A Little OT: An important Admission from Ariel Massengale

[j66kicker]

If you do not consider that a good defense (23rd out of 347 teams, which is top 7%), then I guess the being a UConn fan really has destroyed your perspective.

I think you are correct. At least it's a "different" perspective. And we kinda like it that way. We do not measure our team against the 347 others.

 

[DaddyChoc]

It seems our opinion of a "good defensive team" differs. UNC is certainly not known for their defense.

UNC is not in the top 50 in ppg, 36th in FG%, 29 in 3 pt FG%. Not really outstanding. But if you think that's good, I just have a bit higher standard. (probably a UCONN thing)


She may become a good defensive player, but as of now, nothing special. At least nothing that she's "known for". But we are not gonna know for 2-3 years.

who is known for their "good defense" besides Kelly, MoJett (Stokes blocks)... Angel was good/great but everyone focused on her pouting (seems like Diamond gets the Angel treatment here).

Diamond's defense is no worse than anyone else IMO. UConn looks great as a "team"!

 

[RadyLady]

Kids are asked a question on how their team will be this year and they try to answer positively. What are they supposed to say? UConn players are given instructions on how to address the press and I imagine players on all other top teams are as well. It's the players' version of coachspeak, not chirping.

Wow - I did not know the use of that word in that context. I am not sure I should thank you for the link.

When I use chirped or chirping in a sentence, rest assured I will not mean it in that way. {shudder}

 

[HuskyNan]

Wow - I did not know the use of that word in that context. I am not sure I should thank you for the link.

When I use chirped or chirping in a sentence, rest assured I will not mean it in that way. {shudder}

I tried to find a more PG rated site but the Urban Dictionary is more concise. Should have put a warning on it - sorry.

 

[Icebear]

who is known for their "good defense" besides Kelly, MoJett (Stokes blocks)... Angel was good/great but everyone focused on her pouting (seems like Diamond gets the Angel treatment here).

Diamond's defense is no worse than anyone else IMO. UConn looks great as a "team"!

Angel had returned to those issues early in her pro career.

 

[Icebear]

I tried to find a more PG rated site but the Urban Dictionary is more concise. Should have put a warning on it - sorry.

Chirping is the new version trash talking. Language is fluid.

 

[meyers7]

Your idea of the stats that define defensive excellence are a bit dated.

IDK, they still keep score the same way.

That's why UNC had the 23rd best defense in the country last season,
When you combine all the stats, UNC opponents scored an average of 0.83 points/trip down the floor, which was 23rd best in the nation last season. If you do not consider that a good defense (23rd out of 347 teams, which is top 7%), then I guess the being a UConn fan really has destroyed your perspective.

That's what I said. We have a different perspective on "good".

And the point was that UNC is not known for their defense. i.e. people saying, "oh UNC? Yea, they're a really good defensive team." That's not what comes to mind. You think people should think that, I wouldn't necessarily agree, but either way, they don't. And further back point, DD is the same.

 

[meyers7]

who is known for their "good defense" besides Kelly, MoJett (Stokes blocks)... Angel was good/great but everyone focused on her pouting (seems like Diamond gets the Angel treatment here).

Diamond's defense is no worse than anyone else IMO. UConn looks great as a "team"!

That was pretty much my point, DD is nothing special defensively.

 

[DaddyChoc]

That was pretty much my point, DD is nothing special defensively.

very few are... very

 

[meyers7]

I love the downplay of Diamonds game. She played half the year with a broken hand and just continued to get better and better. 30 and 38 point performances at Duke and at NC State and was exceptional in her first post season.

But this season without Diamond or Mercedes still has us crazy Tennessee fans excited. I can't wait to see Jannah get in a game.

Well personally I hope you are let down. (but that's just my UCONN fanness talking)

I think DD will be a very good player. "Really, really good" in Geno Speak. IF Russell comes back and with DD, that might be enough to get TN over the hump to be a FF team. But TN has to get over that hump first before they can think about NC. And in the 2015-16 season, you lose Burdick, Massengale and Harrison. While UCONN will have Stewart and Jefferson as Seniors. And ND is probably going to be the #2 team (Loyd, Mabrey, Reimer, Allen, Turner, damn) and/or S. Carolina by then. And the landscape could still change depending on where Ogunbowale and Brown end up.

