OT: Big Dig and lessons that can be applied to Hartford.

[CL82]

I thought this article on the Big Dig was interesting. Certainly it has some lessons to think about regarding Hartford, including the notion that going around Hartford could be a cheaper/better alternative than rebuilding or sinking 91 and 84 in approximately their current locations.

Link

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Is this being considered in Hartford? How could you reroute one or both highways around the city without creating a massive commuting nightmare for anyone who works in the city? Moving one or both would mean those commuting from east/west and/or north/south would have to get off and get into the city on a main road or smaller highway, which wouldn't solve the problem. It would seem that putting 91 underground for a small portion of its route through Hartford would be the best idea and it would not have nearly the amount of obstacles that the Big Dig had.

 

[CL82]

Is this being considered in Hartford? How could you reroute one or both highways around the city without creating a massive commuting nightmare for anyone who works in the city? Moving one or both would mean those commuting from east/west and/or north/south would have to get off and get into the city on a main road or smaller highway, which wouldn't solve the problem. It would seem that putting 91 underground for a small portion of its route through Hartford would be the best idea and it would not have nearly the amount of obstacles that the Big Dig had.

It was my own observation. I don't know if it is being considered.

I suspect that it could be made to work, but I don't have the data. I suspect that if you separate Hartford traffic from though traffic, things would improve, at least for a time, but I have close to no expertise or experience in the traffic management.

 

[Ha Who]

Is this being considered in Hartford? How could you reroute one or both highways around the city without creating a massive commuting nightmare for anyone who works in the city? Moving one or both would mean those commuting from east/west and/or north/south would have to get off and get into the city on a main road or smaller highway, which wouldn't solve the problem. It would seem that putting 91 underground for a small portion of its route through Hartford would be the best idea and it would not have nearly the amount of obstacles that the Big Dig had.

I think it was only being considered to replace the viaduct

 

[DudeOfCT]

At one time there were two additional spurs planned that would connect 691 and 291 on each side of the city, which would essentially create a loop around the city. Your post is timely because the state is going to refurbish the 84 corridor in Hartford, possibly in conjunction with upgrades to the train tracks that will be required when metro-north service starts next fall. They also plan to extend the busway east of the river.

 

[DudeOfCT]

I should add that extending the busway east of the river includes connecting storrs with the rent (or whatever they are calling it now).

 

[Ha Who]

At one time there were two additional spurs planned that would connect 691 and 291 on each side of the city, which would essentially create a loop around the city. Your post is timely because the state is going to refurbish the 84 corridor in Hartford, possibly in conjunction with upgrades to the train tracks that will be required when metro-north service starts next fall. They also plan to extend the busway east of the river.

Right. The loop was many years ago. The viaduct choices are replace, a street level highway or a big dig variation. My guess is the street level version

 

[CTMike]

Burying 91 and 84 within Hartford city limits would be ideal... Though prohibitively expensive.

 

[UCFBfan]

At one time there were two additional spurs planned that would connect 691 and 291 on each side of the city, which would essentially create a loop around the city. Your post is timely because the state is going to refurbish the 84 corridor in Hartford, possibly in conjunction with upgrades to the train tracks that will be required when metro-north service starts next fall. They also plan to extend the busway east of the river.

Isn't the loop the reason for the overpasses that go to no where at the Rt 9/84 exchange? Wasn't that supposed to be where 291 would reconnect with 84?

Here's an interesting article about it: http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/xc-stack.html

 

[Adios]

Is that bridge stack going to get us into the Big Ten?? It is near Farmington, so...

 

[TRest]

Isn't the loop the reason for the overpasses that go to no where at the Rt 9/84 exchange? Wasn't that supposed to be where 291 would reconnect with 84?

Here's an interesting article about it: http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/xc-stack.html

Yes. I remember riding my bicycle up there 40 years ago.

 

[huskypantz]

Looks like the boring technology is much more advanced since the Big Dig effort completed. Seattle's tunnel is 2 miles long and slated at 4.25 b, although they had a 2 year delay and I don't know if the related costs are included in that number.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Isn't the loop the reason for the overpasses that go to no where at the Rt 9/84 exchange? Wasn't that supposed to be where 291 would reconnect with 84?

