"Edsall left the cupboard bare"

[Carl Spackler]

Come on Cohen, don't you know that everybody's innocent in Shawshank, and everybody's a championship winnign football expert in here. LOL.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I can only think of 2 OL who were drafted.

Who else other than Thomas and Beatty? Am I missing someone? The only two who were drafted are earning millions and have stuck. That's good however you cut it.

With Thomas, it's another story. Combined high school and college experience is only 3 years. He had a huge learning curve.

As for the 7 step drops, when you repeatedly drop back 7 or 9, the edge rushers come up field each time. They WILL get by the tackles, and the tackles can't do anything about it, especially when the QB is taught to drop back instead of step up in the pocket. Whitmer never had a short 3 step drop, never steps up in the pocket, anything to offset the edge rushers, or to close the gaps between the lineman.

On the QB drops, I don't know anyone, that actually coaches a 9 step drop. Not sure where you get that. Not questioning it, just not something that I'm familiar with. In playing offensive tackle, one of your goals, in pass protection is drive that pass rusher down field (or upfield) depending on how you're looking at it, and then give him a solid shove way past the pocket. A tackle isolated one on one on a pass rusher in a passing block, on the edge of the formation, shouldn't get beat to the inside. that's their primary responsibility. if they've driven the pass rusher outside shoulder and upfield past the QB, or have held their ground physically, and not be driven backward they've done their job properly. It's unrealistic to expect a block to be sustained for more than a few seconds at most.

You also seem to be trying to combine the QB drop with the blocking. THe QB foot drops, if the offense is designed with that to be important, are tied to the pass receiver's feet, not the OL's feet and blocking scheme. If it's a 7 step drop, when that QB hits his drop, that should be the first part of his throwing motion and the ball should be coming out to a receiver who's 7 steps off the LOS (if you're that anal about it in coaching) should have him in a certain spot on the field.

 

[freescooter]

If you continually rely on your defense to secure a lead to win games, you are going to lose many of them. Possession of the ball, with the lead on the scoreboard, is how games are won.

Teams that win the turnover battle also have a distinct advantage. Now I'll grant you we turned the ball over too often but that doesn't let the defense off the hook. Six INTs? Sorry, but that is awful. And getting the ball with a short field, especially when your offense is your weak link can have multiple positive benefits. The biggest, in my mind is creating situations where you have to drive 30 or 20 or 15 yards for points. UConn seemed to always be in a position where a 70+ yard drive was required.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm not too familiar with Don Brown's schemes, it's pretty hard to figure out looking at it with limited access. I do know the guy is a raving lunatic, and I mean that in a good way. For real, a good way. The guy is a great guy. But football wise, I"ve always had the impression that his defenses play with his personality, and that's chaos. What I mean by that, is that creating confusion, in the offense is priority #1. When Edsall was head coach, emphasizing turnovers was priority #1. Sit back and play space control, keep in front of you defense and wait for mistakes, and strip the ball. We were fantastic at stripping balls, and creating fumbles on defense, adn you get good at that, by practicing it constantly. You have to. My guess, is that when DB took over the defense, the amount of practice time spent on practicing stripping balls out of an offensive players hands went down. As for the # of interceptions, it's hard to draw conclusions there, becuase interceptions tend to be very hard to categorize as to reason. The best corners, don't usually have the ball thrown their way, and when you play man-man coverage vs. zone coverages, it can be harder to pick off balls, and we have played against a pretty decent lineup of college quarterbacks in the past two seasons.

 

[upstater]

On the QB drops, I don't know anyone, that actually coaches a 9 step drop. Not sure where you get that. Not questioning it, just not something that I'm familiar with. In playing offensive tackle, one of your goals, in pass protection is drive that pass rusher down field (or upfield) depending on how you're looking at it, and then give him a solid shove way past the pocket. A tackle isolated one on one on a pass rusher in a passing block, on the edge of the formation, shouldn't get beat to the inside. that's their primary responsibility. if they've driven the pass rusher outside shoulder and upfield past the QB, or have held their ground physically, and not be driven backward they've done their job properly. It's unrealistic to expect a block to be sustained for more than a few seconds at most.