So while your optimism is expected, UCONN has other "worries" besides TN for the next couple years.

 

[RadyLady]

What I see as I read the thread is that a star player(s) is/are singled out as the one or ones to make a difference between a final four team or a team that goes home, i.e. as successful year vs an average or poor year (for elite teams) .

How many times has opponents faced UConn with a stellar player in the line up only to find that that player is shut down and the opponents is going home with a loss in their column? With the exception of few, the answer is many, many times. Or the opposite is true, they let the "star" player shoot to their hearts content, and shut down everyone else. Either way, UConn wins. Everyone is expected to play defense, and on the other side of the court, they read the opponents defense and set and run a play to score. We have our stars for sure, yet we always have scoring options...

Something I will never forget - back in 2008, UConn was playing their second to last conference game against DePaul. Excluding exhibition play where they had lost to the national team, they had had only one loss on the season thus far, a 73-71 game against Rutgers. In the seconds before the DePaul game was over, UConn was down by 1 point. Geno called a time out, and on a team that had Rene Montgomery, Megan Gardler, Tina Charles and a freshman Maya Moore, Geno instead looked to his senior point guard Ketia Swanier, and drew up a play for her which was executed to perfection as she ran the floor and scored the winning bucket as time ran out. It was brilliant, no one expected her to be the one to take the last shot.

Options

BTW, Rutgers was the last game on the schedule that year, and UConn avenged their loss with a 20 point thumping, 66 - 46.

Speaking of defense, Ketia finished her career as the only player in UConn history to rank among the top 10 career leaders in games played, assists and steals. She also won the Big East 6th man of the year award. I think that she may have played a little defense from time to time.

Until Tennessee gets away from depending heavily on their "stars" and looks to play team ball, they may do fairly well, but they will have a hard time achieving their goals.

 

[Beemer]

Simmons never met a shot she didn't like.

Precisely!

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

Ha. Well the the new sheriff is 0-2 against Holly. As a former AA point guard herself, I'm pretty sure Holly isn't scared either.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens at the CLAW on February 23rd.

 

[triaddukefan]

Ha. Well the the new sheriff is 0-2 against Holly. As a former AA point guard herself, I'm pretty sure Holly isn't scared either.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens at the CLAW on February 23rd.

A NC resident reading a back and forth between fans of teams from neighboring (and inferior) States on a UCONN message board.

 

[RadyLady]

ridi, Pagliaccio

 

[meyers7]

A NC resident reading a back and forth between fans of teams from neighboring (and inferior) States on a UCONN message board.

Not exactly sure that's a good thing. From a UCONN perspective that is. I mean it is called The Boneyard - Uconn Women's Basketball for a reason.

I guess we need some UCONN games to get this board back into a UCONN frame of mind.

 

[Beemer]

I like seeing comments from other teams' fans. I think it helps keep things in perspective.

 

[meyers7]

I like seeing comments from other teams' fans. I think it helps keep things in perspective.

I do too, but let's keep it in perspective.

 

[RadyLady]

I like seeing comments from other teams' fans. I think it helps keep things in perspective.

We've had had comments from others teams fans on the bone yard for many years, usually commenting about UConn and or UConn against their respective team, triad and Cam being excellent examples of this.

 

[Fightin Choke]

IDK, they still keep score the same way.

True, but the whole point of statistical analysis is to break down why a team is good. One gains a lot more insight into a team's defense by utilizing points per possession instead of just defensive FG% and points yielded per game. If a defense doesn't let you shoot (i.e., forcing a lot of turnovers) then that should factor into a defensive rating. If the team seldom gives up an offensive rebound, then that should count as well. For example, if a team allows an offensive rebound on a possession and then fouls the shooter (who drains both FT's), then that defense has allowed 0% shooting for the possession, but gave up points that FG% would not account for. But points per possession would value that possession the same as a team shooting the ball and it going in on the first try (i.e. 2 points scored in that possession). I already argued the value of considering a team's pace, but your favored metric (points allowed per game), ignores that. Did UConn really have a bad defensive game against Oregon last season? They did if you consider defensive PPG, but they had a great game if you consider defensive PPP (points per possession).