Here's an interesting article about it: http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/xc-stack.html

Yes, the loop highway around Hartford was one the highways that was either partially completed or entirely sunk as people began to push back against the interstate highway system in the 1960's. I believe folks in W Hartford killed the section of I-291 between Bloomfield and where Route 9 ends today. I-84 is also a classic example as that highway was supposed to run straight from Hartford to Providence instead of Northeast to I-90 in Sturbridge.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I thought this article on the Big Dig was interesting. Certainly it has some lessons to think about regarding Hartford, including the notion that going around Hartford could be a cheaper/better alternative than rebuilding or sinking 91 and 84 in approximately their current locations.

Link

A complete loop around the city keeping I-91 and I-84 out of the city entirely may have been feasible in the 1950's and 1960's when land in the suburbs was readily available and relatively cheap. A big reason it could have not happened then is that for the highways to by-pass the city core, money money would have had to been sunk into public transit and people would still need to get downtown for work and there was no interest in investing in public transit back then.

Today, it would be more expensive due to land acquisition costs to build a loop that it would be to re-build I-84 where it is.

Best guess, I-84 will be build at the surface or possibly slightly below grade as its cheaper to do so that a tunnel and cheaper to maintain in the future than an elevated viaduct. Eliminating I-84 all together with a 'grand boulevard' just does not work do to the traffic volume.

 

[CL82]

A complete loop around the city keeping I-91 and I-84 out of the city entirely may have been feasible in the 1950's and 1960's when land in the suburbs was readily available and relatively cheap. A big reason it could have not happened then is that for the highways to by-pass the city core, money money would have had to been sunk into public transit and people would still need to get downtown for work and there was no interest in investing in public transit back then.

Today, it would be more expensive due to land acquisition costs to build a loop that it would be to re-build I-84 where it is.

Best guess, I-84 will be build at the surface or possibly slightly below grade as its cheaper to do so that a tunnel and cheaper to maintain in the future than an elevated viaduct. Eliminating I-84 all together with a 'grand boulevard' just does not work do to the traffic volume.

I'm sure you are right, but take a look on Google maps or Bing maps. There are some areas that aren't developed that seem to be well placed for a loop, perhaps due to abandoned plans in the past. For example, exit 55 on 84, seems overbuilt for its current use and is pointed right at 91. Existing connectors could be used to carry traffic into Hartford and may be sufficient since it would be only Hartford bound traffic and not through traffic. (Of course you'd need a bridge across the river which I'd assume is pretty costly compared to just putting a surface level highway in it's current foot print.)

Regarding the surface level highway, one of the stated goals the project is to reconnect Hartford to the waterfront. A limited access highway, built on the current footprint doesn't do that.

 

[DudeOfCT]

There are some great stories online about all these weird connectors to nowhere. At one time there were plans to have a half dozen or more interstate highways through and around Hartford, including something like a route 485 that would be in a tunnel all the way through Hartford. The 84/86/384 fiasco is just one of a whole bunch of crazy stuff.

 

[HuskyDogArt]

At one time there were two additional spurs planned that would connect 691 and 291 on each side of the city, which would essentially create a loop around the city. Your post is timely because the state is going to refurbish the 84 corridor in Hartford, possibly in conjunction with upgrades to the train tracks that will be required when metro-north service starts next fall. They also plan to extend the busway east of the river.

I've heard the busway is a failure...They need Commuter Rail from Waterbury to Vernon (or beyond)

 

[HuskyDogArt]

At one time there were two additional spurs planned that would connect 691 and 291 on each side of the city, which would essentially create a loop around the city. Your post is timely because the state is going to refurbish the 84 corridor in Hartford, possibly in conjunction with upgrades to the train tracks that will be required when metro-north service starts next fall. They also plan to extend the busway east of the river.

