B12 to 16? WVU fans seem to think it's possible | Page 3 | The Boneyard

B12 to 16? WVU fans seem to think it's possible

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HuskyHawk

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We're going to be a Have Not in a system will absolutely cater to the Haves. The old Big East was on the outskirts of Haveville - the new one will be a plane ride away from it.

We're not gaining access to recruits in Texas or Florida...at least not the ones we need. Adding the fifth or sixth or seventh best programs in those states is no magic wand.

There is no upside here. The first victim will be the hoop program when Big Monday walks away.

Agreed. The worst possible thing for UConn is to land in some disaster of a conference where basketball is not on ESPN. Versus focuses on Hockey. NBC does not have the bandwidth to broadcast college basketball. The reason why ESPN's offer was as generous as it was is because BE basketball does have huge value to them, with tons of content. They just weren't going to overpay for a crappy football conference nobody wants to see.
 
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Oddly enough I think both bl and nelson have good points. The Big East was formed for basketball. The leadership never quite understood that football would be the driving force going forward and took only the most basic steps to hold and maintain a football conference. Even after the first ACC raid, the league pretty much did the minimum necessary to keep its football league together, and although the addititons were certainly good ones, Louisville was the Boise State of the early 2000s, it was still basketball centric and the addition of Marquette and Depaul which made very little sense from a locational perspective and none at all for meeting the real need of developing a serious football conference, demonstrated that the league never really got it. Football for the Big East was always approached like a C student approaches his classes...do the minimum required to pass.

On the other hand, Syracuse, BC and Miami were pretty slimy in the first round, and while most UCONN fans seem to have this affection for the Orange, one shouldn't forget that this isn't the first ime they plotted to get out of the Big East. the only reason they didn't go in 2003 was that the Governor and Legislature of Virginia essentially threatened to turn the University of Virginia into a community college if they didn't vote for VaTech instead. At the start of the process, John Casteen was on board with the Syracuse move and opposed to adding VaTech as "an equal." the current situation indicates that the Syracuse leadership remains a bunch of slime puppies. They probably ought to make Bernie Fine chairman of the Board of Trustees. He's a perfect representative of their level of integrity.
 

nelsonmuntz

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Without the tremendous reputation in basketball, the Big East no better than CUSA right now. Stop blaming the hoops schools.
 
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nelson,
I'm not "blaming" the hoop schools. I'm just commenting on the reality. And how great is that basketball rpeutation when you replace Syracuse with Houston and Pitt with SMU? The reality of the college sports landscape is, and really has always been, football first. It is now for sure. The only reason the Big East was able to retain its basketball position is that it had a BCS football league. And while I know everyone thinks Villanova and Georgetown are some kinds of basketball powers, since 2000, Georetown has won 2 regular season titles and 1 tournement title. Villanova has shared 1 regular season title (shared with UCONN in 2006). St Johns won the tourney in 2000. So in 12 years, the basketball schools had 2 Big East titles and 2 1/2 regular season "titles" (which the Big East didn't even recognize for a number of years and which are pretty meaningless in the larger scheme of things.) the reality is without its football playing schools the Big East would be the A-10. I know you don't want to admit that, but the record indicates that it is true. If you discount UCONN's pre-football success you need to go back to the mid-1990s to find a period where the basketball teams dominated the Big East. That is the reality. It just is. The Big East leadership never grasped the importance of football or was just too wedded to the concept that somehow the basketball schools were relevent on there own. Without the football schools, the Big East is no better than A-10. Georetown = Xavier. Villanova = Temple. St Johns=St Joes and the rest can make runs from time to time.
 
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Oddly enough I think both bl and nelson have good points. The Big East was formed for basketball. The leadership never quite understood that football would be the driving force going forward and took only the most basic steps to hold and maintain a football conference. Even after the first ACC raid, the league pretty much did the minimum necessary to keep its football league together, and although the addititons were certainly good ones, Louisville was the Boise State of the early 2000s, it was still basketball centric and the addition of Marquette and Depaul which made very little sense from a locational perspective and none at all for meeting the real need of developing a serious football conference, demonstrated that the league never really got it. Football for the Big East was always approached like a C student approaches his classes...do the minimum required to pass.

On the other hand, Syracuse, BC and Miami were pretty slimy in the first round, and while most UCONN fans seem to have this affection for the Orange, one shouldn't forget that this isn't the first ime they plotted to get out of the Big East. the only reason they didn't go in 2003 was that the Governor and Legislature of Virginia essentially threatened to turn the University of Virginia into a community college if they didn't vote for VaTech instead. At the start of the process, John Casteen was on board with the Syracuse move and opposed to adding VaTech as "an equal." the current situation indicates that the Syracuse leadership remains a bunch of slime puppies. They probably ought to make Bernie Fine chairman of the Board of Trustees. He's a perfect representative of their level of integrity.

