FSU, ACC In It For The Long Haul

[UConn9604]

This...

Also, I know your fanbase loved the fact that lawsuit basically traded Syracuse for Virginia Tech. I have read on UConn boards years ago.

...has no basis in fact.

What traded Syracuse for Virginia Tech was that Virginia had the power to kill expansion that didn't include Virginia Tech, and Virginia's Gov. Mark Warner (a Rockville, Conn., native) made it clear that Virginia would not vote for any expansion that left Va. Tech on the sidelines.

Because UNC and Duke were deadset against expansion, every other team in the ACC at the time had veto power -- expansion required a >3/4 vote, and with two "no"s off the bat, expansion required the other 7 to vote in lockstep.

Gov. Warner refused, unless Va. Tech was added, and that refusal is precisely what traded Syracuse for Va. Tech.

 

[upstater]

This...

...has no basis in fact.

What traded Syracuse for Virginia Tech was that Virginia had the power to kill expansion that didn't include Virginia Tech, and Virginia's Gov. Mark Warner (a Rockville, Conn., native) made it clear that Virginia would not vote for any expansion that left Va. Tech on the sidelines.

Because UNC and Duke were deadset against expansion, every other team in the ACC at the time had veto power -- expansion required a >3/4 vote, and with two "no"s off the bat, expansion required the other 7 to vote in lockstep.

Gov. Warner refused, unless Va. Tech was added, and that refusal is precisely what traded Syracuse for Va. Tech.

And ever since then Duke and UNC have been trying to add schools to return the conference to a true 8x8 round robin that mirrors the old ACC and old BE.

 

[CTMike]

We can talk facts till we are blue in the face (and we have)... But if out overall perception stinks, in some small part because of that lawsuit, then : accept it, FIX IT, and move on. Jeez I for one appreciate the outside perspective that Frank and others bring, because we are too in love with ourselves to realize that there is a TON of work left to do to correct these misconceptions. Pitt should be equally to blame for the lawsuit but, well, they aren't, and they are safe. Again, this is just one overall factor in what creates a perception. Not the whole perception, or the deciding factor. But we can't afford ANY misconceptions. Not till we are in a different conference.

 

[upstater]

We can talk facts till we are blue in the face (and we have)... But if out overall perception stinks, in some small part because of that lawsuit, then : accept it, FIX IT, and move on. Jeez I for one appreciate the outside perspective that Frank and others bring, because we are too in love with ourselves to realize that there is a TON of work left to do to correct these misconceptions. Pitt should be equally to blame for the lawsuit but, well, they aren't, and they are safe. Again, this is just one overall factor in what creates a perception. Not the whole perception, or the deciding factor. But we can't afford ANY misconceptions. Not till we are in a different conference.

Assuming of course this is what's keeping UConn out, which I and many people here contest. So, what are you saying anyway? Fix something that many of us believe is a figment of imagination? The whole reason I post on this is because I believe people are chasing specters.

If you want to fix ANYTHING, put all support behind football. Coaching, promotion, stadium, etc. That's what you do. Forget the rest. It's all about football.

 

[CTMike]

I'm just saying- leave no stone unturned. Leave no reason for anyone to question our merit on anything. Win first and foremost. Graduate kids. And if anyone out there is thinking "well yeah but they were real jerks about that lawsuit all those years ago"... I disagree with that sentiment, but how do we get them to change their mind? Lets figure out how to fix... well, every perceived slight, not just this. Is the answer an apology from Bloomer? If that's what it takes to change sentiments then I'm all for it.

 

[The Funster]

You know, we may have loved that VTech got the call instead of Syracuse but not because we wished ill will on Syracuse but because we valued Syracuse as a conference mate and rival. For a few years I had felt very strongly that UConn fans and Cuse fans were kind of kindred spirits. I still don't have bad feelings for Syracuse except for those fans who have obviously enjoyed dancing on our alleged grave and of course those fans who love to come here and lecture us as to why we've been orphaned by the CR process. You think you enjoy some sort of superiority over us but the reality is that no matter what conference either of us are in we're passing you. I for one wish to extend to you a hearty double middle finger. Keep your lectures to yourself.

