August 15th 1945 --what it meant to me

[BroadwayVa]

Th surrender of Japan meant that my Brother would live and 2 dozen relatives along with him in the Pacific Theater of War would live. It didn't matter how it happened it only mattered that they'd come home alive.
Cousin Henry in New Guinea wouldn't be eaten by starving Japanese soldiers
The war ended but all those relatives and 17 year old Little Wilbur whose body and brains were destroyed on Iwo would live the next 70 years with nightmares of the horrors.
But most of all my brother would finally come home after 3 years in the Pacific Theater.
I've been to Japan since--everyone I met was a nice person. The American Japanese soldiers were the most courageous in the ETO. But the WWII Jap military was the worst of any enemy we have ever faced. 3 percent of the Americans who were POW's of the Japs lived. 80 percent of the Americans POW of the Nazi lived.. Shell Shock (we now know it as PTSD) victims were treated as cowards in both WW1 and 2==we have since learned, I hope.
The Pacific war soldier to soldier fighting started on 8 Dec 41 a full year before Americans fought in africa. It ended 4 months after Germany surrendered.

 

[connboy77]

Th surrender of Japan meant that my Brother would live and 2 dozen relatives along with him in the Pacific Theater of War would live. It didn't matter how it happened it only mattered that they'd come home alive.
Cousin Henry in New Guinea wouldn't be eaten by starving Japanese soldiers
The war ended but all those relatives and 17 year old Little Wilbur whose body and brains were destroyed on Iwo would live the next 70 years with nightmares of the horrors.
But most of all my brother would finally come home after 3 years in the Pacific Theater.
I've been to Japan since--everyone I met was a nice person. The American Japanese soldiers were the most courageous in the ETO. But the WWII Jap military was the worst of any enemy we have ever faced. 3 percent of the Americans who were POW's of the Japs lived. 80 percent of the Americans POW of the Nazi lived.. Shell Shock (we now know it as PTSD) victims were treated as cowards in both WW1 and 2==we have since learned, I hope.
The Pacific war soldier to soldier fighting started on 8 Dec 41 a full year before Americans fought in africa. It ended 4 months after Germany surrendered.

Wasn't it August 14th 1945, the original VJ day that the war with Japan ended?

 

[wire chief]

I get it. Uncle Jim had way too much foxhole duty, so I witnessed some of his shell shock behaviors thereafter.

 

[vtcwbuff]

"3 percent of the Americans who were POW's of the Japs lived."

I'm not dismissing the barbarity and mistreatment, but a 25% fatality rate (not the 97% that you cited) in Japanese POW camps is generally accepted number.

 

[vtcwbuff]

" The American Japanese soldiers were the most courageous in the ETO."

The 442nd RCT is recognized as the most decorated WWII unit in the US armed forces for it's size, but I don't understand how one can say that the Japanese soldiers were the most courageous. Were they braver than the Rangers at Point Du Hoc? Or any one of hundreds of other units that fought in Europe. But that quibble aside, there is no question that they served their country honorably.

"They were superb! That word correctly describes it: superb!
They took terrific casualties. They showed rare courage and tremendous fighting spirit. Not too much can be said of the performance of those battalions in Europe and everybody wanted them...."General George C. Marshall"...

I had the honor to command the men of the 442nd Combat Team. You fought magnificently in the field of battle and wrote brilliant chapters in the military history of our country."
"They demonstrated conclusively the loyalty and valor of our American citizens of Japanese ancestry in combat."General Mark W. Clark

Unfortunately the bomb fell a couple of months too late for a Marine uncle now at rest in the Punchbowl

 

[BroadwayVa]

Wasn't it August 14th 1945, the original VJ day that the war with Japan ended?

For me the real VJ day happened in February 1946 the day Dad, my brother in law and me went to Fort Devens (Mass) to pick him up in a snow storm. Him in his long army over coat, lost almost 50 pounds, waiting at the guard shack. Best day of my life bar none. Way too many friends, relatives, in laws never made it home. But on 15 August we knew he wouldn't get killed in action.

 

[BroadwayVa]

" The American Japanese soldiers were the most courageous in the ETO."

The 442nd RCT is recognized as the most decorated WWII unit in the US armed forces for it's size, but I don't understand how one can say that the Japanese soldiers were the most courageous. Were they braver than the Rangers at Point Du Hoc? Or any one of hundreds of other units that fought in Europe. But that quibble aside, there is no question that they served their country honorably.

"They were superb! That word correctly describes it: superb!
They took terrific casualties. They showed rare courage and tremendous fighting spirit. Not too much can be said of the performance of those battalions in Europe and everybody wanted them...."General George C. Marshall"...