You are basically asking why did the conference care about hoops and pigskin, and not just pigskin. The answer should be so apparently obvious that it doesn't require restating, but the answer is because we voluntarily joined a conference that had members that did not play big time football. That is the only answer.
 
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Without the tremendous reputation in basketball, the Big East no better than CUSA right now. Stop blaming the hoops schools.

I agree that the Big East is propped up by basketball but to not place any blame on the hoops schools for not being as accommodating to football expansion as they should have been and trying to keep football and basketball schools as equal voting blocs ignores the reality. Houston, UCF, and SMU or TCU could have been added years ago and the Big East could have been proactive instead of reactive. TCU would be in the Big East now if they had been added before B12 members started defecting.
 
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You are basically asking why did the conference care about hoops and pigskin, and not just pigskin. The answer should be so apparently obvious that it doesn't require restating, but the answer is because we voluntarily joined a conference that had members that did not play big time football. That is the only answer.

We joined as a school that itself had never sponsored big time football. We are historically more like the catholic hoops schools than the original football playing members of the Big East with the exception that we are a state flagship university.
 

The Funster

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A majority of the best hoops schools just happened to play football too. How many hoops only schools have had sustained success in the BE?
 

RS9999X

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It's safe to say no one seriously saw the ACC and SEC going to 14 schools until the BiG started their exploration in Dec 15, 2009. Even then it was assumed just 1 team before the April 21, 2010 anouncement of exploration of up to 16 teams.

For years football supporters were hooked on 12 as the magic number. The BiG was a threat to take 1 team at most and many thought it was ND or nothing.

It's hindsight to blame the BE in the 2003 - 2009 timeframe: there was no financial ammo in the BE's corner at that point. The problem today remains as simple: 12 may be the right number but how do you get 12 teams equally commited to Ball and Football? Look at the internal warfare at Rutgers and the Boise basketall team.

UConn has 3 options besides the status quo
1) Wait for a major to reopen their contract and constantly speak to that
2) Forming a BE UConn Cable Channel and shove it down subscribers throats at $10 a year.
3) Devolve and become a regional player. Separate BBall alignment from Football entirely and rebuild the BE as two separate conferences instead of a Football inside a Basketball conference.
 

Dann

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4)upgrade hockey, expand the rent, revamp xl, join the aau and dare the Big10 to not add us.
 
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You are basically asking why did the conference care about hoops and pigskin, and not just pigskin. The answer should be so apparently obvious that it doesn't require restating, but the answer is because we voluntarily joined a conference that had members that did not play big time football. That is the only answer.
Not at all. Of course it is understandable that a league that was founded as a basketball league would care about basketball. But when the world changed and football came to dominate, the Big East never was able to capitalize. It always did just enough to have a football league. It added just enough members to meet the minimum when it needed to expand after the original ACC raid. When it was pretty obvious that leagues were heading for 12 teams or more, after 2003, and the Big East was looking for new members, it added 3 football playing members and DePaul and Marquette instead of adding 5 members who played football along with basketball. The league could have added 2 teams that played basketball AND football, say Memphis which ahd very good basketball and UCFwhich was ok or Temple which has good basketball or Houston, still retained its reputation as a premiere basketball league and built a serious football conference. But much of the leadership never got it. Never seemed to understand that the Big East as a basketball conference was unique but the times had changed. They are doing in this round of expansions what they should have done in 2003, except that the basketball choices aren't as good and the football ones are spread all over creation. And it might simply be too late to save the conference. How long do you think it would take any Cincy, Louisville, USF, Rutgers or UCONN to say yes to an offer from th ACC, Big 12 or Big 10? The Acceptance letters are probably already written and just need to be date and signed....they are probably already signed actually and are just awaiting a date! The Big East was like Smith-Corona typewriters. They never quite got that the typewriter was being replaced by the pc and the large "adding machines" by pocket sized calculators. By the time they did, they did more dabbled in trying to produce word processing equipment than making a serious venture into the industry. Now they are a minor player, mostly in providing inks and paper rather than being a significant manufacturer.
 
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This is incredibly wrong. This conference had commong goals and progress through most of its history. It was formed to be a basketball conference and it succeeded. Than it formed a football conference that was meant to be good enough that it's basketball league wouldn't lose members and it succeeded again. It only became a collection of schools with disparate interests in the last decade when hoops money became insignificant compared to football money.