 

[UPitt]

From a Pitt perspective, I find the lawsuit talk to be very interesting. I agree if you look deep into the facts you will find that Pitt, Cuse, and Uconn all had relatively equal parts in pushing the lawsuit forward and in making negative public statements about the ACC. But at the time of the lawsuit, I can remember thinking that Uconn was spearheading the lawsuit. I remember being jealous that with Uconn spearheading the lawsuit that Uconn would be the team to reap most of the lawsuit benefits (money, games, ACC invite). 10 years later, I agree that Pitt and Syracuse played a large (and probably equal) part in the lawsuit, but right or wrong the perception at Pitt is still that Uconn spearheaded the lawsuit and Pitt and Syracuse were followers.

Again speaking from a Pitt perspective, I can remember feeling deserted and being very angry with Miami for leaving. I remember thinking that I completely understand VT joining the ACC. I remember not really caring that BC had left for the ACC. From a fan perspective, I never felt bad blood with the ACC or BC or VT. Most Pitt fans only felt bad blood with Miami, and it fizzled away within a couple years because Miami is 2000 miles away and we never heard from them again.

I think Uconn is in a unique situation with BC because you have rivalries in athletics, recruiting, acedemics, social activities, location, and much more. Therefore, you remember the little things and hold grudges because thats what rivalries are all about. If BC would have been WVU, I'm sure every Pitt and WVU fan would remember every work spoken for years to come.

I can not speak for the heart of ACC country, but I truely think that the lawsuit is an excuse only being used by the fan bases and not truely being discussed by the presidents and ADs. I do not believe that BC or anyone else threatened to veto Uconn because of the lawsuit. I do think that BC threatened to veto because of territory, and I think Uconn has every right to be upset, but this takes place in every conference. FSU, Clemson, and GT are automatic vetos in the SEC. Not sure how seriously, but Pitt was being consider for the Big 10 a few years back and PSU said no.

 

[alsacs]

You know, we may have loved that VTech got the call instead of Syracuse but not because we wished ill will on Syracuse but because we valued Syracuse as a conference mate and rival. For a few years I had felt very strongly that UConn fans and Cuse fans were kind of kindred spirits. I still don't have bad feelings for Syracuse except for those fans who have obviously enjoyed dancing on our alleged grave and of course those fans who love to come here and lecture us as to why we've been orphaned by the CR process. You think you enjoy some sort of superiority over us but the reality is that no matter what conference either of us are in we're passing you. I for one wish to extend to you a hearty double middle finger. Keep your lectures to yourself.

First off, I have been respectful here and on my board. I haven't danced on any UConn graves and wish Rutgers was the school that got shafted as their internet fanbase wants to make themselves out to be this great Northeast power when they have been the definition of mediocre. I think UConn was better than Rutgers for the B1G and have posted that on numerous occasions.

Second, I don't act superior over anybody I am giving my opinion which is something you don't agree with fine, but do not tell me I am lecturing you and your fanbase when I have I stated some of my post is opinion.

Third, if I thought I was talking with a superiority I wouldn't be analyzing objectively go read my post in is realignment dead thread and tell me I am talking down to UConn. You are exactly the fan I don't feel bad for when if you checked my posts here and on the SU board you don't find me taunting your fanbase, but because you want to target me I honestly don't care what you think and if you don't like my posts I recommend you ignore them, and not take them personally. However, I doubt you have the class to do so as your message is completely lacking in it. I don't expect your fanbase to like my posts, but you should be able to have a discourse and reasonable discussions when I don't say anything nasty. Instead, you are the one bringing the nasty, and try to blame it on me. Your posts in this thread are a disgrace to the avatar of Bill Raftery. I respect the fact CtMike is being respectful without agreeing with me even Upstater isn't attacking me like you.

 

[alsacs]

From a Pitt perspective, I find the lawsuit talk to be very interesting. I agree if you look deep into the facts you will find that Pitt, Cuse, and Uconn all had relatively equal parts in pushing the lawsuit forward and in making negative public statements about the ACC. But at the time of the lawsuit, I can remember thinking that Uconn was spearheading the lawsuit. I remember being jealous that with Uconn spearheading the lawsuit that Uconn would be the team to reap most of the lawsuit benefits (money, games, ACC invite). 10 years later, I agree that Pitt and Syracuse played a large (and probably equal) part in the lawsuit, but right or wrong the perception at Pitt is still that Uconn spearheaded the lawsuit and Pitt and Syracuse were followers.