I had the honor to command the men of the 442nd Combat Team. You fought magnificently in the field of battle and wrote brilliant chapters in the military history of our country."
"They demonstrated conclusively the loyalty and valor of our American citizens of Japanese ancestry in combat."General Mark W. Clark

Unfortunately the bomb fell a couple of months too late for a Marine uncle now at rest in the Punchbowl

You are so right---courage in every war came in all sizes, all nationalities, all colors---I should have said THEY WERE AMONG THE MOST COURAGEOUS IN THE ETO, AND THEY WERE. American Japanese whose families were being treated as the enemy proved without a doubt they were/are Americans. \

Because my brother was in the Pacific, as well as uncles and cousins, I followed closely the Marines from New Georgia forward. Without equivocation I can say your uncle was a hero, and I never use that term lightly. Okinawa.

The "bomb" came too late for way too many Americans in Asia, military and civilian.

My brother had close friends of many nationalities in WWII.
Mark Clark, like McArthur were not among my favorite Generals of WWII--but his assessment of the 442 RCT . No they were probably not more courageous than the Rangers at Point Du Hoc or in Italy or the Marines on Iwo or 10000 other actions no matter how small. When you are scared "wittless" and still do your duty--that's courage.

 

[BroadwayVa]

"3 percent of the Americans who were POW's of the Japs lived."

I'm not dismissing the barbarity and mistreatment, but a 25% fatality rate (not the 97% that you cited) in Japanese POW camps is generally accepted number.

Let us put it this way, using your number, 75 percent died in Jap POW camps--Does it matter, except to those dead or their loved ones if it was a low 75 percent or as high as 97 percent---. Doesn't that number appall you???

If it were you ---it would be 100 percent. I got that number from archives, maybe there were wrong. Regardless those in the care of the Japanese fared less well than POW in the hands of the ruthless NAZI. If you don't mind please give me your source so I may check mine. Thank you.
It really Disses me off when statistics say ONLY X number died it's not important just a number unless it is you, your brother, you father --then it's a person, not a number. Like the Black protesters say---ALL LIVES MATTER!!!

 

[UcMiami]

What we did to the Japanese Americans in this country is a great shame on our country's heritage and a direct result of racism since we had no problem with our German American citizens living and working as normal.
Certainly for the US the Pacific theater was terrible. And it is interesting to note that soldiers who went to war in Europe, Africa, or the Pacific did not rotate back to the states as our current military does - while they might be 'pulled out of the line' periodically, when they deployed they did so for the duration - in many cases for 4 years. But they also were fighting for a country that was completely committed to the war and it was a war that affected almost everyone on the home front as well as overseas. I think that had a positive effect psychologically for everyone.

An interesting note: my father studied at Oxford from 1936-1938 - he was a very social person, but by 1946 of all the European students he knew during those two years, only two were still alive. I visited his college with him in the 1970s and he went down the list of war dead, identifying his roommates, best friends, etc. That was the moment when I began to understand the difference between the US experience of the two world wars and the European experience. While the US lost many men and many families were effected, all of the European nations lost two whole generations of men. And the privations lasted long after the war for Europe - England had food rationing for another 9 years after VE day.

 

[ed4ourgirls]

Let us put it this way, using your number, 75 percent died in Jap POW camps . . .

Actually, using his number, 25 percent died in Japanese camps. A bit different than 97 percent.

Like vtcw I don't mean to make light of the actions of the Japanese during the war - and after
the war for that matter - unlike the Germans, the Japanese have never really owned up to
their horrific actions in China and elsewhere.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Actually, using his number, 25 percent died in Japanese camps. A bit different than 97 percent.

Like vtcw I don't mean to make light of the actions of the Japanese during the war - and after
the war for that matter - unlike the Germans, the Japanese have never really owned up to
their horrific actions in China and elsewhere.

I asked for your source of 25 percent. I'd still like to check it out. I've read number on the dead from Jap POW camps (Japs are the bad buys Japanese are the ok ones) from 3 percent survival to 50 percent survival and 17 percent dying in German Camps.

History is an inexact science (actually no science at all) it depends who is writing it and what they intend to convey, usually not History. The Germans actually have not fully stood up to their exploits. Those captured and sent back are not damned as they should be some are treated as near hero's. The Japanese were the worst. As we get further away from it--those who have no real memory of it tend to down play the horrific things done--I've mentioned some, hardly the extremes that happened. American tend to speak more loudly of the "bad" things done by Americans--actually we are pikers when it comes to murder, mayhem, abuse. We'd rather love our enemies.