291 was supposed to be from 91 in Rocky Hill to 84 in Manchester, via the western suburbs, 691/384/86 was supposed to go from Wethersfield to 84 in East Hartford (near where 384 starts now), but the towns didn't want it. (I was against it, because the woods around where the 384 would join 84 was my motorcycle place... I was only 8/9 back then)

 

[ElGuapo]

Here is the Rocky Hill split on Google Maps.

https://goo.gl/maps/HkkMdWhYHEM2

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I'm sure you are right, but take a look on Google maps or Bing maps. There are some areas that aren't developed that seem to be well placed for a loop, perhaps due to abandoned plans in the past. For example, exit 55 on 84, seems overbuilt for its current use and is pointed right at 91. Existing connectors could be used to carry traffic into Hartford and may be sufficient since it would be only Hartford bound traffic and not through traffic. (Of course you'd need a bridge across the river which I'd assume is pretty costly compared to just putting a surface level highway in it's current foot print.)

Regarding the surface level highway, one of the stated goals the project is to reconnect Hartford to the waterfront. A limited access highway, built on the current footprint doesn't do that.

A lot of Connecticut's current highways reflect proposed highways that were never built. I found map online. Further south, for example, the odd left side spur off of I-84 in Southington just before I-691 was supposed to be the start for a divided highway running right down Route 10 through Cheshire and then merging with I-91 in North Haven via what is now Route 40. Not sure how that was stopped; but, it woudlha ve destroyed Cheshire. The Trout Brook Drive exit off of I-84 in West Hartford was supposed to lead to an express highway (Rte 189) running up to Bradley Airport. That, along with I-291 between the CT River and the I-84/Rte 9 interchange was killed by West Hartford residents. Exit 11 off of I-84 in Newton, which is also over engineered, was supposed to be a highway linking upper Fairfield County with New Haven via Route 34 ending in New Haven via the highway that was just removed. How to get that highway over the Housatonic River (Stevenson Damn) and through downtown Derby (who downtown back in the 1960's was very vibrant) ended that idea.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Regarding the surface level highway, one of the stated goals the project is to reconnect Hartford to the waterfront. A limited access highway, built on the current footprint doesn't do that.

I-91 is not going anywhere. Hartford will have to settle for building more decks over it like the one near the Founders Bridge and Constitution Plaza to connect to the river. CT does not have the money to build a tunnel bury I-91 not with the need to replace the I-84 viaduct in Hartford, the Mixmaster in Waterbury (I-84/Rte 8), widening I-84 from Waterbury to the NY State line, and maintaining an overworked I-95 from New Haven to Greenwich along with mass transit objectives.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

I've heard the busway is a failure...They need Commuter Rail from Waterbury to Vernon (or beyond)

One of the big concerns I had with the busway is that it was built on the right-of-way for the rail lines. Should Amtrak find a very large pot of gold in Washington DC and get support for the 'inland' Acela route running from NYC to Boston via Danbury, Waterbury, Hartford, and Providence, the busway will have to be sacrificed for that expansion. Even if that does not come to fruition, commuter rail along the same route between Springfield and New Haven may also result in the same. Very poor long-term planning.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

As a slow growth state way unimportant in national politics and with zero important, influential Senators and Congressmen, obtaining big federal $ will be a massive challenge for Hartford both in state and nationally. Where's an I-91/I-84 enhancement rank compared with ever continuing I-95 Greenwich/ New Haven enhancements, commuter rail from New Haven to/from Hartford, ongoing Waterbury I-84/ Rt 8 clustermess enhancement, Waterbury / Danbury I-84 widening?

 

[Ha Who]

As a slow growth state way unimportant in national politics and with zero important, influential Senators and Congressmen, obtaining big federal $ will be a massive challenge for Hartford both in state and nationally. Where's an I-91/I-84 enhancement rank compared with ever continuing I-95 Greenwich/ New Haven enhancements, commuter rail from New Haven to/from Hartford, ongoing Waterbury I-84/ Rt 8 clustermess enhancement, Waterbury / Danbury I-84 widening?

The viaduct is at the end of its life, so this is not an "enhancement"

Also, as long as everyone is interested in a history lesson, look up Beatrice Fox Aurebach and I-84

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

The viaduct is at the end of its life, so this is not an "enhancement"

Beauty's and priorities remain in the eyes of the beholders. One man's replacement / fix of a botched or purported end-of-life project is another's enhancement. With limited federal transportation $ available, minimal Congressional influence, and low growth versus some larger and bigger electoral states, the question of federal and in-state transportation priorities similarly remains.