You also seem to be trying to combine the QB drop with the blocking. THe QB foot drops, if the offense is designed with that to be important, are tied to the pass receiver's feet, not the OL's feet and blocking scheme. If it's a 7 step drop, when that QB hits his drop, that should be the first part of his throwing motion and the ball should be coming out to a receiver who's 7 steps off the LOS (if you're that anal about it in coaching) should have him in a certain spot on the field.

I know all this. I watched the QB all last year. He NEVER steps into the pocket. Not even on long drops. Never a 3 step drop.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I know all this. I watched the QB all last year. He NEVER steps into the pocket. Not even on long drops. Never a 3 step drop.

again, fair enough. ONe of the things I love about football, is that there is so much to look at, and everybody gets different impressions of what's happening. I'd love to have a video projector (did I just date myself) and sit down and figure out what you're talking about as it's explained.

All I can say in response, is that what you're saying makes no sense to me, and I'm not questioning it, just that I don't understand what you're seeing. I saw a QB that, for the first time, in years, was able to do all three - 3,5,7 step drop and ball out. His biggest problem, IMNSHO, was deciding when NOT to release the ball, and again IMNSHO, when a QB is being coached to 3,5 or 7 drop from under center and let it fly, the only time you're going to have a QB stepping up into a pass protection pocket, is when he's failed to release the ball when he was supposed to (b/c the receivers weren't open, or the defensive coverage changed or something) and the play is actually broken down, and the QB is now buying time with his feet.

and with that said, there were plenty of times last year, where I saw a QB in a 3,5, or 7 step drop but failed to release the ball and got creamed, while trying to step up and or avoid a rush. happened more later in the year, when he wasn't throwing as much into bad places.

All of the other stuff that you've mentioned all points to one thing. Our offensive line foot speed was pretty slow last year. Us fans, all we can do is argue back and forth, as to why that was, coaching, decision making, playing slow in your head on the OL, or simply not having very fast feet and footwork talent wise, a combination of both? We can argue all day. Plenty of evidence in any view.

The fact is our OL played slow, AND we had failed blocking assignments from the backfield on many, many occasions as well. WE got to block a hell of a lot better this year both from the OL unit, and the offense as a whole. Having receivers that can create separation and catch the ball is a big thing too. And a QB that can throw on target, and a running back that is regular threat to either run over the first guy, or make the first guy miss......

 

[upstater]

again, fair enough. ONe of the things I love about football, is that there is so much to look at, and everybody gets different impressions of what's happening. I'd love to have a video projector (did I just date myself) and sit down and figure out what you're talking about as it's explained.

All I can say in response, is that what you're saying makes no sense to me, and I'm not questioning it, just that I don't understand what you're seeing. I saw a QB that, for the first time, in years, was able to do all three - 3,5,7 step drop and ball out. His biggest problem, IMNSHO, was deciding when NOT to release the ball, and again IMNSHO, when a QB is being coached to 3,5 or 7 drop from under center and let it fly, the only time you're going to have a QB stepping up into a pass protection pocket, is when he's failed to release the ball when he was supposed to (b/c the receivers weren't open, or the defensive coverage changed or something) and the play is actually broken down, and the QB is now buying time with his feet.

and with that said, there were plenty of times last year, where I saw a QB in a 3,5, or 7 step drop but failed to release the ball and got creamed, while trying to step up and or avoid a rush. happened more later in the year, when he wasn't throwing as much into bad places.

All of the other stuff that you've mentioned all points to one thing. Our offensive line foot speed was pretty slow last year. Us fans, all we can do is argue back and forth, as to why that was, coaching, decision making, playing slow in your head on the OL, or simply not having very fast feet and footwork talent wise, a combination of both? We can argue all day. Plenty of evidence in any view.

The fact is our OL played slow, AND we had failed blocking assignments from the backfield on many, many occasions as well. WE got to block a hell of a lot better this year both from the OL unit, and the offense as a whole. Having receivers that can create separation and catch the ball is a big thing too. And a QB that can throw on target, and a running back that is regular threat to either run over the first guy, or make the first guy miss......

We're just emphasizing different things. If you're always signalling to the D the same step drops, if the safest place on the field (the pocket) is never used, if you're running on 1st and passing on 3rd, you give the D a huge advantage. I saw edge rushers close on Whitmer constantly, within seconds, because he was way back there, and the tackles were chasing the rushers.