Again speaking from a Pitt perspective, I can remember feeling deserted and being very angry with Miami for leaving. I remember thinking that I completely understand VT joining the ACC. I remember not really caring that BC had left for the ACC. From a fan perspective, I never felt bad blood with the ACC or BC or VT. Most Pitt fans only felt bad blood with Miami, and it fizzled away within a couple years because Miami is 2000 miles away and we never heard from them again.

I think Uconn is in a unique situation with BC because you have rivalries in athletics, recruiting, acedemics, social activities, location, and much more. Therefore, you remember the little things and hold grudges because thats what rivalries are all about. If BC would have been WVU, I'm sure every Pitt and WVU fan would remember every work spoken for years to come.

I can not speak for the heart of ACC country, but I truely think that the lawsuit is an excuse only being used by the fan bases and not truely being discussed by the presidents and ADs. I do not believe that BC or anyone else threatened to veto Uconn because of the lawsuit. I do think that BC threatened to veto because of territory, and I think Uconn has every right to be upset, but this takes place in every conference. FSU, Clemson, and GT are automatic vetos in the SEC. Not sure how seriously, but Pitt was being consider for the Big 10 a few years back and PSU said no.

Sorry to tell you but Syracuse WAS NOT part of the lawsuit and were not followers. If your a Pitt fan how can't you realize that? Your better point to make was that VPI was an original plaintiff against the conference that offered them membership a month later and had to pathetically withdraw from the lawsuit, but instead didn't and tried to make SU and Pitt equal followers of UConn.

 

[The Funster]

First off, I have been respectful here and on my board. I haven't danced on any UConn graves and wish Rutgers was the school that got shafted as their internet fanbase wants to make themselves out to be this great Northeast power when they have been the definition of mediocre. I think UConn was better than Rutgers for the B1G and have posted that on numerous occasions.

Second, I don't act superior over anybody I am giving my opinion which is something you don't agree with fine, but do not tell me I am lecturing you and your fanbase when I have I stated some of my post is opinion.

Third, if I thought I was talking with a superiority I wouldn't be analyzing objectively go read my post in is realignment dead thread and tell me I am talking down to UConn. You are exactly the fan I don't feel bad for when if you checked my posts here and on the SU board you don't find me taunting your fanbase, but because you want to target me I honestly don't care what you think and if you don't like my posts I recommend you ignore them, and not take them personally. However, I doubt you have the class to do so as your message is completely lacking in it. I don't expect your fanbase to like my posts, but you should be able to have a discourse and reasonable discussions when I don't say anything nasty. Instead, you are the one bringing the nasty, and try to blame it on me. Your posts in this thread are a disgrace to the avatar of Bill Raftery. I respect the fact CtMike is being respectful without agreeing with me even Upstater isn't attacking me like you.

Go piss up a rope

 

[upstater]

From a Pitt perspective, I find the lawsuit talk to be very interesting. I agree if you look deep into the facts you will find that Pitt, Cuse, and Uconn all had relatively equal parts in pushing the lawsuit forward and in making negative public statements about the ACC. But at the time of the lawsuit, I can remember thinking that Uconn was spearheading the lawsuit. I remember being jealous that with Uconn spearheading the lawsuit that Uconn would be the team to reap most of the lawsuit benefits (money, games, ACC invite). 10 years later, I agree that Pitt and Syracuse played a large (and probably equal) part in the lawsuit, but right or wrong the perception at Pitt is still that Uconn spearheaded the lawsuit and Pitt and Syracuse were followers.

Again speaking from a Pitt perspective, I can remember feeling deserted and being very angry with Miami for leaving. I remember thinking that I completely understand VT joining the ACC. I remember not really caring that BC had left for the ACC. From a fan perspective, I never felt bad blood with the ACC or BC or VT. Most Pitt fans only felt bad blood with Miami, and it fizzled away within a couple years because Miami is 2000 miles away and we never heard from them again.

I think Uconn is in a unique situation with BC because you have rivalries in athletics, recruiting, acedemics, social activities, location, and much more. Therefore, you remember the little things and hold grudges because thats what rivalries are all about. If BC would have been WVU, I'm sure every Pitt and WVU fan would remember every work spoken for years to come.