That's what I said. We have a different perspective on "good".

If the top 7% is not considered good, then where is elite? Where is excellent? Where is great (or very good)? Where does average start?

And the point was that UNC is not known for their defense. i.e. people saying, "oh UNC? Yea, they're a really good defensive team." That's not what comes to mind. You think people should think that, I wouldn't necessarily agree, but either way, they don't. And further back point, DD is the same.

No, when I think of UNC, I think of a team with a high tempo (but messy) offense, but last season their offense really wasn't that bad (even after adjusting for pace). UNC's defense was actually good last year (23rd in defensive PPP) despite the fact that so many freshman played huge minutes. That's incredible. The previous season (2012-13) they were even better (12th). They were 15th in 2011-12 and 9th in 2010-11. That doesn't seem like a bad defensive team at all.

BTW, UConn was ranked first in defensive PPP in each of the years for which I have stats available. Notre Dame was 11th (2013-14), 31st (2012-13), 3rd (2011-12) and 2nd (2010-11).

Offensively:

2013-14: UConn 1st, ND 2nd, Baylor 3rd
2012-13: UConn 1st, Baylor 2nd, ND 3rd
2011-12: Baylor 1st, UConn 2nd, ND 6th
2010-11: Baylor 1st, UConn 4th, ND 7th

What's amazing to me about these stats is that Baylor, UConn and Notre Dame had really tough schedules over most of these years but still generally put up incredible numbers. One of the weaknesses of PPP is that it has no way of accounting for schedule strength, but the cream rose to the top regardless, which says a lot about these teams.

 

[meyers7]

If the top 7% is not considered good, then where is elite?

Easy, UCONN.

Where does average start?

Also easy, UNC.

 

[Alydar]

If the top 7% is not considered good, then where is elite? Where is excellent? Where is great (or very good)? Where does average start?

While I agree with your points about the value of PPP I disagree that being in the top 7% is a standard for elite status.

Tenn and Georgia were in a tie at #23 with UNC. If this was men's list then "elite" might be applicable to #23 but the drop off in wcbb is very steep. Elite, to me, means, at a minimum, being 1-8. No. 23 is certainly better than most but that "most" is pretty pathetic when compared to teams like Notre Dame for example.

An elite team should be closer to the No 1 team than the No 100 team.

1. UConn 0.67 PPP

23. UNC 0.83PPP

The difference is 0.16. An equal difference in the opposite direction is 0.99 PPP which is No. 303 Texas Tech's defensive PPP rating.

Even if we ignore the elite defense of UConn, the next major conference team is Arkansas at 0.78, or a difference of 0.05 with UNC. An equal difference in the opposite direction (0.88) gives us No. 79 USC (et al).

If a team's defense is to considered elite, it should perform at a level closer to the top team than the bottom teams.

Link to PPP stats: http://www.wbbstate.com/stats/teamD/DRating/_/0

And for the record I think UNC will be a FF contender this year.

 

[Fightin Choke]

Also easy, UNC.

So if you believe that 23rd out of 347 is average, then 6.5% is above average and 93.5% is below average. Thank God you were never taught statistics by me!

 

[Fightin Choke]

While I agree with your points about the value of PPP I disagree that being in the top 7% is a standard for elite status.

Oh, no, you misunderstood my post. When I initially referred to UNC's defense as "good" (LINK), Meyers disagreed, arguing they were not good (see post #65, just 3 below my linked post). I never claimed UNC had an elite defense, or even a very good defense. All I said was they were good.

Because Meyers didn't consider the top 7% good, I was asking him where the cutoffs were for different levels of performance (e.g., elite is the top 1%, 2-3% is very good 4-6% good, 7% is average, etc.)

 

[HoopsFan21]

Elite = UConn
Not elite = anyone not named UConn

Any questions?