This confernece was not formed and developed irrationally. Unfortunately, market forces evolved in a manner that made rational and successful moves no longer work.

WArning - post of epic length coming......

Correct. THe league was formed as a basketball only league in a time 30+ years ago when intercollegiate athletics leagues were going through a major upheaval, with the splitting of then division 1 class of competition in conferences into 1-A and 1-AA....which revolved around......FOOTBALL. But the market forces have not changed, it's always been football, the big east simply ignored it, and made the assumption that basketball interests would supercede football, and that was irrational.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. It started with the 1-A / 1-AA split in the 70s, and the current landscape is the BCS conference schools separating financially from the non-BCS confedrence schools - all within 1-A now.
Prior to the creation of divions 1-A and 1-AA, UConn played division 1 football in the yankee conference. Prior to I think 1972, there were no divisions, just what was called major "university" compeition, or lower "college" competition. The early 1970s saw the creation of division 1, 2, and 3 levels of competition with specific criteria round scholarships, etc.....and football, always was the center piece in all of this decision making.

John Toner, at UCOnn actually played a pretty big role in the 1-A, 1-AA split, and favored UConn to play 1-AA in the Yankee conference as 1-AA because - of FOOTBALL MONEY. It wasn't until 1990, 3 or four years after Toner finished as AD,......that Lew Perkins and Hartley and CAsteen in the president's office..... that the money around football was seriously looked at to upgrade the university, and for that, the big east basketball conference and Jim Calhoun are to thank. Without the success of 1980's big east basketball, and Calhoun's run in the late 80's, football is still 1-AA in the Colonial Athletic now.

It's all about level of competition in athletics and money. It always has been, and money in intercollegiate athletics is about football. The big east in the 80s was able to capitalize on an era where football was not the priority in athletic alliances, as the 1-a/1-aa split (1978) was sorting itself, but it's glory years lasted 10 years, because it was over by 1989, when in 1990 Penn state joined the big 10, and the talks of a big east football conference seriously began.

THe reason that happened, was because athletic conferences by 1980 were in turmoil all over the east coast trying to sort out who was going to play who and at what level with the divisions in football.

SIngle sports conferences were not unheard of but were rare, and the big east was born as a single sport basketball conference, by people that had the vision to foresight to see that there was a huge void that could be filled and taken advantage with in the broadcasting world. People in the state of CT were absolutely instrumental with the creation of that basketball league, and there is no doubt that the single reason the conference was created, was for basketball, and basketball only.

I'm not sure what year it was, but it was in the 80's when the other olympics were incorporated into the league as the college athletics landscape settled after the 1-A, 1-AA split.

By 1991, the now 1-A football schools and conferences were getting bigger and richer, while the 1-AA schools were falling behind, and the first incarnation of the BCS was created. The independants in 1-A football, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Boston College, Miami, Pittsburgh, Penn State .......needed a home. The logical place was the big east. Notre DAme landed NBC broadcasting exclusively and managed to negotiate individually with the newly formed Bowl Alliance, while the other independants weren't able to do anything like that. Penn state was rejected in the mid 80s and went to the big 10 in 1990.

This was also the same period of time - 1980's - early 1990s, which saw the NCAA draft legislation that significantly limited the influence of single sport conferences to participation in post season events. A single sport basketball league in the 1980s no longer had the influence they wanted. It also led to the end of the 51 year history of the Yankee conference, which became a single sport football league after the 1-A, 1-AA split.

Miami, and Shalala were and still are EXTREMELY jealous of Notre Dame's position they managed to get themselves into, while the rest of them needed to join a conference.

We've been over all of this a thousand times.

You're right BL - the conference was not formed irrationally. But development of the conference? Market forces?
I've said right here many times, and will say again, Tranghese' complete disregard, and often easily interpreted to be disgust, with football was and still is completely irrational, and the failure of the big east conference leadership to adapt to THE market force, - not changing market forces. The market force in intercollegiate athletics is football, and always has been. I don't really know what Gavitt's position was on football, for whatever reason, but Tranghese despises it.

Marinatto, I don't know if he actually likes football or not, but he deserves the most credit for the survival of the big east conference in the current century, as long as it lasts, because he recognized how important it was, a long time ago, but the conference as a whole? It's taken until now, for the whole league to get it.

I'm really interested to see where Susie Herbst takes the athletic department.
 

RS9999X

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. But when the world changed and football came to dominate, the Big East never was able to capitalize. It always did just enough to have a football league. It added just enough members to meet the minimum when it needed to expand after the original ACC raid. When it was pretty obvious that leagues were heading for 12 teams or more, after 2003, and the Big East was looking for new members, it added 3 football playing members and DePaul and Marquette instead of adding 5 members who played football along with basketball. The league could have added 2 teams that played basketball AND football, say Memphis which ahd very good basketball and UCFwhich was ok or Temple which has good basketball or Houston, still retained its reputation as a premiere basketball league and built a serious football conference. .

