Lance Armstrong Doping (OT) | The Boneyard

Lance Armstrong Doping (OT)

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alexrgct

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As much as I'd like to be on my high horse about cheating and PEDs, I just have a tough time caring. Barry Bonds hitting a baseball is one of the most amazing things I've seen in sports. Rafa Nadal, who I firmly believe uses PEDs, has given a ton to the sport. I have a hard time believing Bolt is clean, there have been rumors about Tiger, and the Lance story is widely known. Who exactly doesn't dope? Maybe Roger Federer? Maybe?
 

sarals24

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Yeah, it's tough to care that much, especially when the list of substances is so arbitrary.

Nadal??? Say it ain't so.....
 

UcMiami

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I just end up getting tired of the persecution of athletes - either catch em in the act or let it go. The guy last really competed years ago and fully retired two years ago. You tested him thousands of times and for whatever reason he came back clean EVERY time.
It gets even worse when we end up spending millions of dollars on court cases, not about the drugs but about possible lies about the drugs.
I don't like PEDs and I support whatever testing gets implemented, but ...
 
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I just end up getting tired of the persecution of athletes - either catch em in the act or let it go. The guy last really competed years ago and fully retired two years ago. You tested him thousands of times and for whatever reason he came back clean EVERY time.
It gets even worse when we end up spending millions of dollars on court cases, not about the drugs but about possible lies about the drugs.
I don't like PEDs and I support whatever testing gets implemented, but ...
Now if they have "sample B" still on ice, and can perform a real test, then do it. Otherwise I'm with you, either catch them of forget it. Last word on 11pm news was that he was going to appeal as to whether they had the right to revoke the titles.
 
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So you test a guy a zillion times and he's clean; yet you convict him of doping. I know nothing about the testing procedures for all those years, but you would have to be some super, duper smart cheat to never, ever get caught.
 

alexrgct

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Yeah, it's tough to care that much, especially when the list of substances is so arbitrary.

Nadal??? Say it ain't so.....
Can't prove it, but his physique, his injuries, and the way he lost weight and definition in late 2009 after his first major knee injury and then gained it back pretty rapidly, are all very consistent with PEDs. Great player, but I'm skeptical. And I'm not the only one by any stretch.
 

sarals24

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I don't really follow tennis that much, I just think he's good looking :)
 
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Over the years I've gone through something like the stages of grief, but for juicers.

Denial. "[My favorite athletes] are not using PEDs. You just don't like them and are jealous of their success."
Anger. "This is ridiculous! How could [favorite athlete] allow himself to stoop so low?"
Depression. "Why bother following the sport if the winners are using..."
Acceptance. "The winner used PEDs. But many (and in some sports, virtually all) of his competitors are also using PEDs. It's cheating, but in the end the most talented and hardest-working athletes generally still win out." :)

That last bit deserves some more emphasis. Some people believe in a false dichotomy, where you are either PED-free and a hard worker, or a PED-user who is "taking the easy road." That's nonsense; PED users have to work just as hard to maintain themselves at the pinnacle. Many of the PEDs let them train harder, in fact, by improving recovery time. All of this isn't strictly healthy, of course, but it is what it is.
 
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So you test a guy a zillion times and he's clean; yet you convict him of doping. I know nothing about the testing procedures for all those years, but you would have to be some super, duper smart cheat to never, ever get caught.

You actually have to be really stupid to get caught. Micro dosing EPO is impossible to catch. HGH not possible.

They have 10 former teammates who are willing to testify that they observed him doping. This is all pretty straight forward.
 
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Blood transfusions of your own blood are really difficult to detect. An extra liter of blood will do wonders in the third week of a stage race.
 

Fishy

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Too many prominent cyclists have tested positive for various substances to say that you have to be stupid to be caught.

And I don't think this is all straightforward.

I'm not sure Armstrong had a choice here. The group that declares that you're guilty is the one who will sit in judgement of your arbitration. You bring a knife to a gunfight and then they take the knife - winning is not a possible outcome.

I had the chance to see Travis Tygart speak once - he is purely deranged. He's not a normal human being and his comments leading to this point have largely been unhinged. Their supposed efforts to clean up a particular sport involves threatening current athletes that they believe they can tag for PEDs with 'prosecution' unless they commit to testifying against a former athlete.

End result - current athletes they believe to be dirty are allowed to continue to compete.

But the end game is more political and aimed towards justifying their own existence than anything else. I think the judge that dismissed Armstrong case against the USADA offered the same thoughts as I have - their goals and methods are more than a little murky.
 
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Their methods are murky because sometimes you have to get a little murky to catch a cheater like Lance. His lawyers never fought fair.

Actually, cyclists are pretty stupid in general. Lance is actually a pretty smart guy.

With his resources, with his association with Dr. Ferrari and the smarts to take the right stuff at the right time, there is no excuse for getting caught. And if you are taking the right stuff and you have a team built around concealing your guilt then it's extremely easy to get away with it. Nobody else had a the infrastructure that he did.

And he has tested positive. In '00 or '99 but the matter was conveniently thrown out, "saddle sores".. Please.

I guess the ten different witnesses who saw him dope and confessed to doping themselves don't count for anything. All of these guys are Americans, all of them. I guess it must be some sort of French conspiracy. It was pretty easy to engage in character assasination against Hamilton, Landis, his old mechanic, his old soigneur. But I guess you can't character assasinate, George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer, Dave Zabriskie, Frankie Andreu, Jonathan Vaughters and god knows who else they had lined to testify.. All of those people have no interest in lying, they have too much to lose. They all have lucrative and successful side businesses.