 

[Jimmy Serrano]

Who said I was supporting PP? You missed the point totally. Just like Serrano who is such a savant that he's coached 10 Super Bowl champions. What the heck was arrogant about my post? The point was, and you can ascribe the problem however you want, that the difference in the records between our past teams and the PP teams is not particularly extreme. I named 2 games. and feel free to lay them all at the feet of PP if you want, where in one the D was in"disarray", not Brown's fault, right, just PP? And in the other a very reliable kicker sucked in a game we lose in OT. Should any of those fg attempts not have been tried? Even if the O performs better, which you can argue would have avoided the need for all of those attempts, all I was saying is the record is not all ascribable to this or that and the record was only marginally worse than in past years.

And the cupboard on O was bare in key positions. I don't recall who made what comments, but there have been countless comments about how many drops the receivers have had. My big problem was the same as everyone else's. The O was totally predictable, they used the wildcat when they shouldn't have, and the worst constant bad use of personnel was not making RG a much bigger part of the attack. As for talent recognition, RE totally failed to see Easley's talent for the longest time, and PP used NW in ways most people here had pleaded for in RE's last year. That does not mean I liked the offense. I pay a lot of money for my seats and if you think I love calling the plays ahead of time because I know what's coming, ah, no. But I'm also not a fair weather fan. I'm not quitting my tickets, as a bunch of people here threatened last year. It's my university and I support them. Hiring and firing coaches is somebody else's job, so I just go to the games and share thoughts occasionally on performance on this board.

Uh, chief, I didn't say your post was arrogant. I was joking with Carl (hope you took it as a joke Spackler).

 

[Carl Spackler]

We're just emphasizing different things. If you're always signalling to the D the same step drops, if the safest place on the field (the pocket) is never used, if you're running on 1st and passing on 3rd, you give the D a huge advantage. I saw edge rushers close on Whitmer constantly, within seconds, because he was way back there, and the tackles were chasing the rushers.

See, this is what I love. I just didn't see it that way, and this would get entertaining, if we were in the same room with a video projector and all kinds of cutups to play back and forth.

I think that for the most part, our tackles played pretty well in typical pass rush situations, and exhibited pretty good lateral foot speed. It was bad early on, but I think they improved later, and Bennett and Friend were actually pretty good 1-1 in pass protection isolations late in the season. I don't think it was common for our tackles to be beaten in a 1-1 iso to the outside shoulder. I think that in many cases, what may appear to have been an edge rusher, was actually a player that shot through one of the G-T gaps as a result of missed assignment. Whether it be a blocking call from the QB, or the C, and was a failure along the line, or in many cases was a failure from the backfield to pick up a block, resulted in there actually being no pocket for Whitmer to step into, should he not release the ball quick enough on his foot drop. It was a mess, our blocking, a hot mess. I give Whitmer a lot of credit, he got rocked over and over, and is tough as nails that kid, got to protect him this year though. I can recall pretty clearly some plays against Syracuse, where the blocking failures were not on the LOS, but from the backfield. There were plenty of blocking failures all season long, it actually did get better, but we were limited along the line in other ways physically too. A hot mess.

It's got to click this year, though. No excuses.

 

[cohenzone]

Uh, chief, I didn't say your post was arrogant. I was joking with Carl (hope you took it as a joke Spackler).

Sorry if I misunderstood. The syntax must have confused me, chief.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Uh, chief, I didn't say your post was arrogant. I was joking with Carl (hope you took it as a joke Spackler).

I often don't know who's talking to who, or why, or what about, or if it's important or not, and I'm not upset about anything. It's highly probably that cohen was referring to me as a savant, because well, you know - I am. LOL.

 

[cohenzone]

Come on Cohen, don't you know that everybody's innocent in Shawshank, and everybody's a championship winnign football expert in here. LOL.

Don't you ever talk about Shawshank that way.

