OT/OT: National Anthem - H.S. & College Athletes - USA Basketball & Olympics

[JavaMan]

On this day of respect for our country and our veterans who are BRAVE so the rest of us can be FREE, I've been wondering about USA Basketball selection committee members and how they may/might/could be influenced while voting for high school, college, and/or professional athletes who will represent the USA in national, international, and Olympic competition. Could athletes who stand straight armed, lower their head, kneel, squat, sit, turn their back, don't show up, or fail in some other way to participate in the tradition national anthem process prior to athletic competition be saddled with a silent bias as an athlete when it comes to representing the USA. I don't fault or judge anyone for their beliefs or causes, this is part of what FREE means. However, being disrespectful (or harmful) to others in the process, whether it's intended or not, creates consequences, like it or not.

If you were a voting/selecting member would you be influenced? Of course it's unlikely a member would say that this had a bearing on their decision, but I'm just wondering what others think about this.

What brought this to the surface for me was a news report I saw that stated that Colin Kaepernick not only chose not to vote in the elections Tuesday, but also stated, "Didn't really matter to me if Trump or Clinton won." Are high school and college kids who choose this behavior out further on a limb that hey realize, as it pertains to their future in the sport?

I'll go on record and say that if I were on the selection committee, an athlete who routinely choose to reject the traditional USA anthem ceremony prior to their athletic competitions, would already (silently of course) have one strike against them as a representative of the United Sates of America.

​

 

[BostonCanuck]

I was at the Pace game at XL on Sunday and noticed that Gabby bowed her head and kept both arms at her side. She was the only Husky not to hold her right hand to her chest. I do hope that all of this is more of a passing fad rather than something that escalates any further. Recent indicators from the NFL and MLB show that some cooling off may be taking place, but the election result does introduce a wild card. My biggest worry now is that that some individuals (or even teams) may choose not to visit the White House upon their team a national championship. If stuff like that happens, then you might see some countermeasures like what JavaMan described. I hope not, though.

 

[Biff]

I was at the Pace game at XL on Sunday and noticed that Gabby bowed her head and kept both arms at her side. She was the only Husky not to hold her right hand to her chest. I do hope that all of this is more of a passing fad rather than something that escalates any further. Recent indicators from the NFL and MLB show that some cooling off may be taking place, but the election result does introduce a wild card. My biggest worry now is that that some individuals (or even teams) may choose not to visit the White House upon their team a national championship. If stuff like that happens, then you might see some countermeasures like what JavaMan described. I hope not, though.

I was not at the game so I did not see the Anthem myself but.....are you sure about what you saw? Kia Nurse in not an American citizen and stands at attention with her hands at her sides during the anthem. I suspect you confused her with Gabby.

 

[BroadwayVa]

On this day of respect for our country and our veterans who are BRAVE so the rest of us can be FREE, I've been wondering about USA Basketball selection committee members and how they may/might/could be influenced while voting for high school, college, and/or professional athletes who will represent the USA in national, international, and Olympic competition. Could athletes who stand straight armed, lower their head, kneel, squat, sit, turn their back, don't show up, or fail in some other way to participate in the tradition national anthem process prior to athletic competition be saddled with a silent bias as an athlete when it comes to representing the USA. I don't fault or judge anyone for their beliefs or causes, this is part of what FREE means. However, being disrespectful (or harmful) to others in the process, whether it's intended or not, creates consequences, like it or not.

If you were a voting/selecting member would you be influenced? Of course it's unlikely a member would say that this had a bearing on their decision, but I'm just wondering what others think about this.

What brought this to the surface for me was a news report I saw that stated that Colin Kaepernick not only chose not to vote in the elections Tuesday, but also stated, "Didn't really matter to me if Trump or Clinton won." Are high school and college kids who choose this behavior out further on a limb that hey realize, as it pertains to their future in the sport?

I'll go on record and say that if I were on the selection committee, an athlete who routinely choose to reject the traditional USA anthem ceremony prior to their athletic competitions, would already (silently of course) have one strike against them as a representative of the United Sates of America.

