OT: Player who didn’t make the baseball Hall of Fame that you think should?

[FlippinCrazy!]

Thinking back on the early 2000s, everyone was jacked out of their minds. Its cheating, but when so many players are doing steroids, players have to keep up with their competition somehow, especially when there are millions of dollars on the line and a very limited duration to make it.

That’s why I’d be voting for all these steroid users. That, and it’s also bogging down the HOF ballot hard, taking away from guys who didn’t use steroids. Maybe some of the borderline steroid users shouldn’t get in, but guys like bonds and Clemens?

 

[superjohn]

don't think so. Maybe you need to explain better. Bagwell waited too long? I hear ya on Baines but Bagwell shouldn't be there either, what am I missing? LOL

Bonds and Clemens were caught cheating, I think it's a joke they aren't Hall of Famers because they are two of the best players to ever play and they cheated in a time when so many of their peers were cheating....it's bad enough they are being kept out but keeping out players you think may have cheated even though you don't have proof is really wrong. Bagwell was kept out for a long time because some idiot sportswriters "know" he was doing steroids because his arms got bigger. If suspicions are grounds for keeping people out then there shouldn't be any players let in from the entire era. It was all suspect, there is a reason it's called the steroid era.

 

[storrsroars]

Huh? Why should he be in and not Bonds then? I mean you said I'm leaving the "best players out with no evidence", hep me understand who you mean then? Best player was Bonds HPFer without cheating. Bagwell, nice player no sniff of the HOF without cheating..help me understand what you're missing sj?

It's widely assumed Bonds didn't start PEDs until after the 1998 season in response to Sosa/McGwire. In the 13 seasons from 1986-98, Bonds had already compiled 411 HRs, a career OPS of .966 and bWAR of 99.9 with 3 MVP awards. He dominated those 13 years and was already a no-doubt HoFer.

 

[superjohn]

Thinking back on the early 2000s, everyone was jacked out of their minds. Its cheating, but when so many players are doing steroids, players have to keep up with their competition somehow, especially when there are millions of dollars on the line and a very limited duration to make it.

That’s why I’d be voting for all these steroid users. That, and it’s also bogging down the HOF ballot hard, taking away from guys who didn’t use steroids. Maybe some of the borderline steroid users shouldn’t get in, but guys like bonds and Clemens?

Bingo, well said. All the people in charge knew they were on gear and they all promoted it because it was all making them money. For them to turn around and pretend they weren't complicit and to pick and choose who the villains are is ridiculous.

 

[The Viking]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

 

[intlzncster]

Bingo, well said. All the people in charge knew they were on gear and they all promoted it because it was all making them money. For them to turn around and pretend they weren't complicit and to pick and choose who the villains are is ridiculous.

People don't like admitting this, but PEDs injected new life into baseball in the late 90s. pun intended.

 

[whaler11]

The baseball HOF is so broken the conversations are pointless but the fact that Vizquel gets more support than Scott Rolen should be evidence it should be shut down.

 

[whaler11]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

Yeah because raw ERA is a great measure when comparing NL and AL pitchers.

I wonder it there is a complication to that.

 

[Mr. French]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

I agree... I’m not sure any of them are, but if they are, Schilling is.

 

[The Viking]

Yeah because raw ERA is a great measure when comparing NL and AL pitchers.

I wonder it there is a complication to that.

Here are two more for ya.

ERA+ which is park and league adjusted. 100 is baseline, you want higher than 100 for better than average.

Schilling - 127
Mussina - 123
Pettitte - 117

xFIP- is also park and league adjusted - I could find it as a stat back to 2002, so these numbers are from 2002 on.. 100 is baseline, and the lower the number the better

Schilling 72
Pettitte 85
Mussina 87

 

[whaler11]

Here's another one for ya.

ERA+ which is park and league adjusted. 100 is baseline, you want higher than 100 for better than average.

Schilling - 127
Mussina - 123
Pettitte - 117

Mussina and Schilling have the exact same essentials. Mussina got in first because he retired first and isn’t making a complete fool of himself on a weekly basis.

Schilling will get in within the next two years.

Pettitte will never threaten to get in.

 

[AdamaNation]

I am not a Yankee fan but I admire Andy Pettite and his numbers don’t lie in regular season or the post. Only guy i believed was genuine in the whol steroid era.

Didn’t he get pinched with rocket in Houston, and get a hand slap for flipping on him?

 

[whaler11]

Didn’t he get pinched with rocket in Houston, and get a hand slap for flipping on him?

Andy Pettitte got caught and then admitted to using HGH ‘once’.

He also had to go to Houston because his wife forced him to leave his NY mistress.

 

[jayteeman]

Oh captain my captain. Thurman Munson should be there - he was the epitome of a man's baseball player. Would have, could have, should have.

 

[boog204]

Yankee fan... Pettitte is not a hall of famer. He was a very good pitcher but never was a dominant force. I think Mussina was at times and I can deal with his induction. Bonds and Clemens should be in. They were no-doubters before going PED and I truly think if they weren't such colossal d-bags they would already be in. I also think Larry Walker is incredibly underrated and the Coors factor is weighted too much against him. In his best year, 1997, Walker hit 346 with more home runs on the road (29-20) and in other years his .OPS is virtually the same home/away. While there were certainly some years where his home stats are better, this is obviously in-line with virtually any player.