I'd like to know what steps the BE could have taken differently after offering Nova and UConn to upgrade in the 90s that would be effective and stop the bleeding.

Adding Memphis and giving Temple a full membership? Telling ND to buzz off? What 3 other teams had to be added when UConn was approved to prevent the departure of Miami or Virginia Tech? What contract negotiated and for how much?

As near as I can tell WVU was angry they were carrying the load of BE footall and of the BE losing a BCS AQ bid and premium bowl bids. How could WVU be saved? By adding Houston and TCU? Not a chance

Adding Nova was lowered expectations. Did Rutgers, or Syracuse or Pitt have any obligation to upgrade their program performance? Not to mention WVU was under the gun after Rich Rod left and like Pitt and now SU expansion makes the Athletic Department look better or more active or in transition or whatever the spin might be to say they are getting better and forget the fiascoes of the last 6 years or longer.

Houston and UCF are with us now. Maybe Memphis. What would really change?
 
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The big east was posturing in 1997 to protect basketball by extending the upgrade invites to UConn and Villanova. They did the same thing with invites to the league in 2003 after the loss of Miami and VTech. They did NOT do the same thing with invites to the league in 2011. This round of expansion is entirely about football, and it's about f8cking time, the conference would have died otherwise.

What could they have done to stop the bleeding in this decade in the 1990s? All they (conference presidents, AD's, and conference administration)...all they needed to do was put the same kind of effort into supporting football that they did with basketball. That's it. The specifc ways that could have been done? Too many to list. Too many instances over the years where basketball interestes prevailed ultimately in all decision making around the conference.

Miami leaving was inevitable after winning the national championship and getting no public support from the conference leadership in the media. Virginia Tech, BC left in the mess of the wake Miami left. Lots of politcis and BS involved in Vtech and BC ending up in the ACC, and others were stopped from leaving, so that those two schools could leave.

But Miami was gone, nothing was stopping it, but it could have been prevented.

WVU? West Virginia, off the gridiron and hardwood, does not impress me, and their current actions are proof positive.

Tranghese is on record, saying the problem with Big EAst football, is quote: "They did not win enough." It's a load of horsesh*t. The big east was the premiere football conference in teh country from 1998-2002 and put teams in the national championship game in four out of the first five BCS national championship games.

Up until two years ago, I would have argued that presidents would have loyalty and integrity. I’ve lost all faith in that. The college presidents took over college athletics in 1990 and I would tell someone to stop and take stock in what has happened to college athletics since 1990 – we have utter chaos, a lack of leadership, greed and everything else." - Tranghese

Tranghese blames the university presidents (Shalala) for lack of integrity, always has, always will. He HATED the idea of the big east becoming a football league, but it was made so in 1990 by the university presidents, ADs of big east schools, Syracuse, Miami, Boston College, Pittsburgh......they successfully kept Penn State out earlier.

My personal opinion is the Tranghese has some kind of almost pathologic dislike for football.

''There is a reconstructuring of the National Collegiate Athletic Association currently going on,'' said the university president, Philip E. Austin, in an interview, ''and in order to continue playing in the Big East Conference in basketball, we may have to also play at the top level in football. And the UConn basketball program must be protected.'' Lew Perkins, the university's athletic director since 1990, has been hinting for years that basketball's status might be jeoparized if football were not upgraded. Mr. Perkins, who previously was the athletic director at two Division I-A schools, Maryland and Wichita State, has warned that schools in some major sports conferences, like the Big East, might form a ''super tier'' exclusive of the N.C.A.A. If that happened, Mr. Perkins has said, schools that are Division I-A in only one major sport, as is UConn, could be left out.
''All kinds of things can happen,'' he said. ''Whoever would have thought that the Southwest Conference, one of the strongest in the country, would have gone out of business and that Brigham Young University would win a national championship and then find itself without a conference?''

NY Times - 1997.
 
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The big east was posturing in 1997 to protect basketball by extending the upgrade invites to UConn and Villanova. They did the same thing with invites to the league in 2003 after the loss of Miami and VTech. They did NOT do the same thing with invites to the league in 2011. This round of expansion is entirely about football, and it's about f8cking time, the conference would have died otherwise.

What could they have done to stop the bleeding in this decade in the 1990s? All they (conference presidents, AD's, and conference administration)...all they needed to do was put the same kind of effort into supporting football that they did with basketball. That's it. The specifc ways that could have been done? Too many to list. Too many instances over the years where basketball interestes prevailed ultimately in all decision making around the conference.