​

You present an interesting point of view. As many others on this subject I am conflicted and confused by: 1. I believe in the Constitution and the right for Citizens to protest 2. I also believe that the Flag and the Anthem represent all those who went in harms way to allow this country's peoples Liberties . I believe Citizen s have a responsibility to honor the memory of those who fought and died for ALL of our Rights.
With Rights come Duties- There appears to be no moral middle ground.

 

[BostonCanuck]

My bad, Kia did not put her right hand to her chest (nor did she bow her head) for the reason you mentioned, Biff. So Kia was doing her regular thing, which is probably why I forgot that as an exception to the other team mates. But I did not confuse her with the Gabulous one, who definitely stood as I had described (including with head bowed).

 

[BroadwayVa]

I was at the Pace game at XL on Sunday and noticed that Gabby bowed her head and kept both arms at her side. She was the only Husky not to hold her right hand to her chest. I do hope that all of this is more of a passing fad rather than something that escalates any further. Recent indicators from the NFL and MLB show that some cooling off may be taking place, but the election result does introduce a wild card. My biggest worry now is that that some individuals (or even teams) may choose not to visit the White House upon their team a national championship. If stuff like that happens, then you might see some countermeasures like what JavaMan described. I hope not, though.

There was some posting when all this started in the NFL whether Geno would allow it or not--apparently we have the answer. He will allow silent protest. While I'm not thrilled Gabby chooses not to hold her heart--I understand why she would feel compelled to do it. Sorry Canuck election or not unless the Constitution is thrown in the trash--reprisal if any will be slow in coming and quietly accomplished .

 

[JavaMan]

... I suspect you confused her with Gabby.

He did not.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I was not at the game so I did not see the Anthem myself but.....are you sure about what you saw? Kia Nurse in not an American citizen and stands at attention with her hands at her sides during the anthem. I suspect you confused her with Gabby.

You would think one Canuck would know another (KIA) (this from another Canuck)

 

[Biff]

He did not.

So you are saying that Kia had her hand over her heart? I've not seen her do that.

 

[JavaMan]

So you are saying that Kia had her hand over her heart? I've not seen her do that.

No. Kia had her hands to her side, head up. Gabby had her hands to her side, head down.

 

[BostonCanuck]

No. Kia had her hands to her side, head up. Gabby had her hands to her side, head down.

Exactly.

 

[Biff]

No. Kia had her hands to her side, head up. Gabby had her hands to her side, head down.

O.K. that's clear. The OP had said that there was only one player without hand on heart thus my question.

 

[UcMiami]

A lot of the Olympic team is determined based on trials/results of competitions so those folks would not be affected. I would hope that the other selections would be made on merit and not on how people are exercising their constitutional rights, but who knows.

I have read a few very interesting comments from coaches and players in professional sports about leading their predominantly minority teams into venues (including their home venues) where they know that the majority of the fans in the seats supported a candidate who said disparaging things about minorities. It has to feel strange. I think a lot will depend on whether the temperature of discourse cools - if it doesn't, I could see it expanding.

As for the white house visits - I am just happy we got six with a basketball crazy CIC.

(I hope that isn't considered to political a comment.)

 

[BroadwayVa]

A lot of the Olympic team is determined based on trials/results of competitions so those folks would not be affected. I would hope that the other selections would be made on merit and not on how people are exercising their constitutional rights, but who knows.

I have read a few very interesting comments from coaches and players in professional sports about leading their predominantly minority teams into venues (including their home venues) where they know that the majority of the fans in the seats supported a candidate who said disparaging things about minorities. It has to feel strange. I think a lot will depend on whether the temperature of discourse cools - if it doesn't, I could see it expanding.

As for the white house visits - I am just happy we got six with a basketball crazy CIC.

(I hope that isn't considered to political a comment.)

It is ALWAYS POLITICAL when writing/speaking of the USA Constitution, but proper political!!

A few people, and I believe the UConn Coaching staff is one group, that throws away ethnic, race, religion, politics when selecting the best player, with the proper uconn attitude.
But, you are aware that bias, discrimination is a basic human trait and some as hard as they try it creeps into the decision--rightly or wrongly. The most successful function when getting peoples of different anythings to accept one another is: to get them together and see the sameness not the differences.
So some may consider the position of the hand or the knee while in a normally patriotic stance
as a negative when making selections. In a perfect world that would not happen--but the world we live in is imperfect in every way--it's run by humans, imperfect species..

