Dawn Staley to critics: South Carolina 'not changing' its style

[southofnorth]

Staley to critics: Gamecocks 'not changing' style

An interesting read from Dawn and South Carolina’s point of view about the officiating in their game against Iowa and throughout the season:

"I do think with all the talk of how we play and the physical nature in which we play and the description of our team, I do think it plays a part," Staley said. "People got to do what they got to do to win. I'm not going to stoop that low. We've won a lot of basketball games doing it this way. We're not changing."

I don’t mind some physical play, but there does need to be a limit and it does need to be called fairly both ways. Holding, shoving, bumping, and smacking should always be fouls no matter who commits them.

Personally, I think South Carolina got the benefit of the whistle in many situations this season. I don’t think they play maliciously, but they, along with the SEC in general, play more physical than would be allowed in other leagues. I’m not saying that other leagues don’t have their overly physical teams, but it’s just what the SEC is known for. Even Dawn acknowledges that. That said, they were a dominant team this year and I thought teams played them very physically to try to keep them off the boards, so I think Dawn is justified in her frustration with how people view her team.

 

[MSSportsGuy]

The SEC in general is a physical league and most of the programs play that style. It isn't always pretty and officials have been known and guilty of swallowing their whistles on some occassions.

I don't tend to think the teams play dirty as much as push the boundaries. Not saying that because I'm some sort of SEC homer, I just have noticed it over my 30 years of watching the game.

 

[KMac]

Funny how offended DS was when Geno made comments about the rough game he had with SC and how the officials let so much go. DS was so offended by his comments...now she is saying the same thing. Double standard!

 

[BBallF]

Staley to critics: Gamecocks 'not changing' style

An interesting read from Dawn and South Carolina’s point of view about the officiating in their game against Iowa and throughout the season:

"I do think with all the talk of how we play and the physical nature in which we play and the description of our team, I do think it plays a part," Staley said. "People got to do what they got to do to win. I'm not going to stoop that low. We've won a lot of basketball games doing it this way. We're not changing."

I don’t mind some physical play, but there does need to be a limit and it does need to be called fairly both ways. Holding, shoving, bumping, and smacking should always be fouls no matter who commits them.

Personally, I think South Carolina got the benefit of the whistle in many situations this season. I don’t think they play maliciously, but they, along with the SEC in general, play more physical than would be allowed in other leagues. I’m not saying that other leagues don’t have their overly physical teams, but it’s just what the SEC is known for. Even Dawn acknowledges that. That said, they were a dominant team this year and I thought teams played them very physically to try to keep them off the boards, so I think Dawn is justified in her frustration with how people view her team.

I disagree about one part of this. She is not even remotely justified in any frustration about how her team is viewed or how she is viewed and other teams playing them physically. She got so extremely outcoached last night that it was blatant. She made zero adjustments and that's a significant reason among others why they lost. It was a trick defense by Iowa that she never did anything about. She is playing pound it inside basketball and try to outmuscle everyone. Once the officials actually follow the rules of basketball, her bigs will be going to the bench with regularity. She has no right complaining about anyone else being physical. Boston has been getting away with the the forearm pushing on rebounding and the ramming and shoving for years. It won't happen in the WNBA.

 

[npignatjr]

When things don't go her way Dawn will dig up one or two things to distract. Such as:



Sorta a C Viv moment. Remember?

What make was the ball used last night?

 

[hoopsfan22]

Wonder who Dawn was referring to about writers talking about her team? Does that happen?

 

[npignatjr]

"The pot calling the kettle black" SC and DS have been getting away with grabbing, holding, bumping, shoving for too long. May be SEC referees are allowing this kind of play because of their league allows it, I don't know. But DS have built a powerhouse and championship program based on this and of course excellent recruiting and fund raising. The loss to Iowa is simply due to the superb play by Caitlin Clark 41 pts and referees who did not allow SC rough play.

The officials did allow SC to get away with crap. But Iowa mostly played through it

 

[temery]

I'm not going to stoop that low.

I don't understand this comment.

 

[BBallF]

What make was the ball used last night?