I can not speak for the heart of ACC country, but I truely think that the lawsuit is an excuse only being used by the fan bases and not truely being discussed by the presidents and ADs. I do not believe that BC or anyone else threatened to veto Uconn because of the lawsuit. I do think that BC threatened to veto because of territory, and I think Uconn has every right to be upset, but this takes place in every conference. FSU, Clemson, and GT are automatic vetos in the SEC. Not sure how seriously, but Pitt was being consider for the Big 10 a few years back and PSU said no.

I agree with much of what you say.

Just a couple things to add. The things that were said by Cuse (which wasn't party to the suit) were much more insulting than anything coming out of Connecticut or Nordenberg's mouth. UConn did spearhead it, the AG did and it was filed in Ct. As for BC, it really isn't a matter of a rivalry or grudge since the 2 schools hardly played in football and in basketball, there was never much competition. Rather, it's a matter of public record. There are 4 different instances which we cite to show that BC has been obstructing UConn.

1. Bob Ryan reported in 2002 that BC's AD was very threatened by UConn.
2. When BC left for the ACC, it did so while presiding over the BE's reorganization.
3. When Cuse and Pitt left, the BC AD came out in the press and stated that he had blackballed UConn's candidacy in committee (prior to the offers and the presidential votes), and that furthermore, expansion was goaded by ESPN.
4. We read reports back in November that as Uconn was "penned in" (to quote Louisville's AD) for the ACC, that again BC's new AD rose up to obstruct and blackball UConn. The Presidents and ADs at Duke and North Carolina were incredulous with BC and thought they were being ridiculous. No matter that the SEC avoids in-state competition (except in Mississippi, Alabama and Tennessee), the ACC does not, and the four Tobacco Road schools especially (within 1 hour of each other) thought BC was being ridiculous. Besides, I consider the SEC's blocks to be more about TV markets than anything else. Obviously, BC and UConn do not share the same TV market--nor even the same state.

By the way, PSU was a big backer of Pitt to the B1G. You may be confusing their scheduling squabble with PSU's backing.

 

[upstater]

Sorry to tell you but Syracuse WAS NOT part of the lawsuit and were not followers. If your a Pitt fan how can't you realize that? Your better point to make was that VPI was an original plaintiff against the conference that offered them membership a month later and had to pathetically withdraw from the lawsuit, but instead didn't and tried to make SU and Pitt equal followers of UConn.

Thanks for reminding me that V Tech was offered a month after suing the ACC! This underscores our points. Remember, the BE didn't even sue the ACC. It was instead the four schools.

Still, you're missing the back story on Cuse's fight with BC. It exists.

 

[The Funster]

First off, I have been respectful here and on my board. I haven't danced on any UConn graves and wish Rutgers was the school that got shafted as their internet fanbase wants to make themselves out to be this great Northeast power when they have been the definition of mediocre. I think UConn was better than Rutgers for the B1G and have posted that on numerous occasions.

Second, I don't act superior over anybody I am giving my opinion which is something you don't agree with fine, but do not tell me I am lecturing you and your fanbase when I have I stated some of my post is opinion.

Third, if I thought I was talking with a superiority I wouldn't be analyzing objectively go read my post in is realignment dead thread and tell me I am talking down to UConn. You are exactly the fan I don't feel bad for when if you checked my posts here and on the SU board you don't find me taunting your fanbase, but because you want to target me I honestly don't care what you think and if you don't like my posts I recommend you ignore them, and not take them personally. However, I doubt you have the class to do so as your message is completely lacking in it. I don't expect your fanbase to like my posts, but you should be able to have a discourse and reasonable discussions when I don't say anything nasty. Instead, you are the one bringing the nasty, and try to blame it on me. Your posts in this thread are a disgrace to the avatar of Bill Raftery. I respect the fact CtMike is being respectful without agreeing with me even Upstater isn't attacking me like you.

After a year without posting, you bless our board with this heartfelt gem:

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/for-what-it-is-worth.38484/page-6#post-588934

Just the first in a number of rambling lectures describing to us how we're not good enough but should be happy, I guess, with our puny accomplishmnets when compared to a TITAN of college FB like Syracuse.