Miami leaving was inevitable after winning the national championship and getting no public support from the conference leadership in the media. Virginia Tech, BC left in the mess of the wake Miami left. Lots of politcis and BS involved in Vtech and BC ending up in the ACC, and others were stopped from leaving, so that those two schools could leave.

But Miami was gone, nothing was stopping it, but it could have been prevented.

WVU? West Virginia, off the gridiron and hardwood, does not impress me, and their current actions are proof positive.

Tranghese is on record, saying the problem with Big EAst football, is quote: "They did not win enough." It's a load of horsesh*t. The big east was the premiere football conference in teh country from 1998-2002 and put teams in the national championship game in four out of the first five BCS national championship games.

Up until two years ago, I would have argued that presidents would have loyalty and integrity. I’ve lost all faith in that. The college presidents took over college athletics in 1990 and I would tell someone to stop and take stock in what has happened to college athletics since 1990 – we have utter chaos, a lack of leadership, greed and everything else." - Tranghese

Tranghese blames the university presidents (Shalala) for lack of integrity, always has, always will. He HATED the idea of the big east becoming a football league, but it was made so in 1990 by the university presidents, ADs of big east schools, Syracuse, Miami, Boston College, Pittsburgh......they successfully kept Penn State out earlier.

My personal opinion is the Tranghese has some kind of almost pathologic dislike for football.

''There is a reconstructuring of the National Collegiate Athletic Association currently going on,'' said the university president, Philip E. Austin, in an interview, ''and in order to continue playing in the Big East Conference in basketball, we may have to also play at the top level in football. And the UConn basketball program must be protected.'' Lew Perkins, the university's athletic director since 1990, has been hinting for years that basketball's status might be jeoparized if football were not upgraded. Mr. Perkins, who previously was the athletic director at two Division I-A schools, Maryland and Wichita State, has warned that schools in some major sports conferences, like the Big East, might form a ''super tier'' exclusive of the N.C.A.A. If that happened, Mr. Perkins has said, schools that are Division I-A in only one major sport, as is UConn, could be left out.
''All kinds of things can happen,'' he said. ''Whoever would have thought that the Southwest Conference, one of the strongest in the country, would have gone out of business and that Brigham Young University would win a national championship and then find itself without a conference?''

NY Times - 1997.

I have to give you credit -- you can kill a discussion like few others on this board.
 

RS9999X

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The big east was posturing in 1997 to protect basketball by extending the upgrade invites to UConn and Villanova. .......
What could they have done to stop the bleeding in this decade in the 1990s? All they (conference presidents, AD's, and conference administration)...all they needed to do was put the same kind of effort into supporting football that they did with basketball. That's it. The specifc ways that could have been done? Too many to list. Too many instances over the years where basketball interestes prevailed ultimately in all decision making around the conference.

has been hinting for years that basketball's status might be jeoparized if football were not upgraded. Mr. .... warned that schools in some major sports conferences, like the Big East, might form a ''super tier'' exclusive of the N.C.A.A. If that happened, Mr. Perkins has said, schools that are Division I-A in only one major sport, as is UConn, could be left out.

NY Times - 1997.

The super conference threat is still true. I expect it will be the 2020s when some teams are jettisoned from the Big 5 conferences. The next round of BCS and Bowl contracts will pave the way to end 'Conferences' as we know them.

I still haven't seen a thing, not a single thing, that would prevent the weakest of the BCS conferences from getting raided.

One of the things is unequal revenue distribution. Paying the bowl teams all the money and restoring the media credit provisions. Wait. Wasn't that tried? Unequal revenue sharing so the top teams would stay? And they still left for more money?

Let me guess: Your premise is something like this: if Memphis was added instead of Depaul the league would still be together. If Temple was kept and Marquette wasn't added then Miami and West Virginia would still be in the Big East.
 
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The super conference threat is still true. I expect it will be the 2020s when some teams are jettisoned from the Big 5 conferences. The next round of BCS and Bowl contracts will pave the way to end 'Conferences' as we know them.

I still haven't seen a thing, not a single thing, that would prevent the weakest of the BCS conferences from getting raided.

One of the things is unequal revenue distribution. Paying the bowl teams all the money and restoring the media credit provisions. Wait. Wasn't that tried? Unequal revenue sharing so the top teams would stay? And they still left for more money?

