OT: Heat - Thunder, who you got?

[21Huskies]

its not valid because you don't just become great overnight. one series shouldn't validate almost a decade of dominating play. those years of him putting up ungodly numbers and leading his team to amazing records are the validation, him winning a ring is the fruits of all of that.

4 wins doesn't make or break a guys career. i refuse to believe that his career is validated if he goes 20 ppg 43% shooting 5 rpg 5 apg and they win in a sweep because Shane Battier goes for 35ppg on 85 % from 3. just like i refuse to believe that he's a choker or 'can't get it done' or 'isn't wired like the great ones' if he goes 35ppg on 55% shooting with 8rpg and 8 apg and his team loses a few games by a point or 2 and they lose the series.

the thing people seem to forget is that they don't make it ANYWHERE near this point if it isn't for Lebron's play over 82 games and the playoffs. They get swept if he played like DWade played in the Boston series.

and either way, its a no win for the guy. if the Heat win, regardless of how he plays, the haters will say he needed the Wade/Bosh help and the refs and Stern and blah blah blah and if he loses he's back to being a choker til he goes nuts next year in the playoffs and they get back to the finals and everyone gets back on his banwagon again.

 

[8893]

Again, NOBODY IS SAYING THAT HE ISN'T GREAT. No one is saying that four wins make or break a career. 21, your rants are all based on the false premise that someone, somewhere believes that LeBron isn't great. That simply isn't the case. The debate has been whether he is or will be considered the greatest of all time. You have already anointed him, but others (including me) believe that it is reasonable to consider--as but one of many factors--whether he has ever led his team to a championship.

If he doesn't win a championship--especially after:

• Conspiring with two other all-stars, while still playing for Cleveland, to leave Cleveland once his contract expired and join them to create a team for the express purpose of winning multiple championships; and
• Predicting multiple championships.

I don't understand how it is unfair to consider that factor. No, it's not the only factor; but it is something to consider.

I think what really bothers you is that so many people don't like LeBron and root against him. That is different, and of course that's not rational. It's how people feel. Again, just like A-Rod. When you set yourself up and essentially say you are the greatest and you are going to dominate, many people are going to be rooting against you. That's why people are sports fans--to root for and against players and teams.

 

[21Huskies]

a) i don't think he's the greatest of all time, i think MJ is. I think he's the 2nd best player of all time.

b) i couldn't possibly care less if people like or dislike him. i have no personal opinion of the guy... just the player. i care about the way people analyze basketball and sports in general. we live in a world where people like jaynyce are the majority. if you walk in any sports bar in America you'll hear 20 Jaynyce's yapping... most of which have no clue about the game, only what they hear on tv the night before. its a lazy, backwards thinking society who is polluted by the media rather than by facts.

c) you also say noone is saying 4 wins will make or break a career and 2 posts up you say 'until he wins a championship, thats going to dog him'. which one is it? my other big beef is this idea that winning is something an individual has complete control over. he could SUCK and they could win the finals. he could be GREAT and they could lose. its not something he completely controls therefore its unfair to analyze him as an individual based on a team accomplishment.

 

[JaYnYcE]

Rambling off stats doesn't mean you know basketball. Just because you have your view of what makes someone great, the board doesn't need you preaching your propaganda in telling them that it has to be that way. The fact that you claim LeBron James as the 2nd best player of all time (and you live in Miami, if anyone forgot that) suggests that you are a prisoner of the moment, band wagon fan. Push your point of view, just keep my name out of your posts. Appreciate it fella.


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[21Huskies]

i don't think i know basketball anymore than you. i think i know the data more than you and i don't think i'm nearly as biased as you are. i always find it funny when people say 'rambling off stats doesn't mean you know more'. Stats are data, they are objective, they are what actually happens. while data can easily be manipulated, if you know how to analyze the data then you can have a much more educated debate than someone who is 'using their eyes'.

if Lebron sucks next week, i'll say he played badly... i don't care either way if they win or lose to be honest.

i use your name because i think you reflect a large % of the population, fella. don't get your feelings hurt... we're all big boys.