Seriously, save me the lectures, save me your sage advice, save me your complete disdain of facts and save me the faux outrage and hurt feelings.

You're a numpty and my Bill Raftery avatar blows farts in your general direction.

 

[alsacs]

Thanks for reminding me that V Tech was offered a month after suing the ACC! This underscores our points. Remember, the BE didn't even sue the ACC. It was instead the four schools.

Still, you're missing the back story on Cuse's fight with BC. It exists.

Listen I don't despise UConn and truthfully feel a little bad for your legit fans as SU-UConn is one of our biggest basketball rivalries and we have played a lot on the hardwood. I am not saying SU isn't innocent in what they said about BC. I am just saying from conservations I have had the impetus of the lawsuit has fallen on UConn and you have made some legit points that underscore the fact their are misconstrued facts out there that need to be corrected. I don't believe the lawsuit should fall squarely on UConn, I am just saying that is how it is perceived, and the UConn leadership I would hope your fanbase has attempted to have an audience and clear any problems. I think VPI gets a pass on the fact they were plaintiffs in the suit and had to embarrassingly withdraw from suing the conference that threw them a lifeline. I always bring that up to Hokie friends, but my point overall was that UConn should attempt to rectify that lawsuit and fallout if they want to be considered in the future for ACC membership.

Eventually, IMO the ACC will add a 16th team when Notre Dame(I think 2026) will become the 15th football school. I think the contenders will be UConn, Cincinnati assuming they aren't in other major conferences or West Vriginia. I think the WVU fanbase attempts to destroy the ACC will have an irrevocable harm on them joining ever. UConn and Cincinnati are the other 2 schools that will be considered and each has good value, but if UConn hasn't cleared up any potential damage from that lawsuit even UConn fans don't realize it there is any damage then the ACC will likely take Cincinnati since both schools will be perceived as equal. Disagree with me if you think otherwise, but what I am saying is UConn should do everything it can to make sure other fans don't think the lawsuit is a negative for your school.

 

[alsacs]

After a year without posting, you bless our board with this heartfelt gem:

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/for-what-it-is-worth.38484/page-6#post-588934

Just the first in a number of rambling lectures describing to us how we're not good enough but should be happy, I guess, with our puny accomplishmnets when compared to a TITAN of college FB like Syracuse.

Seriously, save me the lectures, save me your sage advice, save me your complete disdain of facts and save me the faux outrage and hurt feelings.

You're a numpty and my Bill Raftery avatar blows farts in your general direction.

Again, my overall point in those messages was that UConn's basketball brand is not the same as its football brand. I don't think any UConn fan would dispute this, and secondly I said for as bad as Syracuse football was from 2005 to 2009 UConn football hadn't surpassed SU nationally. Good god, you are the one who has acted classless in your posts towards me. Don't agree with me, but the fact you said I was with acting with a superiority and lecturing you shows how touche you are.

Most UConn fans would objectively say I have been respectful and stuck to my opinions which UConn fans may disagree with completely/partially. You obviously feel differently, but don't try telling me I have been rude. I have been respectful in all my posts except the one responding to your classless remarks my way. I will continue to be respectful on this board except when I am targeted unjustifiably which you did.

 

[UPitt]

I misspoke about Syracuse being part of the lawsuit. I meant to group the lawsuit and following quotes and comments all as one. I would say the quotes and comments are made by Pitt following the lawsuit caused more damage than being part of it.

 

[alsacs]

After a year without posting, you bless our board with this heartfelt gem:

http://the-boneyard.com/threads/for-what-it-is-worth.38484/page-6#post-588934

Just the first in a number of rambling lectures describing to us how we're not good enough but should be happy, I guess, with our puny accomplishmnets when compared to a TITAN of college FB like Syracuse.

Seriously, save me the lectures, save me your sage advice, save me your complete disdain of facts and save me the faux outrage and hurt feelings.

You're a numpty and my Bill Raftery avatar blows farts in your general direction.

Did you read this one? Something tells me no.
http://the-boneyard.com/threads/possible-future-conference-realignment-scenarios.38997/

 

[upstater]

but my point overall was that UConn should attempt to rectify that lawsuit and fallout if they want to be considered in the future for ACC membership.