 

[freescooter]

Carl,

I agree that they probably didn't practice stripping the ball as often under Brown. But the interceptions are a mystery. When you have two pro prospects at the corners you would think that you wouldn't rank near the bottom of the entire NCAA in picks. We were something like 109th. One was a pick six. In 2010 for comparison, we had 20 picks, 5 of which were returned for tds. We averaged 24 yards per pick, vs 12 last year. In close games, and we had several, those things can be the difference. It seemed that we never had a short field. A pick at mid field returned to the opponents 25, or a pick at the 25 returned for 6 can really turn the tide. We did none of that. We played some good quarterbacks, but not that good.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Interceptions are hard to figure out. I completely agree. It's hard to identify trends and why. There are plenty of reasons that could explain why the INT's were down. For me personally, we happened to play against a really solid group of senior and/or experienced QB's for the most part in the past two seasons, and that more than anything is probably the best explanation. Bridgewater, Nassib, the guy from WMU, NC State QB, BJ Daniels, CIncy QB, Pitt QB was a senior too i think right? Geno Smith. How many of those guys are in the NFL now or on their way?

I suppose the way to test that theory, would be to chart who the INT's came against in the past 2 seasons. My guess is that they didn't come against those guys as much as the Buffalo's, Maryland, Iowa St, etc. I'm not going to take the time to do that though.

 

[upstater]

See, this is what I love. I just didn't see it that way, and this would get entertaining, if we were in the same room with a video projector and all kinds of cutups to play back and forth.

I think that for the most part, our tackles played pretty well in typical pass rush situations, and exhibited pretty good lateral foot speed. It was bad early on, but I think they improved later, and Bennett and Friend were actually pretty good 1-1 in pass protection isolations late in the season. I don't think it was common for our tackles to be beaten in a 1-1 iso to the outside shoulder. I think that in many cases, what may appear to have been an edge rusher, was actually a player that shot through one of the G-T gaps as a result of missed assignment. Whether it be a blocking call from the QB, or the C, and was a failure along the line, or in many cases was a failure from the backfield to pick up a block, resulted in there actually being no pocket for Whitmer to step into, should he not release the ball quick enough on his foot drop. It was a mess, our blocking, a hot mess. I give Whitmer a lot of credit, he got rocked over and over, and is tough as nails that kid, got to protect him this year though. I can recall pretty clearly some plays against Syracuse, where the blocking failures were not on the LOS, but from the backfield. There were plenty of blocking failures all season long, it actually did get better, but we were limited along the line in other ways physically too. A hot mess.

It's got to click this year, though. No excuses.

I pointed out what I saw frequently on this board, and we discussed it several times. I said look how well the guards are playing because the pocket was there. It was always the tackles that were in trouble.

 

[businesslawyer]

The important part is that you managed to find a way to blame the coach for missing a <30 yard FG.

It's not P's fault that Christen had a one game meltdown. It is (in part, because it's mostly the players) P's fault that we couldn't keep the last Temple regulation drive out of the damn end zone.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Coach P's failure does not make Edsall a success.

Edsall was a very good recruiter, and a wildly overrated gameday coach.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

See, this is what I love. I just didn't see it that way, and this would get entertaining, if we were in the same room with a video projector and all kinds of cutups to play back and forth.

I think that for the most part, our tackles played pretty well in typical pass rush situations, and exhibited pretty good lateral foot speed. It was bad early on, but I think they improved later, and Bennett and Friend were actually pretty good 1-1 in pass protection isolations late in the season. I don't think it was common for our tackles to be beaten in a 1-1 iso to the outside shoulder. I think that in many cases, what may appear to have been an edge rusher, was actually a player that shot through one of the G-T gaps as a result of missed assignment. Whether it be a blocking call from the QB, or the C, and was a failure along the line, or in many cases was a failure from the backfield to pick up a block, resulted in there actually being no pocket for Whitmer to step into, should he not release the ball quick enough on his foot drop. It was a mess, our blocking, a hot mess. I give Whitmer a lot of credit, he got rocked over and over, and is tough as nails that kid, got to protect him this year though. I can recall pretty clearly some plays against Syracuse, where the blocking failures were not on the LOS, but from the backfield. There were plenty of blocking failures all season long, it actually did get better, but we were limited along the line in other ways physically too. A hot mess.

It's got to click this year, though. No excuses.