Let me guess: Your premise is something like this: if Memphis was added instead of Depaul the league would still be together. If Temple was kept and Marquette wasn't added then Miami and West Virginia would still be in the Big East.
Not necessarily. Rather think of it like this: If the Big East focussed on developing a competetive football league with 10-12 teams like all the other top leagues, where football was viewed as a major piece of the puzzle instead of the an afterthought...if building the football league had been a priority, it is likely that the Big East could have kept at least the most recent refugees from leaving. Marquette and DePaul were simply another example of the wacky world view of the Big East. And had Temple and Memphis been added along with Cincy, Louisville and South Florida the really funny thing is that the basketball conference would have been even more dominant than it currently is. the basic point though, is that it was possible to add schools that had comparable or superior basketball (and let's be honest, you could have added pretty mcuh anyone and had superior basketball to DePaul) and still had a football conference that was both good and comparable in size to all the other football conferences. I said at the time, and I've been saying since that a 10 team football league was the minimum required. But the Big East leadership never saw it that way. Protecting the power of the old guard PC, Seton Hall, St Johns, Georgetown and Villanova was always more important than having a modern conference that competed with the other majors.
 
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My premise? Money, and revenue streams are, and always have been driven by one force in intercollegiate athletics - football.

In the late 1970s, the splitting of division 1 football in to 1-A and 1-AA was the start of the great divide in revenue streams in intercollegiate athletics, as the "chosen" number of programs to really make money was paired down to the approximate 120 programs in the country right now.

In the 2010s, the "chosen" number of programs in the great divide in revenue streams has now been paired down to the number of teams currently in BCS conferences, down from 120 or so to approximately 65 or so now give or take a few because of the big east's noodling around football for 3 decades.

The big east conference, against the wishes of the commissioner's office at the time, was smart enough to get into the group of the 'chosen' few back in 1991, and the failure to recognize the importance of the sport in intercollegiate athletics finances for 3 decades, nearly led to the failure of the conference, and the exclusion of all the basketball only schools to be part of that chosen few universities in the BCS level of revenue streams in 2011 and moving forward. .

They finally get it over in Providence, and in the president's and AD's offices in those catholic b-ball only schools. I believe that, they were on the brink of getting cut out. I don't believe for a second that any of those catholics AD's or president's legitimately have thought about separating from the football schools. Tranghese, he sure wanted them too. Marinatto, he didn't. You'll have to take my word for that. The football schools, how many have progressively looked at leaving the league, or starting their own? It was looked at in 2003, starting their own league. UConn was looking elsewhere this year.

It's just kind of sad that we've got a league that looks like it will in 2013-2014, for the league to realize it.

I'm quite sure we'll be just fine going forward at this point, the leadership we've got isn't dumb, they've just been misguided in their priorities since the heyday of the 80s ended.
 

HuskyHawk

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I'd like to know what steps the BE could have taken differently after offering Nova and UConn to upgrade in the 90s that would be effective and stop the bleeding.

Adding Memphis and giving Temple a full membership? Telling ND to buzz off? What 3 other teams had to be added when UConn was approved to prevent the departure of Miami or Virginia Tech? What contract negotiated and for how much?

As near as I can tell WVU was angry they were carrying the load of BE footall and of the BE losing a BCS AQ bid and premium bowl bids. How could WVU be saved? By adding Houston and TCU? Not a chance

Adding Nova was lowered expectations. Did Rutgers, or Syracuse or Pitt have any obligation to upgrade their program performance? Not to mention WVU was under the gun after Rich Rod left and like Pitt and now SU expansion makes the Athletic Department look better or more active or in transition or whatever the spin might be to say they are getting better and forget the fiascoes of the last 6 years or longer.

Houston and UCF are with us now. Maybe Memphis. What would really change?

Nothing. There are no valuable northeastern football programs apart from Penn St. and maybe BC. That's not much of a conference. All this wailing about the Big East is silly. It wasn't a football conference because there were not, and are still not, enough football teams to field a conference. So instead we bastardized it with far flung programs like Miami and later Cincy and Louisville,USF, and now UCF, Houston, and SMU plus Boise. The Big East....in Idaho. Stop pretending.

The league cannot survive as configured. It makes no sense to anyone. Louisville will be gone soon enough. So we can create a Big East football conference with the football schools that still exist and haven't been seduced away, UConn, Rutgers, Cincy, Temple, UMass, Army and Navy. By my count, that's all there is available to field a conference. Or we can abandon the pretense of the Big East and create the best all sports conference we can with the leftovers of the BE, plus Conf-USA, abandoning geography and any logical and geographic associations along the way. Both options stink. VT, BC, Cuse and Pitt are not coming back. WVU isn't coming back.