Eventually, IMO the ACC will add a 16th team when Notre Dame(I think 2026) will become the 15th football school. I think the contenders will be UConn, Cincinnati assuming they aren't in other major conferences or West Vriginia. I think the WVU fanbase attempts to destroy the ACC will have an irrevocable harm on them joining ever. UConn and Cincinnati are the other 2 schools that will be considered and each has good value, but if UConn hasn't cleared up any potential damage from that lawsuit even UConn fans don't realize it there is any damage then the ACC will likely take Cincinnati since both schools will be perceived as equal. Disagree with me if you think otherwise, but what I am saying is UConn should do everything it can to make sure other fans don't think the lawsuit is a negative for your school.

I can't disagree with you more here.

 

[upstater]

I misspoke about Syracuse being part of the lawsuit. I meant to group the lawsuit and following quotes and comments all as one. I would say the quotes and comments are made by Pitt following the lawsuit caused more damage than being part of it.

Apparently, those comments caused no damage at all!

 

[alsacs]

I can't disagree with you more here.

Fair enough, I am interested in what though.

 

[upstater]

Fair enough, I am interested in what though.

Everything there. It rests on the supposition that the lawsuit matters at all. I've already explained this and given evidence.

 

[Nostical]

Look, we can surmise all we want about the effect of the lawsuit but I'm more inclined to confirm what alsacs has been saying (and I've posted this before). A good friend of mine who is also a very good friend of Jim Boeheim was playing golf with him after Jim had attended his first ACC meeting. My buddy called me later that day-knowing I'm a huge UConn backer--to tell me Jim said one of the things that surprised him was the level of vitriole (not his word, lol) at UConn about "that lawsuit". "It won't go away". He also said "based on what I heard down there, I don't think UConn's getting in." Which, by the way, he wasn't happy about. Dismiss it if you will, but that's pretty much a verbatim account.

 

[upstater]

Look, we can surmise all we want about the effect of the lawsuit but I'm more inclined to confirm what alsacs has been saying (and I've posted this before). A good friend of mine who is also a very good friend of Jim Boeheim was playing golf with him after Jim had attended his first ACC meeting. My buddy called me later that day-knowing I'm a huge UConn backer--to tell me Jim said one of the things that surprised him was the level of vitriole (not his word, lol) at UConn about "that lawsuit". "It won't go away". He also said "based on what I heard down there, I don't think UConn's getting in." Which, by the way, he wasn't happy about. Dismiss it if you will, but that's pretty much a verbatim account.

Who is vitriolic? UNC? Virginia? Duke? Wake Forest? They are the backers. Miami and BC, well no surprise there. Who else cares? Enough to keep out VT and Pitt? No. Heck, Nordenburg said more than any.

 

[upstater]

Look, we can surmise all we want about the effect of the lawsuit but I'm more inclined to confirm what alsacs has been saying (and I've posted this before). A good friend of mine who is also a very good friend of Jim Boeheim was playing golf with him after Jim had attended his first ACC meeting. My buddy called me later that day-knowing I'm a huge UConn backer--to tell me Jim said one of the things that surprised him was the level of vitriole (not his word, lol) at UConn about "that lawsuit". "It won't go away". He also said "based on what I heard down there, I don't think UConn's getting in." Which, by the way, he wasn't happy about. Dismiss it if you will, but that's pretty much a verbatim account.

Also, you may want to give Jeff Jacobs your sources, because yours might be better than his. He reported that Cuse's AD Gross was looking to ice out UConn, and that his sources inside Syracuse's AD office said that Boeheim was working over Coach K. for the same reason.

 

[RS9999X]

No ones ever suggested that the ACC sacrificed any money by leaving UConn out. Whenever I hear the lawsuit I laugh. Talk to me about squeezing out the Big 12 and taking Pitt and SU. Talk to me about Raycom and their 3 stations and operations in Ohio including Cincy, and in the Louisville market. They put up 35% of the contract. What was there due diligence? We know what it was.

Gene Deflippo and UConn have a long history going back to his stay at Nova. UConn embarrassed the man over and over. The flipper bailed on Nova Football knowing he couldn't put together a team to upgrade football back in 96. He drove BC into the dirt.