OMG! I knew this was coming.

 

[schmendrick]

I think Dawn is tremendous, and an important voice in the game. I love how she makes no apologies for who her team is, and who she is as its leader. Say what you want about her style, or her "double standard," or her alleged propensity to distract, but give her this: she built a hell of a team, and her success is no fluke.

 

[Rowdy831]

I thought the game was hard fought by both teams and Iowa had Clark so they won. Here's the thing though, the officials don't have to call a bunch of fouls to change the outcome of the game. Boston sat the vast majority of the first half in foul trouble and it effected SC and how they approached the game. It is exactly what happened to UCONN against OSU, get the key person in foul trouble and it changes the way the game is played.

DS has zero reasons to change the way she does things. She is in the top couple teams every year and they get to the finals pretty consistently too. This is like people chirping (me included) about Geno this year, it's fun but it won't change how business is done.

 

[Bone Dog]

In the first series last night, Caitlin got mugged trying to cross at the top of the key without the ball. No whistle. It was insignificant, and no one scored on the first few possessions anyway. But I rolled my eyes and thought, "Here we go again." This is exactly what SC did to Lou in our game.

But then something strange happened. Boston got called for a charge on her patented back-down move. Stuelke saw it coming and new exactly how to draw it, and she moved her feet more quickly than Boston expected. Part of the problem is she started the move too far out on the floor. If she'd been closer in, I doubt the refs would even have noticed it. Afterwards, Boston had a look of perplexity, not the usual outraged innocence, and I think it's because she knows she is vulnerable to calls like that.

And sure enough a few holding fouls on the perimeter were whistled, and I thought this game isn't being officiated in the usual way or, if I were a bitter man, in the "SEC style." And then Boston got her second foul -- this one seemed a bit "iffy" to me, but not totally absurd. This was like a shot across the bow for SC. Boston sat and Cardoso and Amihere played even better than she had been. So, not a net loss to SC, but still a stunning setback for their style of play. As well as the two bigs continued to play, the guards seemed flustered, and Caitlin was rolling with 19 first half points before they knew what had hit them.

I don't think the refereeing was out of balance on any particular calls. But it didn't suit SEC style play as well as the usual "anything goes" reffing we've seen so often this year. In some respects our game against SC was a forecast of this game -- a slight adjustment to the reffing and the guard-focused team can win. But allow a rugby scrum and the guard focused team is at a huge disadvantage.

 

[Nolefan]

South Carolinas style of ball throw up bricks and air balls and have the bigs rebound and put back up bunnies .. on defense play physical .. Boston will have to change things up a tad at the next level of she will fluid out a ton she’s not gonna get special treatment at tue next level and just be able to bulldoze her opponents. .. unfortunately they aren’t going away anytime soon with the talent they have

 

[Pharos]

Brings me back to my question about officiating standards, supervision, and review. Is there anything in writing that makes calling a shove less subjective, anything that clarifies when bumping someone cutting throught the middle is excessive. Or are we stuck with, "Well, at least the refs called the game pretty evenly." ... which is usually an "eye-test" subjective opinion anyway. It's hard to watch when it looks like rugby under the hoop.

 

[AmeriConn]

Staley to critics: Gamecocks 'not changing' style

An interesting read from Dawn and South Carolina’s point of view about the officiating in their game against Iowa and throughout the season:

"I do think with all the talk of how we play and the physical nature in which we play and the description of our team, I do think it plays a part," Staley said. "People got to do what they got to do to win. I'm not going to stoop that low. We've won a lot of basketball games doing it this way. We're not changing."

I don’t mind some physical play, but there does need to be a limit and it does need to be called fairly both ways. Holding, shoving, bumping, and smacking should always be fouls no matter who commits them.

Personally, I think South Carolina got the benefit of the whistle in many situations this season. I don’t think they play maliciously, but they, along with the SEC in general, play more physical than would be allowed in other leagues. I’m not saying that other leagues don’t have their overly physical teams, but it’s just what the SEC is known for. Even Dawn acknowledges that. That said, they were a dominant team this year and I thought teams played them very physically to try to keep them off the boards, so I think Dawn is justified in her frustration with how people view her team.

