OT: GOAT QB - its not Brady. | Page 2 | The Boneyard

OT: GOAT QB - its not Brady.

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Which quarterback is "the most talented" is a hard debate to have, obviously.

However, when all is said and done, Brady will have the greatest career resumé of any quarterback ever.

It's not really even all that close.

It takes some serious pretzeled logic to arrive at any other conclusion.
Bingo.

“Montana’s better because he never lost a Super Bowl.” Apparently, Montana gets credit for consistently losing earlier in the playoffs than Brady.

The arguments against Brady are so lazy and boring at this point that it isn’t even fun to argue against.
 
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Bingo.

“Montana’s better because he never lost a Super Bowl.” Apparently, Montana gets credit for consistently losing earlier in the playoffs than Brady.

The arguments against Brady are so lazy and boring at this point that it isn’t even fun to argue against.

Any argument to the contrary is a very obvious attempt to troll Pats fans.

It's not worth getting worked up over such a pathetically transparent act.

If the Pats win on Sunday, Brady will have won 3x as many Super Bowls as he's lost to the Giants. He's played in 8 Super Bowls in 16 seasons.

To go along with all the winning, there are also to his stats, MVPs, clutch moments etc etc.

Let fans of lesser teams cry into their milk.
 
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Bingo.

“Montana’s better because he never lost a Super Bowl.” Apparently, Montana gets credit for consistently losing earlier in the playoffs than Brady.

The arguments against Brady are so lazy and boring at this point that it isn’t even fun to argue against.
It's just jealous haters, that's all.

I do like the new accusation I saw hurled earlier today in this thread though: "Gronk's BLATANT use of PEDs". That's a good one, haven't hear that one yet.

Haters gonna hate.....
 
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I will always be in the camp that has Brady benefited from Belichick more than the other way around. Brady is one of the Top 10 QBs ever but he would be nowhere near where he is without Belichick. Belichick is the absolute master of adjustments, finding his player's strengths and putting them in the best position to do well. Whether he does so with or without cheating will always be debated. If he's clean, he is by far the best coach we've seen in any American sport (this coming from a Jets fan, mind you). The Patriots' offensive line was spectacular in pass protection for most of Brady's career. Nearly every big game Brady lost was because teams could pressure him. In my near 30 years of watching the NFL, no QB has consistently had as much time in the pocket as Brady has.

Under Belichick, the Brady-led offense has been a power running game, a vertical attack, and most famously a dink-and-dunk machine. Hell, sometimes that's the case on a week-to-week basis, let alone year by year. Most coaches don't even attempt adjustments that large, they stick with whatever system they came up with and believe in. The Patriots' defenses have always overachieved due to coaching (or cheating) as well.

Brady has enough talent and he's one of the smartest QBs ever to play but he's been the beneficiary of the greatest coach we've ever seen.
 
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I will always be in the camp that has Brady benefited from Belichick more than the other way around. Brady is one of the Top 10 QBs ever but he would be nowhere near where he is without Belichick. Belichick is the absolute master of adjustments, finding his player's strengths and putting them in the best position to do well. Whether he does so with or without cheating will always be debated. If he's clean, he is by far the best coach we've seen in any American sport (this coming from a Jets fan, mind you). The Patriots' offensive line was spectacular in pass protection for most of Brady's career. Nearly every big game Brady lost was because teams could pressure him. In my near 30 years of watching the NFL, no QB has consistently had as much time in the pocket as Brady has.

Under Belichick, the Brady-led offense has been a power running game, a vertical attack, and most famously a dink-and-dunk machine. Hell, sometimes that's the case on a week-to-week basis, let alone year by year. Most coaches don't even attempt adjustments that large, they stick with whatever system they came up with and believe in. The Patriots' defenses have always overachieved due to coaching (or cheating) as well.

Brady has enough talent and he's one of the smartest QBs ever to play but he's been the beneficiary of the greatest coach we've ever seen.

Whatever gets you through the night, man.