 

[vtcwbuff]

Assuming the Williams post is accurate - I wonder if she realizes how disrespectful her protest is to guys like this and the thousands of others like him.

 

[JavaMan]

Assuming the Williams post is accurate - I wonder if she realizes how disrespectful her protest is to guys like this and the thousands of others like him. View attachment 16803

Gabby is a great kid, but still just a kid. She can't know what most of us know about our heroic, yet bloody history. She can't see the world through our lens, nor we through hers. I seriously doubt Gabby would intentionally be disrespectful to any person, let alone a disabled veteran, or any veteran.

For the passionate youth, rebellion is intrinsic, but it takes courage to act on that rebellion. This is why the majority stay silent, most are not courageous. The courageous youth wants to be heard. They want to right wrongs. They want to make their mark. Oh, how I long for that energy again. Gabby is definitely one of the courageous, UConn fans will attest to that. I'm sure we Boneyarders wouldn't want it any other way. Thank you for your courage on the court, Gabby.

Gabby is likely following her heart and doing what she believes is noble. She wants to right wrongs. She wants to be heard. She wants to make a difference. But the courageousness of the passionate youth has a way at times of coming back to haunt them in the future. Consequences. History is legion with examples. We may all have a few of our own. But this is really the crux of the intention for starting this thread. Do these kids really understand that their actions during our national anthem can, and does, cause hurt and disrespect to many others? I can only hope the answer to that question is NO. Frankly, I hope they get a pass for their "youthfulness" in the future. But, for some people, memories are long, and some will surely pay a price.

I hope Gabby is not one of them.

[Note: I was aware of Gabby's "protest" before I started this thread. I saw it. But I didn't want to mention her by name or make this solely about her. Since her name was eventually mentioned though, I thought it was only fair to clarify a bit.]

 

[Plebe]

Assuming the Williams post is accurate - I wonder if she realizes how disrespectful her protest is to guys like this and the thousands of others like him.

View attachment 16803

There are many veterans who would dispute the contention that a protest of the anthem is an insult to veterans. This was one of the valuable takeaways of the aftermath of the Kaepernick protest and the emergence of the #VeteransforKaepernick hashtag:
U.S. Veterans Are Coming To Colin Kaepernick's Defense In Droves | The Huffington Post

 

[Willie E.Gold]

1.What role did Blacks have in accepting 'The Star Spangled Banner''as the National Anthem that was written in 1814?Blacks weren't even allowed to vote until 1870.
2."Land of the Free"were Blacks free then? A lot of Americans don't feel free today.But they are condemned because some hypocrites(read the next line) insist their First Amendment rights over rule others rights.
3.During the Olympics,Gabby Douglas was crucified for not holding her hand across her heart.Guess what?Maya and Bird stood before one of their games without placing their hand across their heart and no one mentioned it.
4.Prior to 1969 it was illegal to Burn the American Flag,However,some White war protesters BURNED the American flag.There was no out cry like it is today about not standing or whatever.Why did it become legal after 1969?
5.Currently ,The Supreme Court ruled it is not illegal to Burn the Flag.
6.Americans have different culture experiences and respond differently to the Flag during sporting events.RESPECT that.
7.There is a Black National Anthem.I wonder if Whites would stand if they were attending an all Black event?

[ ]
Enjoy another Championship season.God Bless.

 

[JavaMan]

There are many veterans who would dispute the contention that a protest of the anthem is an insult to veterans...

Undoubtedly true. But that does not invalidate the feelings of the larger majority of veterans who may be disappointed/offended/insulted.

 

[UcMiami]

Undoubtedly true. But that does not invalidate the feelings of the larger majority of veterans who may be disappointed/offended/insulted.

I guess I would ask are those who are offended if they are equally offended by the flying/display of the confederate flag as an example - if they are then I will respect their disappointment/offense/sense of insult. Too often we glory in our sense of outrage over 'disrespect' for one ritual that we feel strongly about without recognizing other rituals that are equal 'disrespectful' to the same principles held by another.

 

[Plebe]

Undoubtedly true. But that does not invalidate the feelings of the larger majority of veterans who may be disappointed/offended/insulted.