 

[JaYnYcE]

There are also variables that affect stats which is why, yes they are what happened, they don't necessarily tell the whole story. You can sit there forever and constantly pick at every arbitrary stat to reflect your argument. But none of it matters if he doesn't win a championship. He can show up and play his butt off. But if he doesn't get that ring, to you he's still the second best player ever. To the world, he's the best 3 time MVP that hasn't won a championship. To my knowledge, he'd be the only in his class if that were to happen.


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[21Huskies]

fair enough fella.

good talk today, you made a miserable day in the market go by a little quicker.

i hope the Heat sweep and Lebron goes 0-10 and fouls out of every game and he gets his ring to silence his critics.

 

[8893]

c) you also say noone is saying 4 wins will make or break a career and 2 posts up you say 'until he wins a championship, thats going to dog him'. which one is it? my other big beef is this idea that winning is something an individual has complete control over. he could SUCK and they could win the finals. he could be GREAT and they could lose. its not something he completely controls therefore its unfair to analyze him as an individual based on a team accomplishment.

If he doesn't win a championship, the fact that he hasn't is going to dog him--just as it is now--in any discussion of his rightful place in the pantheon of great players. It will not make or break his entire career; nor will it make him anything other than great. He is already great. He is on the short-list of all-timers. He may turn out to be the greatest of all time, and you and I agree that he hasn't gotten there yet.

I don't say winning is something an individual has complete control over, or that I am analyzing him solely on that basis. Again, it's but one factor. But in addition to all the individual stats, I believe that there is a mental aspect, a timing aspect, a rising-to-the-moment aspect, an influence-on-others aspect, a leadership aspect, a teammate aspect--whatever you want to call it, other than irrational or media-diven--that goes into the calculus when you are evaluating a player in a team sport, and that often tends to reflect itself in championships.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'll keep it short and simple.

Thunder in 6.

 

[UConnSwag11]

thunder in 6, deeper team and i think thabo can keep wade in control same with iblocka on bosh

 

[jorge34]

Heat in 6; NBA is all about match-ups, and the Heat match up very well against the Thunder (much better than they did against Boston). Miami can defend the perimeter, keep offensive players out of the lane, and rebound....James against Durant will be a very interesting matchup, as James is as good as advertised on defense, and Durant can't guard anyone.

Thunder have a huge advantage at the point, but if Wade and James do their jobs against Durant and Harden, Chalmers and to a lesser extent Cole will have to do just enough to harass Westbrook into bad shots, which is he prone to taking

I also think Perkins will be rendered useless in a series like this (no real post players to guard and he is not capable of sticking with Bosh on the perimeter), limiting the depth.

Finally, I think Miami is the much more physical team, and if motivated to do so, will dominate the boards.

I will be rooting OKC, but the smart money is on the underdog in this series.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Jordan tried 6 times and won 6 times. Olujuwon tried twice and won twice. If its your time, then its your time.

Jordan played more than 6 seasons & Olajuwon more than 2, they weren't trying the other times? I think Bill Russell is the only player in NBA history that would illustrate your point.

Point is by the time Jordan got to the finals it was his 7th season and he'd been shot down in the playoffs multiple times (lost in 1st round each of 1st 3yrs, lost to Detroit in semi's, then conf finals yrs 4-6). Of course there are exceptions (Celtics recent title), but its mostly true and something to base a prediction on. I HOPE OKC wins because I like their team and players better.

I do think its entirely possible that Durant rises to the occasion and performs on the big stage, although he does have a shy kid in there too so its a concern. Westbrook I think likely overcompensates. Meanwhile LeBron has very recently shown us (Boston series and especially game 6) that he is now willing to do whatever it takes to win including summoning the killer instinct from within. That is dominating my thinking about this series but then again I watched 100% of LeBron's playoof run vs maybe 50% of OKC's.

At least one of the first two games I think OKC runs Miami out of the gym (Heat have been lulled by slower and not as good opponents + OKC crowd is phenomenal), predictably if that happens they'll be an early corronation of OKC, but the real key is how/if Miami can adjust to or slow the speed.

 

[JaYnYcE]

You know what I meant. Yes Jordan played 14 years but he got to the finals six times and won six times. If he had any first time jitters, it didn't matter- he beat Magic and the Lakers to capture his first title.