Pete Rose is a hall-of-famer, obviously. But as someone who only saw him at the very end as a slow, singles hitter, I have always wondered if he wasn't very overrated. I.e., isn't he the epitome of the compiler? Obviously his prime years are very good. But he finished his career with six incredibly mediocre years to get the hit record and his career WAR is just about the same as Lou Whitaker.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

My issue with Rose is that top players in other sports openly gambled without consequences. Jordan, obviously. Bobby Riggs bragged about betting on tennis matches, and everyone loved him and he is in the tennis Hall of Fame.

 

[mauconnfan]

Lifetime ERA/FIP/xFIP

Schilling - 3.45 / 3.23 / 3.17 (Postseason 11-2, 2.23 ERA, World Series 4-1, 2.06)
Mussina - 3.68 / 3.57 / 3.68 (Postseason 7-8, 3.42 ERA, World Series 1-1, 3.00)
Pettitte - 3.85 / 3.74 / 3.70 (Postseason 19-11, 3.81 ERA, World Series 5-4, 4.06)

Of the three, Schilling is the best.

Mussina and Schilling are equal basically, mirror career images. Mussina facing the Designated Hitter (had to spell it out it was changing to Dan Hurley otherwise LOL) his whole career easily makes up the ERA difference between him and Schilling. But Schilling great in the postseason he will get in. As someone stated think Mussina got there because he's a better guy, that's a no brainer. Guys a but his career is HOF worthy, especially if Don Sutton is in.

Andy? Had some real special wins in the playoffs and WS also but just seems to fall a bit short. Could pop it late but doubt it.

 

[mauconnfan]

Missed your reply, you hit the main points well.

In fact, that’s so true in my case. I moved to OF when I never played there consistently before, and I immediately emulated him (for better or worse).

He was so smooth in the field. He just never was a consistent enough hitter, especially for average.

I guess I should add my vote in the topic at hand: I voted Visquel and Bonds. I’m not overly thrilled though. It’s a tough question.

Great fielder, right there almost with Ken G Jr but not offensively good enough consistently. I mean if he ever got in ahead of Don Mattingly I would puke.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'd vote in Bonds and Clemens because they were HOFers before they started cheating. Pettite wasn't.

I'm biased, but if Mussina belongs in the HOF, then Schilling definitely does too. (Although I can't say I'd want to listen to his speech.) Both much better then Pettite, who was very good and a seemingly good dude.

Agreed. I think Mussina was an iffy choice really. Not because he was a Yankee, I thought Rivera was a deserving unanimous choice. Mussina was good. Schilling was better. Schilling, Mussina better than Smoltz

 

[Excalibur]

Mussina gets in over Schilling for two reasons:

Curt was and is a [fill in expletive]

Baseball writers are old and dumb enough to think that wins are a useful stat for evaluating starting pitchers.

 

[nomar]

My issue with Rose is that top players in other sports openly gambled without consequences. Jordan, obviously. Bobby Riggs bragged about betting on tennis matches, and everyone loved him and he is in the tennis Hall of Fame.

The problem is, of course, that Rose was betting on his own team, and not every game. Meaning that certain games would be more important to him, and could result in him using pitchers and players in a certain way to the detriment of the team's performance in the following game. Even if that didn't actually result in the Reds losing games, it's far beyond what other athletes have done as far as gambling goes. (Obviously it's nowhere near point shaving, as long as Rose is telling the truth when he says he always bet on the Reds.)

 

[FartMan69]

The baseball establishment forced the players hands when it came to taking PED's. It wasn't only well known drug use was rampent and the league needed those HR totals to recover from the strike. To try and place a cheater label on certain players because they did what they had to do to stay competitive in a league where EVERYONE was juicing is naive and quite frankly only olds seem to be bothered by it. The HOF is a baseball museum in Central NY and documents all of baseball history and like it or not you old fogies but the steroid era happened and is in fact still happening.

 

[Caronimo]

I wouldn't have an issue with all 6 of those guys getting in. I am not sure if I would vote on a known roid user, but have no issue with Clemens and Bonds getting in. Again, not sure if I would vote on them or not... they should be recognized somehow by the HOF. Larry Walker is borderline to me. Schilling and Visquel should be in. I don't think Schilling has been voted in simply because of his right wing political openness and other off the field stuff.

 

[ZenConn]

Bonds and Clemens should be in. PED's isn't only limited to the the 90's and up and has been in baseball from the start - from creatine to HGH to amphetamines and everything in between.

Hell, I once read that Babe Ruth once tried to inject himself with some sort of steroid or testosterone from a sheep or something and got himself sick.

 

[crewbear742]

[Bonds] dominated those 13 years and was already a no-doubt HoFer.

It's precisely because he deserves to get in the HOF that it should be denied him. He should not receive that validation of his career. No honor. No plaque. No speech. No moment in the sun. Nothing.