Didn’t Dawn criticize Geno for complaining about the way the refs change direction in calling or not calling fouls?

 

[msf22b]

Why nobody can stop Iowa star Caitlin Clark, not even South Carolina's elite defense

'The Jordans are different. The Taurasis are different.' Clark showed she is too, defying another team's expert game plan to contain her.

theathletic.com

Good NYT analysis Of Iowa's and Clarke's game

 

[Heytherego]

I don’t understand her complaints, she knows her team plays physical and is one of the more physical teams out there. Nothing wrong with that, it’s worked for them. If you’re going to play that way get ready for foul calls. All refs call the game differently and that’s on the coach and players to adjust. Fouls were missed both ways but I thought it was pretty fair and even. “All the talk about how we play” Dawn that’s not talk, you literally are a physical team. Teams are going to try to adjust to that.

I want to add too, it sounds like something specific happened and Dawn heard something specific that had her upset when talking about the media the day before yesterday. I don’t blame her, go to bat for your team.

 

[Bone Dog]

These two remarks from Zia and Brea really tell the story. Zia first:

"In my opinion I don't think they call games like that in SEC play," Cooke said. "You couldn't do anything. They were doing the same stuff to us, but hey, it was hard, and it was definitely hard for our post players to be who they are tonight.

What this says to me is that the SEC is doing itself a disservice designing a style of play around specialized reffing. They’ve gotten their way with this for a few years now but a backlash from other conferences has been growing. Either they have to win this argument and continue to get their preferred reffing outside of conference play or they’ll have to change their style of play.

And from Brea:

"That's somebody you rely on a lot," guard Brea Beal said. "You want them to have a smooth-flowing game, so it was definitely frustrating."

Reading this I could only say, “Every team wants this for their stars, and S.C. has made a living preventing other teams and players from having precisely this.”

This is a player’s eye view, which sees very clearly what’s happening in detail and moment by moment but often lacks a broader perspective. They wanted the to have the game they’re used to, and Iowa didn’t let them have it, and the refs kept their thumbs off the scales… finally. This is what losing often looks like to players — that anything but their opponents and themselves were responsible for the loss. It’s only the unusual player who can see beyond this and understand the truth about a loss. Boston is such a player and her remarks show this. Lou and Dorka were also this way, understanding when they’d been outplayed and admitting it.

 

[CL82]

OMG! I knew this was coming.

On the plus side, at least she didn’t blame it on the ball.

 

[maple]

You can’t play a physical game and then get mad when refs call it. Sometimes you luck out and they don’t, but that’s the risk you take. Do I think SC plays malicious, of course not. I do think they play as tough as the refs will allow (and usually get away with a lot, but they’re hardly the only ones!).

But you have to be able to adjust and play to what the refs are or aren’t giving you. I think a lot of times that was perfectly illustrated by more than a few UConn games this year. You have to be able to be somewhat flexible with your style or it will likely come back to bite you eventually.

 

[JBK]

I thought the game was hard fought by both teams and Iowa had Clark so they won. Here's the thing though, the officials don't have to call a bunch of fouls to change the outcome of the game. Boston sat the vast majority of the first half in foul trouble and it effected SC and how they approached the game. It is exactly what happened to UCONN against OSU, get the key person in foul trouble and it changes the way the game is played.

DS has zero reasons to change the way she does things. She is in the top couple teams every year and they get to the finals pretty consistently too. This is like people chirping (me included) about Geno this year, it's fun but it won't change how business is done.

Agree. Just thought she may have had the athletic defensive talent to double team Caitlin and force someone else to beat them. I know that is easier said then done, but it was almost like “ we will wear her in down in the 3rd or 4th quarter like all others and they did not and never tried the double team.
Clark is not like all others and they did not adjust their style of defensive.

 

[Bone Dog]

One last thought on changing their style.

Dawn says she advised Boston to enter the draft with these words:

“There are defenses that played against her that won’t allow her to play her game,” she said, “and it’s hard to officiate that. She’s great. She’s ready.”