 

[Dogdeacon]

You know what I meant. Yes Jordan played 14 years but he got to the finals six times and won six times. If he had any first time jitters, it didn't matter- he beat Magic and the Lakers to capture his first title.

Yes I got your point, but for fsakes get mine. It doesn't definitionally have to be the NBA finals where players try and fail. It could be any point of the playoffs. The Finals is relevant right now for the Thunder because that's where their key guys have never been before AND because those key guys are so young AND because they play in OKC, a small, small market. If this were a young Lakers team or Knicks team the concern about the bright lights would be much less. I'm saying this IS definitely a factor and it COULD be the deciding one and its the one on which I'm basing my prediction. But I hope I'm wrong.

Incidentally same 'gist of argument' is true about wondering if Durant will come 'up big' at end of game. Of course it doesn't necessarily have to be a buzzer beater or a game winning shot, but we all watch basketball and know where/when the 'dagger' type shots occur. For example in game 7 of Celtics series LeBron's 25' three was the dagger, just like Pierce hit a similar one in LeBron's mug in game 5. LeBron answered that and then some as he's done before in the conference finals. This time I think he doesn't wilt in the finals and for OKC to win they must withstand that as a team and have at least 2/3 of their big scoring guns have very good series.

 

[JaYnYcE]

I get your point, and OKC has tried and failed in the playoffs for 2 straight seasons. Just because they've never been to the finals shouldn't be an excuse if they were to fail, in MY opinion. Those boys know how to ball and they've been ballin' all season to get to this point. They beat quite possibly one of the best teams the NBA has seen in the past few years in 4 straight games. They look ready and hungry for that evasive chip.

GO THUNDER!!!

 

[sparky]

It will come down to the supporting cast of players. I like OKC , but hate the format. It should be 2/2/1/1/1.

LBJ can't do it all and Wade needs to play better. Westbrook needs to limit turnovers and distribute the ball as he did in the last series. I am a Celtic fan so I don't have a dog in the fight, but hope LBJ goes down.

 

[Sportsman5]

Home court goes to the Thunder and they are unbelievable at home. Miami is good at home, but the Thunder get a boost from the playoff crowd and the Heat don't even get the type of crowd the thunder get during the regular season. Lebron needs to have a HUGE series for Miami to win. If Durant and Lebron end up being a wash, than the rest of the roster ends up being in favor of OK by a lot. The thunder have Westbrook, Ibaka, Perkins, and Harden as impact players on offense, defense or both, as well as Sefolosha, Fisher, and Collison as nice role players. The heat have wade, bosh and chalmers as well as several decent role players. Chalmers puts up decent numbers, but I would almost prefer the combination of sefolosha and Fisher over him in a series like this. If wade doesn't get bogus foul calls, than he will be neutralized by the athletic and swarming defense of the Thunder. The thunder are more athletic and have better shot blockers than the celtics and he did very little in most of the games against the celtics. I'm not saying he won't put up decent numbers, but 19 points on 6/15 shooting will not do it. Bosh is still a question mark. He had a few offensive rebounds per game and got unbelievably lucky to hit a few 3 pointers, but certainly hasn't shown that he can dominate a game by any means. Ibaka/Perk will do a good job neutralizing him from putting up big numbers. It really does come down to Lebron. If he has several 40 point games where he's unstoppable and/or has something like 28 points, 16 rebounds and 13 assists, than the heat have a chance. If not, than this will be over in 6 games.

 

[babysheep]

Getting pumped! Reports say that Durant's feeling relaxed but focused, can't wait to see how fast he starts out the gate.

Drinking game anyone? Drink every time LBJ, DWade, KD or Westbrook score?

 

[UConn5]

I want the Thunder to win, I think the Heat will win.

I pray the thunder become the example going forward and not the heat. In the words of Noah... the heat are "Hollywood as fuc*" and havent won yet.

 

[Huskies4ever]

a) i don't think he's the greatest of all time, i think MJ is. I think he's the 2nd best player of all time.

Lebron will be an all-time great. He is an amazing basketball player. But, he isn't the second best player of all-time. Not yet......

 

[Scoe]

I got the Thunder in 7, the way its looking right now OKC could win in 5 games, but it is a series of adjustments so thats why I have the Sonics winning in 7.