Now if a 16 team playoff were instituted, and if each conference got an auto bid, then these conferences would need to re-think things. 10 teams would be plenty, 12 tops. You might see these leagues split up.
 

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Not necessarily. Rather think of it like this: If the Big East focussed on developing a competetive football league with 10-12 teams like all the other top leagues, where football was viewed as a major piece of the puzzle instead of the an afterthought...if building the football league had been a priority, it is likely that the Big East could have kept at least the most recent refugees from leaving. .

There's a couple things here:

1) Money. How could the BE raise the money to keep any teams given the offers they got? Everyone left for more money and stability with and without revenue sharing. Southern football is just that and 3 conferences own it. and Miami was gone ASAP.

2) Then there's the line "where football was viewed as a major piece of the puzzle instead of the an afterthought...if building the football league had been a priority" .

What is that all about? The football schools--Pitt, SU and RU-- made poor hiring decisions. Lousiville and Cincy and UConn had their coaches poached. Basketball really has nothing to do with internal mismanagement. Did they need to flatter Oliver Lucks' ego a little more? I doubt it. Virginia Tech and West Wirginia see themselves as part of the great Southern Football tradition. The BE was a port in the storm.
Note how well WVU plays the game: "Now we are restored to our rightful place as a Southern Football Power". etc.
 
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Not necessarily. Rather think of it like this: If the Big East focussed on developing a competetive football league with 10-12 teams like all the other top leagues, where football was viewed as a major piece of the puzzle instead of the an afterthought...if building the football league had been a priority, it is likely that the Big East could have kept at least the most recent refugees from leaving. Marquette and DePaul were simply another example of the wacky world view of the Big East. And had Temple and Memphis been added along with Cincy, Louisville and South Florida the really funny thing is that the basketball conference would have been even more dominant than it currently is. the basic point though, is that it was possible to add schools that had comparable or superior basketball (and let's be honest, you could have added pretty mcuh anyone and had superior basketball to DePaul) and still had a football conference that was both good and comparable in size to all the other football conferences. I said at the time, and I've been saying since that a 10 team football league was the minimum required. But the Big East leadership never saw it that way. Protecting the power of the old guard PC, Seton Hall, St Johns, Georgetown and Villanova was always more important than having a modern conference that competed with the other majors.

It goes back earlier than that. I had a discussion on here a while back with somebody else that remembers when the Pac-10 started paying to put up giant billboards in times square advertising I think it was Joey Harrington and Oregon for the Heisman in 2001-january 2002 - new year's in times square? How many people see that? THis was at the time, I mentioned before, when Miami was winning a national hcampionship and the big east had placed teams in the BCS national championship game for 4 consecutive years in both Miami and Virginia Tech.

Tranghese was interviewed about that in New York TImes, at the time, about how the Pac-10 could come in and take over times square, the home of his league, and his response....well if I was the president of the U, I'd have kissed the big east good bye too. St. Johns' b-ball in new york was more important.......complete disregard for football.

The league began to fall apart in January 2002. The league fell apart, with a reigning national champion in football, and having put a team in the BCS national championship game in 4 consecutive years. Makes me sick. They spent 10 years scrambling to protect basketball, and do the minimum necessary for football. Now, they've finally built a league structure that favors growth in football, rather than survival of basketball.

Here's a twist - another little gem about the negative influence of Boston College....

In 2003, brigning in Virginia Tech and Miami into the ACC should have made the ACC the most powerful football conference in the country. By far. The problem? As always, without a true playoff system of determining national champions, the public perception and media perception of football is integral. Like it or not, it's how it is.

BUT - if the ACC brings in only Miami? And then VTech after the governor of Virginia had a fit? The ACC has made significant moves that make sense.

What happened? Flipper and BC squeezed themselves into the deal.

It shifted the public and media perception around football on the east coast of the US. How can a school in Boston be part of the ACC? What had Boston College football done to deserve to be such an outlier in an athletic league? THis was not Miami going north to the big east in 1991.

Public perception of football on the east coast, and the ACC has declined since......... I blame BC!!! :)
 

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In 1998 - 2002 there were 6 BE Football Teams of note: Miami, BC, Pitt, SU, V Tech, and WVU.

There were 2 flea infested dogs: Rutgers and Temple.

Nothing's changed since Swofford first proposed adding the premier BE teams to the ACC in 1998. The only thing that gives them pause today is UConn, Rutgers and Notre Dame. As long as ND isn't interested and Rutgers refuses to improve then UConn is stuck.
 