Flyboys is a good book about Chici Jima. (Conduct Under Fire) is one about 3 Navy doctors in Pow camps in the Philipines and Japan and on the death ships-. 3 Came Back about Civilian women in POW camps. these are excellent. My cousins, brother, uncles had no desire to relive their days in POW camps, combat, or recovery.
Returning soldiers, sailors and Marines didn't have to speak of their horrors you could see it in their faces or what it did to the bodies and brains. Screaming nightmares I've heard or heard about from family members--it hit the families of those who came back.

 

[BroadwayVa]

What we did to the Japanese Americans in this country is a great shame on our country's heritage and a direct result of racism since we had no problem with our German American citizens living and working as normal.
Certainly for the US the Pacific theater was terrible. And it is interesting to note that soldiers who went to war in Europe, Africa, or the Pacific did not rotate back to the states as our current military does - while they might be 'pulled out of the line' periodically, when they deployed they did so for the duration - in many cases for 4 years. But they also were fighting for a country that was completely committed to the war and it was a war that affected almost everyone on the home front as well as overseas. I think that had a positive effect psychologically for everyone.

An interesting note: my father studied at Oxford from 1936-1938 - he was a very social person, but by 1946 of all the European students he knew during those two years, only two were still alive. I visited his college with him in the 1970s and he went down the list of war dead, identifying his roommates, best friends, etc. That was the moment when I began to understand the difference between the US experience of the two world wars and the European experience. While the US lost many men and many families were effected, all of the European nations lost two whole generations of men. And the privations lasted long after the war for Europe - England had food rationing for another 9 years after VE day.

I guess you had to be there ---Putting American Japanese in camps was wrong--but at the time it was expedient and necessary to keep the largely white population of the USA from fearing and hurting the American Japanese. The vast majority of Americans THEN supported this act. For the American Japanese it was terrible to think YOUR country didn't trust you. But the USA trusted NO ONE..
A friend of my Brother a Puerto Rican American had a brother on a ship sunk in Pearl Harbor. The FBI investigate him and his family because (I believe ) he didn't look like everyone else. The investigation hurt the family financially and personally. My mother wrote to FDR complaining about the horrible treatment of these Americans. --It wasn't only the Japanese who felt the impact of scrutiny of the Federal (FDR) government.

 

[UcMiami]

BroadwayVA - no it wasn't only the Japanese Americans, but they were the only group rounded up and put into internment camps - and many lost everything they had as a result. There were many more Nazi sympathizers who were white (with or without german heritage) than there were Imperial Japanese sympathizers amongst the Japanese Americans. But then folks like Lindberg and Joe Kennedy were 'main stream'.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I asked for your source of 25 percent. I'd still like to check it out. I've read number on the dead from Jap POW camps (Japs are the bad buys Japanese are the ok ones) from 3 percent survival to 50 percent survival and 17 percent dying in German Camps.

History is an inexact science (actually no science at all) it depends who is writing it and what they intend to convey, usually not History. The Germans actually have not fully stood up to their exploits. Those captured and sent back are not damned as they should be some are treated as near hero's. The Japanese were the worst. As we get further away from it--those who have no real memory of it tend to down play the horrific things done--I've mentioned some, hardly the extremes that happened. American tend to speak more loudly of the "bad" things done by Americans--actually we are pikers when it comes to murder, mayhem, abuse. We'd rather love our enemies.

Flyboys is a good book about Chici Jima. (Conduct Under Fire) is one about 3 Navy doctors in Pow camps in the Philipines and Japan and on the death ships-. 3 Came Back about Civilian women in POW camps. these are excellent. My cousins, brother, uncles had no desire to relive their days in POW camps, combat, or recovery.
Returning soldiers, sailors and Marines didn't have to speak of their horrors you could see it in their faces or what it did to the bodies and brains. Screaming nightmares I've heard or heard about from family members--it hit the families of those who came back.

My original source was Gavin Daws' "Prisoners of the Japanese" which I had on my bookshelf. After my initial response to your OP I did a bit more research. I came to the conclusion that the number of POW deaths is a little slippery. The only constant is that the numbers are all over the place. However, none of the sources I looked at cited POW deaths anywhere near 97%. Most estimates ranged between 25% to a high of 50% depending on who was considered in the statistic. Some included non military American prisoners, some did not. Here is a link to an academic paper that might be the most thorough study I found. One thing that can't be disputed is that the Japanese executed military prisoners at a rate more than 10X that of the Germans.

 

[Gus Mahler]

Broadway: Could you be thinking about the survivors from Corregidor? From the battle, through the Bataan Death March, and then four years in Japan, not many survived. Even then I don't think it was 97%, but horrific nonetheless.