PS: you can say nearly everything you said here about Montana and Walsh
 
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I will always be in the camp that has Brady benefited from Belichick more than the other way around. Brady is one of the Top 10 QBs ever but he would be nowhere near where he is without Belichick. Belichick is the absolute master of adjustments, finding his player's strengths and putting them in the best position to do well. Whether he does so with or without cheating will always be debated. If he's clean, he is by far the best coach we've seen in any American sport (this coming from a Jets fan, mind you). The Patriots' offensive line was spectacular in pass protection for most of Brady's career. Nearly every big game Brady lost was because teams could pressure him. In my near 30 years of watching the NFL, no QB has consistently had as much time in the pocket as Brady has.

Under Belichick, the Brady-led offense has been a power running game, a vertical attack, and most famously a dink-and-dunk machine. Hell, sometimes that's the case on a week-to-week basis, let alone year by year. Most coaches don't even attempt adjustments that large, they stick with whatever system they came up with and believe in. The Patriots' defenses have always overachieved due to coaching (or cheating) as well.

Brady has enough talent and he's one of the smartest QBs ever to play but he's been the beneficiary of the greatest coach we've ever seen.

He benefits a lot from Belichick, but I don't think it's for the reasons you list above. The counter argument would be that with Brady, he hasn't had a lot of talent on offense to play with, until Gronk got there. Prior to that, he was throwing the ball to flotsam and jetsam. Compare to the receivers other QBs get. Next, you talk about the O-line, but that is much more about Brady than any of the players. Brady gets the ball out fast, under 2 seconds, makes the OL look good. All one has to do is look at the cast of characters on the OL. The LT is typically a high draft pick and the best of the bunch (Light and Solder) but the rest are typically UDFAs or low rounders. Players like Andrews, Waddle, Stephen Neal, Koppen. Plug and play.

Remember, Belichick has not been a head coaching success in the league without Brady, even though he had a stint at Cleveland and also went 5-13 with the Patriots prior to Brady stepping in.

Here's what people rarely ever mention when they talk about the Brady and Belichick connection: Continuity. The Patriots just have a wealth of experience because of all the coaches and Brady. when new players come in, it is easier for them to adapt when the QB and coach have command.

Read this article by Barnwell in ESPN and you'll see why Brady probably deserves most of the credit: The best Eagles-Patriots preview you'll read: Barnwell makes his Super Bowl pick

It's very long but here's the key passage:
"One of the reasons Foles might be able to enjoy some success on Sunday is that the Patriots' defense simply hasn't been very good in 2017. Raw numbers note that the Pats finished fifth in points allowed at 18.5 per game, which makes them look like a dominant defense. As I mentioned on Monday, New England simultaneously finished 31st in defensive DVOA, suggesting it is one of the worst defenses in the league.

How can a defense simultaneously be great and abysmal? Context. Raw numbers don't account for the fact that the Patriots' offense makes its defense's life as easy as possible. The average Patriots drive on offense included a league-high 6.2 plays, keeping their defense fresh and off the field for long stretches of time. The New England defense faced just 172 possessions this season, the fifth fewest in football and 12 below the league average. Contrast that to the Jaguars, who finished second in points allowed and faced 204 possessions. That's nearly three additional games worth of drives to defend.

In addition, that incredible Patriots offense rarely turns the ball over and delivers the defense consistently excellent field position. Only the Chiefs turned the ball over less frequently than the Patriots on a per-possession basis in 2017. Brady & Co. turned over the ball just 6.9 percent of the time, substantially lower than the league average (11.4 percent). Only two teams went three-and-out less frequently.

As a result, the defense almost never faced a short field. The average defense in 2017 had to face just over 17 possessions that began on its own side of the field. The Patriots went up against just five of those possessions, and two of them were the Chiefs and Dolphins kneeling at the end of their victories. (If we remove drives in the final two minutes to get rid of kneel-downs, the Patriots faced three, and the league average was 15.5.)

During the Brady-Belichick era (2001-2017), the average defense has faced just under 368 short fields. Every team besides the Patriots has faced a minimum of 311 possessions beginning on their side of the field. Belichick's defenses have needed to defend only 227 short fields. The second-place Falcons are closer to the Ravens in 24th than they are to the Patriots. This has been a huge competitive advantage for the Pats."