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In one sense some of you guys are right. RThe Big East was first and foremeost a basketball league while the other major conferences, the B-10, B-12, SEC, PAC were all historic (well, the B-12 was more a combination of 2) all sports conferences. Adding football to the Big East was different than all those other conferences which were football conferences all along. But the early Big East was actually pretty successful onthe field with Miami, Syracuse, VaTech becoming a national player, Pitt hadn't been much since the 1970s but still had a bit of a name. BC was a middle of the road program. West Virginia was always looked at as an eastern football power, not a southern one, though. But given the history of th eBig east it was probably too much to expect that it would everbe able to really pull off th efootball thing. Half the membership didn't care, and half of those were not only didn't care but were positively antagonistic about the idea. If you've ever heard the St Johns president speak to the alumni you'll get what I mean. In 20-20 hindsight, it was probably a bad move to try and graft a football league onto the Big East. had the schools walked away and formed their own all sports league, maybe even inviting UCONN and Villanova to come, I suspect the long run result would have been better and more stable.

finally, it just isn't true that eastern football didn't get any respect. West Virginia, Syracuse, Pitt, to a lesser degree BC were all respected. It wasn't until the first ACC raid and the concerted effort by some in the media to denegrate the league that it was really considered substandard. From the begining of Big East play, through 2003, the last year before Miami and Va Tech left, there was never a year without a ranked Big East team, and most years there were at least two sometimes as many as 4 Big East teams ranked. And over that period, Miami, Syracuse, West Virginia, Virginia Tech all ended at least one season in the Top 10, and 3 of them, Cuse, Miami and VaTech ended the year in the top 5. contrary to the current peception which was largeley the result of revisionist history, the Big East was never Miami and the 7 dwarfs. those aren't the signs of a league whose members were disrepected.
 

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The Big East had a coherent footprint until the day came they added football.

Miami, Temple, West Virginia, and Virginia Tech were not BE teams. They were the best available to give Pitt, SU and BC some company along with the Red Dwarf. Pitt went to 1 bowl in the 90s. Temple and Rugers of course went to none. For all purposes the BE was 5 Football Teams 3 of which were a kludge.

The media contract was never the same as the other conferences The stadiums weren't the same. The press. Northern Bowl contracts or at-large back when there were 18 bowls? Only if ranked in the top 25.

I think you'd have to go back to 1990-91 and Penn State and revisit the whole mess to make things different but here's the rub--SU and BC were the only two teams worth their salt in 1991. Not much to bargain with.

I haven't read anything yet from SU, Pitt, BC, WVU, Miami or V Tech as to what had to happen to keep them in the BE forever. There was some friction as is usually the case when there isn't a silver bullet solution to anything.
 
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The Big East had a coherent footprint until the day came they added football.


I haven't read anything yet from SU, Pitt, BC, WVU, Miami or V Tech as to what had to happen to keep them in the BE forever. There was some friction as is usually the case when there isn't a silver bullet solution to anything.

BC said many times that they wanted to be in an all sports conference, not one with a basketball league and a seperate football league . Whether they can be believed or not, both the President and the AD said that they would have stayed if the football schools broke from the basketball schools. They also said, aagain many times, that they wanted to be in a league with Miami if given the choice.

West Virignia has been very clear in its filings and the AD has been too. they felt tha tBig East football was being ignored by the league administration. Pitt's President has also made comments along the same lines. Miami's move was motivated by money and a desire by Donna Shalala to generate enough football money to get the program back under control I think she discovered it was tougher than she thought...but she has managed to do some things like get the admissions department to weigh in on recruits and at least some players to actually attend a few classes. VTech was pretty happy in the Big East. It left when it did to try and protect the program when it looked like the Big East might collapse after Miami et al tried to leave for the ACC. And while it is true that they always wanted to get into the ACC, had the Miami, BC Syracuse (originally) not left they wouldn't have really pursued it.

the teams the big East added for football, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Temple, VaTech were all part of the traditional eastern college football scene. If you were putting together an eastern league in the 1990s, those were exactly who you would include along with BC, Syracuse, and probably Rutgers. Miami was the lone outlier, but not as much as it might seem at first blush.It had ongoing relationships with many of the eastern schools and had more alumni in the northeast than most typical Florida schools. They had played BC, Pitt and Syracuse regularly since the 1950s for example. Not annually, but they had multi year series with both BC and Pitt in every decade from the 1950 on and Syracuse less often but still every decade since 1960. So given that they were a power, and that the Big East wanted a florida pesence for recruiting, Miami was a pretty logical choice. for what its worth, West Virginai, and to a lesser extent Pitt also had basketball traditions that were at least comparable with some of the Big East basketball programs like Seton Hall, Providence, UCONN at least up to that point...so while they weren't Big East members, they were part of a logical footprint for an Eastern football league.
 
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