This says two things to me:

1) Boston's game is (perhaps has always been) overly dependent on a favorable style of reffing. She's been great for 4 years because she got officiating that suited her. As soon as she has to play in a game officiated differently, she's not nearly as great. Could she have adjusted her game and been great under different officiating? I think she absolutely could have.

2) This is all on Dawn -- this is how she coached her and encouraged her to play. Folks can defend Dawn by saying this was the way to win in the prevailing environment. And I'm moved by this. But the handwriting has been on the wall on freedom of movement fouls for a couple years now and she should have seen it coming at least as early as last November. When some of us here look for ways to articulate the limitations of Dawn's coaching, something like this is what I think of. As a game planner and skills trainer she seems narrow and rigid. Of course, she is a tremendous recruiter and program builder, perhaps the best in D1 over the past decade.

I hope -- and suspect -- a change is coming in the way the game is officiated, and that fan complaints about the rugby scrum in the paint (which has now migrated out to the perimeter) are going to be heard. Too many coaches have echoed this same concern.

 

[BRS24]

And from Brea:

"That's somebody you rely on a lot," guard Brea Beal said. "You want them to have a smooth-flowing game, so it was definitely frustrating."

Reading this I could only say, “Every team wants this for their stars, and S.C. has made a living preventing other teams and players from having precisely this.”

But then something strange happened. Boston got called for a charge on her patented back-down move. Stuelke saw it coming and new exactly how to draw it, and she moved her feet more quickly than Boston expected. Part of the problem is she started the move too far out on the floor. If she'd been closer in, I doubt the refs would even have noticed it. Afterwards, Boston had a look of perplexity, not the usual outraged innocence, and I think it's because she knows she is vulnerable to calls like that.

And sure enough a few holding fouls on the perimeter were whistled, and I thought this game isn't being officiated in the usual way or, if I were a bitter man, in the "SEC style." And then Boston got her second foul -- this one seemed a bit "iffy" to me, but not totally absurd. This was like a shot across the bow for SC.

There was a huge amount of discussion about the OSU game officiating, and I think we all felt this way re Edwards' foul trouble. She was also a key piece of the offense, and when she got a few fouls similar to Boston's, that went out the window. Players can normally adjust to ref styles, however if there's no consistency b/w offense/defense and per team, I can't imagine knowing how exactly players adjust.

 

[Bone Dog]

if there's no consistency b/w offense/defense and per team, I can't imagine knowing how exactly players adjust.

I agree, and I think there's been a crisis of inconsistency all over WCBB the last two years. The inconsistency switching between whistling touch fouls and and then in the second half allowing rugby style play must be bewildering to players. In our game against IU last year, the first half there were few whistles, and then in the second half IU got whistled a bunch of times in the first 5 minutes for what looked (in at least a few cases) like phantom fouls. We went on a 20-0 run and they never recovered, though the refs backed off on the foul calls in the 4th quarter.

I also mean all those games where you'd see the fouls bigs like Liv (and not just her) would get blocking shots when replays showed no contact, and announcers would try to make sense of by blaming it on hand positions: "Keep your hands straight up." This was just an attempt to excuse what was obviously indefensible. And in the very same games, you'd see blocks with no whistle and announcers would praise the players for keeping hands straight up (whether they did or not) and ignore the obvious body-to-body collisions. The rules on blocked shots are either too difficult to enforce, or too confusing, or simply incoherent. This is a different sort of inconsistency.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

I thought the game was hard fought by both teams and Iowa had Clark so they won. Here's the thing though, the officials don't have to call a bunch of fouls to change the outcome of the game. Boston sat the vast majority of the first half in foul trouble and it effected SC and how they approached the game. It is exactly what happened to UCONN against OSU, get the key person in foul trouble and it changes the way the game is played.

DS has zero reasons to change the way she does things. She is in the top couple teams every year and they get to the finals pretty consistently too. This is like people chirping (me included) about Geno this year, it's fun but it won't change how business is done.

But, but, but... SC out scored Iowa when Boston was on the bench...at least in 1st half according to stats shown by the announcers. ????