Barnwell's #s show that the Patriots' D is greatly helped by the offense, much more than any other NFL defense.

Think about the 2nd Giants-Patriots Super Bowl. Despite Brady breaking the NFL record for consecutive completions in that SB, the Giants doubled up the Patriots on Time Of Possession. That is the real way to beat the Patriots. Eat up their defense by running the ball well, short passes. That keeps Brady off the field. In that SB, when Brady got on the field he drove the team for a 60 yard drive, 80 and 96.
 

MrP

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I think that Pats fans are the ones who throw the term out there incessantly. (Google - Brady GOAT) so if it is going to be out there, it should be open to discussion and rebuttal.

That's not the same as thinking sports era comparisons are overall pretty useless.

Let me guess, Pats fan, amirite?

I was merely pointing out that you posted a rebuttal to the “TB = GOAT” thing, then in your very next post you agreed that the very conversation you started is pointless. Kinda funny.

I live 30 minutes south of Boston and don’t even own a Patriots coozie. Not a huge football fan in general but I do watch the Pats with friends and family and hear about them incessantly on the radio.

Incidentally, there’s a fireplace store down the road from me called “August West Chimney & Fireplace” - no relation I assume?
 

August_West

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I was merely pointing out that you posted a rebuttal to the “TB = GOAT” thing, then in your very next post you agreed that the very conversation you started is pointless. Kinda funny.

I live 30 minutes south of Boston and don’t even own a Patriots coozie. Not a huge football fan in general but I do watch the Pats with friends and family and hear about them incessantly on the radio.

Incidentally, there’s a fireplace store down the road from me called “August West Chimney & Fireplace” - no relation I assume?


No relation but I love the cut of that soot sloggers jib.
 
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Oh so it's ok to use that metric when it favors a New York fan but it can't be used by a Boston fan. Nice try.

Are you thick? It's OK to use that metric when comparing two teams. You can't use it to say he won more Superbowl's so he is a better player. Or I guess Eli is a better QB than Aaron Rodgers.
 

intlzncster

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I agree. So Pats fans need to stop with the incessant GOAT business, and if they want to claim GOAT , put up with counter views on why he's not.

Also Montana didnt cheat.

Eh Rice cheated. Put illegal stickum on his gloves. Every pass thrown from Montana to Rice is cheating and should therefore be vacated.

I think all those old guys are damn glad they don't have the scrutiny of today's players.
 

intlzncster

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Any argument to the contrary is a very obvious attempt to troll Pats fans.

Haha look who started this thread. Auggie is a master.
 

August_West

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Haha look who started this thread. Auggie is a master.

C'mon!!

Joe Montana is an all time great and a fantastic case can be made for GOAT status by a lot of metrics.
 
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8 Super Bowl appearances , 14 division titles, 11 AFC championships... with modern roster instability says something..
 

intlzncster

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C'mon!!

Joe Montana is an all time great and a fantastic case can be made for GOAT status by a lot of metrics.

Oh absolutely. But in terms of intent, that part of the argument is almost a strawman. hahaha

I'd like to point out that it's not just Patriots fans who call him that, but much of the media, players, and other associated dignitaries.
 
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I agree. So Pats fans need to stop with the incessant GOAT business, and if they want to claim GOAT , put up with counter views on why he's not.

Also Montana didnt cheat.
Jerry rice was a notorious stickum user.
 
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Jerry rice was a notorious stickum user.

Montana himself talked about spraying the offensive lineman jerseys with a slick substance every game, not to mention the front office that was cheating the salary cap.
 
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I agree. So Pats fans need to stop with the incessant GOAT business, and if they want to claim GOAT , put up with counter views on why he's not.

Also Montana didnt cheat.
Sounds like a lot of hate. The "incessant GOAT business" is balanced by the just as incessant hate business. Youre just playing the opposite side of the same coin. If he were doing this on your team or you were a Pats fan youd be singing a different tune.
 

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