s way too much talking and not enough doing.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I fall asleep every week watching this show. It’s good but man it’s way too much talking and not enough doing.

Between Shogun and Tokyo Vice, I feel like I should learn Japanese because the subtitles are a bit tiring. I am OK with them in Shogun, because the communication issues are central to the plot, and when they are speaking English in the show, the characters are actually supposed to be speaking Portuguese anyway. Blackthorne is always in a second language, which is important to the story.

I don't know how much extra value we get in Tokyo Vice by going back and forth between English and Japanese, since all the important Anglo characters are fluent in Japanese too. Why not just film it in English? I am going to make it through The New Look, but if it had been in French with English subtitles, I would have stopped after two episodes. The Great is hilarious, but imagine trying to watch it in Russian with English subtitles?

 

[nomar]

Is anyone else watching this? It is awesome, with a couple of quibbles:

Toronaga was more fun in the book than he is in the miniseries. He actually comes across kind of deutchy in the books because he is supremely arrogant and messing with everyone all the time.

The producers also toned down the language from the book. The minor Japanese characters are often very vulgar and very funny in the book. Everyone is too serious.

The show is 80% over, and Blackthorne has not changed nearly as much over that time as he did in the books. I know they pivoted the miniseries to more Mariko and more Torunaga deliberately, but Blackthorne's growing respect for Japan and its people is really important to the plot, and the miniseries is kind of ignoring it.

On the other hand, the Yabushige character is even better than he was in the book or the previous miniseries. They toned the character down a little from the books, and it really works. I think the actor should be in the mix for an Emmy even though he has not said a word of English the entire miniseries.

I don't remember the book all that well, as I read it 20 years ago, but I agree re Blackthorne.

Also, I love the guy who plays Yabushige -- could watch him grunt and sigh for 10 hours.

 

[nomar]

Between Shogun and Tokyo Vice, I feel like I should learn Japanese because the subtitles are a bit tiring. I am OK with them in Shogun, because the communication issues are central to the plot, and when they are speaking English in the show, the characters are actually supposed to be speaking Portuguese anyway. Blackthorne is always in a second language, which is important to the story.

I don't know how much extra value we get in Tokyo Vice by going back and forth between English and Japanese, since all the important Anglo characters are fluent in Japanese too. Why not just film it in English? I am going to make it through The New Look, but if it had been in French with English subtitles, I would have stopped after two episodes. The Great is hilarious, but imagine trying to watch it in Russian with English subtitles?

I think the flipping back between languages just makes it more realistic. You get a sense for how fluent a character is in both languages.

I don't mind it but man, when I'm tired, it's hard to keep my eyes open watching the shows with subtitles.

 

[Dove]

We are about to embark on watching this show.

 

[nomar]

We are about to embark on watching this show.

How's Hopi's Japanese?