Every single guy he beat was doping. I guess he was the only guy that was clean, every single one but him. Sure.

Whether you think Tygart is deranged or not is pretty irrelevant. Lance is perhaps the biggest cheater in sports history. He did do a lot of good, but he also used the Cancer thing as a shield in the past as well.

Too many prominent cyclists have tested positive for various substances to say that you have to be stupid to be caught.

And I don't think this is all straightforward.

I'm not sure Armstrong had a choice here. The group that declares that you're guilty is the one who will sit in judgement of your arbitration. You bring a knife to a gunfight and then they take the knife - winning is not a possible outcome.

I had the chance to see Travis Tygart speak once - he is purely deranged. He's not a normal human being and his comments leading to this point have largely been unhinged. Their supposed efforts to clean up a particular sport involves threatening current athletes that they believe they can tag for PEDs with 'prosecution' unless they commit to testifying against a former athlete.

End result - current athletes they believe to be dirty are allowed to continue to compete.

But the end game is more political and aimed towards justifying their own existence than anything else. I think the judge that dismissed Armstrong case against the USADA offered the same thoughts as I have - their goals and methods are more than a little murky.
 
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ZooCougar - you are amazing. Statements like :Actually, cyclists are pretty stupid in general don't win lots of points with me. Your comments about how supposedly easy it is to hide are laughable. Lastly, allegations (some by known liars and cheats) and rumors of allegations do NOT constitute evidence. So they claim to have 10 witnesses - who are they and what do they say.
I have no idea whether Lance doped or not - but this I do know - one of his accusers (Lemond) in fact has a better time up Tourmelet.
 
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ZooCougar - you are amazing. Statements like :Actually, cyclists are pretty stupid in general don't win lots of points with me. Your comments about how supposedly easy it is to hide are laughable. Lastly, allegations (some by known liars and cheats) and rumors of allegations do NOT constitute evidence. So they claim to have 10 witnesses - who are they and what do they say.
I have no idea whether Lance doped or not - but this I do know - one of his accusers (Lemond) in fact has a better time up Tourmelet.

You're basically parroting the same Lance talking points that we have heard over the past few years. And anyone who read Victor Conte's testimony knows that you basically have to be an idiot to get caught.

Everyone knows who most of the witnesses are. They are the same guys who were suddenly removed from the US Olympic Cycling Team at the last minute this summer the same guys who were his teammates back in the day. Hincapie, DZ, Leipheimer, Vandevelde etc.. We just don't know who else they have.

Hamilton and Landis were liars, but so is Lance. So there you have it.

And it is extremely easy to not get caught. Anyone who follows cycling knows this. Alot of really good stuff is undetectable in the right quantities (EPO., Testosterone etc.), blood transfusions are undetectable if done right. HGH-untestable.

In order to catch these people you have to get busted by the police like David Millar was. He also has "never tested positive" but served a two year suspension. Or they have to miss enough testing events and/or lie about their whereabouts.

You get to miss three tests before there is even a problem! Please.

The best thing about this is that Greg Lemond has been completely vindicated.

How do you like them apples?
 
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Oh and congratulations to Greg Lemond.

The only American to ever win the Tour de France.
 
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You actually have to be really stupid to get caught. Micro dosing EPO is impossible to catch. HGH not possible.

They have 10 former teammates who are willing to testify that they observed him doping. This is all pretty straight forward.


Willing to testify? Let's see some actual testimony.
 
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Willing to testify? Let's see some actual testimony.

Apparently the USADA is going to disclose everything.

They even have the B Samples from 1999 that were all positive for EPO. This was before they were smart enough to micro dose.

They also have positives fom 2009/10.
 

sarals24

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They clearly have something and Armstrong knows it. This way he gets to "decide" not to continue with the arbitration instead of being foud guilty and raked over the coals by his peers.

Usually, when there's smoke, there's fire. (so many fire and coal references today, I know.) For example, look at the Geno sexual harrassment case that was such a big deal (to us) at the beginning of the summer. No one else has stepped forward to say that he did the same to them, and most people said it was completely out of character for him.

In Armstrong's case, there have been so many accusations from so many people, some of whom have nothing to gain from this, that it's hard to believe there isn't something to it.

I understand the idea that "everybody dopes", but Armstrong made a ton of money, lots of it from the US Postal Service, from winning. So it's hard to feel bad for him.

Does anyone know if he will have to return his winnings?
 
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Hey zoo - can you explain why the Feds dropped their case? If it is all such a "slam dunk" obvious that even you KNOW...I'd have thought a couple million dollar investigation would have led to something. I have no idea whether Lance did or didn't dope - but I'd like to believe that the fed investigation would have FAR more info than anything you proclaim to know and they apparently didn't have enough evidence to proceed.
 

sarals24

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Because it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal case. This kind of case requires less burden of proof.
 
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Sarah - I'm not sure I buy that. Are you saying the standard to be allowed to tarnish ones name should be lower?
 

sarals24

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Well, he could have gone through the arbitration if he didn't want his name tarnished.
 

sarals24

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"If its charges are upheld, the agency — a quasi-governmental organization that oversees antidoping mostly in Olympic sports — also could levy a lifetime ban on him that would cover cycling and any other sports that are signatories to the World Anti-Doping Code.
The case has already led to Armstrong’s being suspended from competing in triathlons organized by the World Triathlon Corporation. He has focused on triathlons since retiring from cycling last year. "
Another difference from the federal investigation is that the antidoping agency’s bar to charge and eventually punish Armstrong is not as high.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/14/sports/lance-armstrong-faces-new-doping-charges.html
 
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