The OT outside gap responsabilites in this pass blocking system unfortunately allows the need for a running back to block against a DE or even a DT under certain blizing siutations. Remember all those times you mentioned seeing Lyle taking on people twice his size? The OL are ultamately responsable for their gaps. Maybe things will improve with everyone back plus depth on the OL. The QB will be making the blocking assignment calls this year too. We will find out first game.

 

[ruskin]

The QB will be making the blocking assignment calls this year too. We will find out first game.

Tricky thing about that is the next game is Maryland. Would assume Edsall will be hitting up Ambrose for info. Would hope all the new wrinkles won't be needed until Sept. 14. Don't want to see any freaking trick plays with a 30-0 lead.

By halftime of Game 2 we should have a pretty good idea how much freedom TJ has.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The OT outside gap responsabilites in this pass blocking system unfortunately allows the need for a running back to block against a DE or even a DT under certain blizing siutations. Remember all those times you mentioned seeing Lyle taking on people twice his size? The OL are ultamately responsable for their gaps. Maybe things will improve with everyone back plus depth on the OL. The QB will be making the blocking assignment calls this year too. We will find out first game.

Agreed. I don't know, and can't possibly know without a playbook, who's responsible for what gaps, but there was definitely a difficulty in how the backfield and line were accounting for the defensive fronts. It seemed that all a defense needed to do was run 2 guys through the same gap, and we had no chance at blocking them.

Lyle's a great football player I think. As mismatched as he was physically, in protections at times, he still did a pretty good job, it doesn't take more than getting in the way, to give the QB the split seconds he needs to release the ball. i think our weakest position blocking out of the backfield in protections was the FB, and motion TE's. Just my 2 cents. it seemed we did a lot with multiple TE formations, and the blocking was spotty. How they were involved I don't know, and don't care to dig around to try to find out. But the FB play last year, left a lot to be desired.

I'm excited to Clax, and Vinci, playing out of the backfield in that lead blocker role - we were spoiled there for years with high quality blockers out of the backfield. One of those guys, in front of DeLorenzo as a primary backfield? With McCombs hopefully getting some vision back and shiftiness (not sure what happened there last year) and Williams speed to bring in and out for change of pace, and I think we got something to work with physically.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I pointed out what I saw frequently on this board, and we discussed it several times. I said look how well the guards are playing because the pocket was there. It was always the tackles that were in trouble.

I know that's what you're saying, and I'm not really disagreeing, well sort of. I think it's possible that a lot of what you think you saw, was really a blown assignment in the interior line, or from the backfield. I think early on the tackles, had trouble, but especially when Bennett got more playing time, and simply seemed to be more confident in his own body ability to hold up - he got better. Friend, jury still out I suppose, he looked very bad at times, but when he was engaged, he can move his feet too.

It's also possible that I"m entirely full of .

 

[uconnbill]

The offensive line should be better this year as GDL now has nothing else to worry about. He is known as a good o-line coach so lets see if that holds true after the last two years of poor running game. This is the third year with zone blocking that GDL likes. If it doesn't work this year the onus is on GDL and HCPP.

 

[Srqhusky]

Agreed. I don't know, and can't possibly know without a playbook, who's responsible for what gaps, but there was definitely a difficulty in how the backfield and line were accounting for the defensive fronts. It seemed that all a defense needed to do was run 2 guys through the same gap, and we had no chance at blocking them.

Lyle's a great football player I think. As mismatched as he was physically, in protections at times, he still did a pretty good job, it doesn't take more than getting in the way, to give the QB the split seconds he needs to release the ball. i think our weakest position blocking out of the backfield in protections was the FB, and motion TE's. Just my 2 cents. it seemed we did a lot with multiple TE formations, and the blocking was spotty. How they were involved I don't know, and don't care to dig around to try to find out. But the FB play last year, left a lot to be desired.

I'm excited to Clax, and Vinci, playing out of the backfield in that lead blocker role - we were spoiled there for years with high quality blockers out of the backfield. One of those guys, in front of DeLorenzo as a primary backfield? With McCombs hopefully getting some vision back and shiftiness (not sure what happened there last year) and Williams speed to bring in and out for change of pace, and I think we got something to work with physically.

I noticed this as well. As spotty as our blocking was I don't think I ever saw a sack that was mccombs fault. Fullback yes and ol but not mccombs. I have no idea how he never had a concussion or injury the way he flew in defensive players legs.