It surely doesn't invalidate anyone's feelings, regardless of who's in the majority or the minority. But to be fair we don't even know that it's a majority. People tend to make broad-brush assumptions based largely on stereotypes of what they think veterans feel, or on what they themselves feel, or on anecdotal evidence of what people they know feel.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Assuming the Williams post is accurate - I wonder if she realizes how disrespectful her protest is to guys like this and the thousands of others like him.

View attachment 16803

I spent time, as a patient , in a Naval hospital with Marines and more recently I spent a few years visiting the wounded (terribly wounded) at Bethesda and the separate Walter Reed . (Bethesda and Walter Reed are now combined as Walter Reed in Bethesda)
Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guards are (in my opinion) the truest American. Those wounded earned the respect of ALL AMERICAN's. But like you and me they have diverse opinions. So, unless you personally know this Marine--you may be surprised to learn he'd respect Gabbys decision to silently protest ills she believes (whether real or not) exists. Personally I don't like it--but as the man says ill fight to the death for her (constitutional right) to protest. That is one reason some American fought an died.
She is NOT disrespecting me or this Marine (God Bless him)--she is protesting an ill she sees. She'd most likely would

1.What role did Blacks have in accepting 'The Star Spangled Banner''as the National Anthem that was written in 1814?Blacks weren't even allowed to vote until 1870.
2."Land of the Free"were Blacks free then? A lot of Americans don't feel free today.But they are condemned because some hypocrites(read the next line) insist their First Amendment rights over rule others rights.
3.During the Olympics,Gabby Douglas was crucified for not holding her hand across her heart.Guess what?Maya and Bird stood before one of their games without placing their hand across their heart and no one mentioned it.
4.Prior to 1969 it was illegal to Burn the American Flag,However,some White war protesters BURNED the American flag.There was no out cry like it is today about not standing or whatever.Why did it become legal after 1969?
5.Currently ,The Supreme Court ruled it is not illegal to Burn the Flag.
6.Americans have different culture experiences and respond differently to the Flag during sporting events.RESPECT that.
7.There is a Black National Anthem.I wonder if Whites would stand if they were attending an all Black event?

[ ]
Enjoy another Championship season.God Bless.[/QUOTE

Willie--Black Americans fought and died to take America from the British tyrant. The Anthem was selected by Congress and Black members i would assume voted of it. The Supreme Court accepted that burning the flag was accepted via the first amendment--after Americans (Black and White ) burned that flag (college kids) during the Vietnam war.
If you will look at Slavery around the world--google slavery in Canada--you will find that slavery exists in the USA, Canada, and every country around the world today. The Canadians passed laws against slavery in the early 1800, but slaves remained slaves until they died--here in the USA when Slavery was abolished--slaves were free. It is interesting to note that Native (First peoples) of Canada (some) practice slavery until mid 20th century (if I read it correctly).
North of the Mason/Dixon line--Black men were free men (in Connecticut) in the 1700's --there were some slaves-but in the North (like Canada) no plantations or other vast enterprises that made slaves economically feasible.
I don't like anyone protesting while MY and YOUR Anthem is played---but I will stand with you for your constitutional right to protest.
There are so many real problems here in the USA that will only be solved when we ALL work together to solve. Our differences are not what separates us --it's our Love of America that bonds us..

 

[stwainfan]

 

[vtcwbuff]

It surely doesn't invalidate anyone's feelings, regardless of who's in the majority or the minority. But to be fair we don't even know that it's a majority. People tend to make broad-brush assumptions based largely on stereotypes of what they think veterans feel, or on what they themselves feel, or on anecdotal evidence of what people they know feel.

Drop in on a VFW post and start a discussion. When it comes to protesting the anthem or the flag it really comes down to 3 simple questions -
1. Is the protest protected speech
2. Does the protest offend many people
3. Is it disrespectful to the majority of those that served

My answer is yes to all 3. For me the last question is the one that counts.

 

[lne001]

When the national anthem is played I stand, take off my hat if wearing one, and basically stand at parade rest. It would never enter my mind to place my hand over my heart. I highly dislike rituals, whether patriotic or not, and find those at sporting events to be particularly odious. I could care less how others observe this rite, as long as they are not truly disruptive, so whatever Gabby did is not a concern of mine. By the way I was in the US Army infantry from 1969-1971 (not that that really makes any difference).