Yet another Marinatto screw up

[Rumrunner]

"The Big East's settlement with West Virginia, allowing the Mountaineers to leave, comes after commissioner John Marinatto steadfastly said for the past five months that the league would hold any departing schools to the 27-month exit penalty. Under league bylaws, West Virginia was obligated to remain in the Big East through July 1, 2014.

But Marinatto may have undermined the league's efforts to hold West Virginia in the league because of the precedent he set by allowing TCU to leave the Big East without ever playing a game. The Horned Frogs will start play int he Big 12 this season. "

http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2012/02/rutgers_scrambling_to_fill_two.html


Since Marinatto couldn't competently run the conference while it was somwhat stabilized, I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise that he would still be incompetent during its disintegration.

And for the Marinatto apologists out there, Marinatto is part and parcel of the Providence gang that steadfastfully refused to recognize the importance of football to the conference. The statements that Tran-gees-ee made in the fall are the views of Marinatto.

At the risk of repeating myself, Providence today, Providence tomorrow, Providence
Forever.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

I agree that he was not proactive enough regarding expansion and stabilizing the football product but I just don't get this whole TCU set a precedent assertion. TCU was never a member. They signed a contract to become a member on July 1, 2012, a date that still has not yet come. Yes, they had to pay the exit fee for breaking their contract to join the BE in the future but they were never Big East members. I just don't see what it has to do with the WVU situation.

 

[06029]

I agree that he was not proactive enough regarding expansion and stabilizing the football product but I just don't get this whole TCU set a precedent assertion. TCU was never a member. They signed a contract to become a member on July 1, 2012, a date that still has not yet come. Yes, they had to pay the exit fee for breaking their contract to join the BE in the future but they were never Big East members. I just don't see what it has to do with the WVU situation.

TCU had a contract with the BE (same as WVU), they were bound by a 27 month notice requirement and an exit fee and the BE let them off the hook for the exit fee only. While the 2 situations are not completely equal, the question of the precedent of allowing a team to leave outside the terms of the contract is there. So now, if you are the BE and you are faced with an increased probability of losing in court, you are forced to settle. By being nice guys to TCU (who wanted in the BE really bad until the Big12 came calling), it opened the door way open for the Big 12 to grab anyone they want for money.

The big question now, does Cuse or Pitt want out so bad this year that they pay $20 million to leave right now? The BE screwed this up and it started way before TCU.

 

[Dann]

tcu joined, then left. they paid up but didn't have to stay the time. now its fair game for everyone else. wvu was the 1st to expose this. they are gone for $20mil and no time and no clause that they need a replacement. now by the end of this weekend you will see the b12 add byu and lville. lville will pay the $20mil and be gone on monday. now the acc will feel like they got joked on for a bit, they will loan both cuse and pitt some money just like the b12 loaned wvu some money. cuse and pitt will be gone this summer. lville didn't need a loan becuase they have been raking money in lately like a healthy athletic department, something we just stay average with and something rutgers does horribly wrong.

next year we play 3(um/buff/wm) mac games, 2(md/ncst) acc games and 3(ruty/cincy/usf) big east games as of right now. we have 4 games as of right now to start looking for. boise/ucf would be 2 of the better options. memphis is pretty obvious at this point that they got the invite for this reason so they will be on the schedule. still need 1 more. we have a fcs slot open unlike most teams... what a freaking schedule that is....

 

[MattMang23]

Marinatto didn't agree to allowing WVU to leave without either:

a) having assurances someone like Boise St. will be able to replace them next year, or

b) knowing the Big East won't lose the BCS-bid just because it drops under 8 teams (assuming no one replaces the Mounties)

... or did he?

 

[Rumrunner]

The article also states that Pitt and Cuse go in 2013, so at a minimum Marinatto's bold pronouncements ring hollow. In honor of President's day: "it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak out and remove all doubt."

 

[uc1974]

You guys are a tough audience. I'd hate to be a defendant with you on the jury. I can feel the rope now.

 

[Dann]

#coleworld

 

[Fishy]

There is no way that Syracuse and Pitt stay the full 27.

Not happening.

But we're in great shape, boys! I read it here.

 

[HartbeatHusky]

TCU had a contract with the BE (same as WVU), they were bound by a 27 month notice requirement and an exit fee and the BE let them off the hook for the exit fee only. While the 2 situations are not completely equal, the question of the precedent of allowing a team to leave outside the terms of the contract is there. So now, if you are the BE and you are faced with an increased probability of losing in court, you are forced to settle. By being nice guys to TCU (who wanted in the BE really bad until the Big12 came calling), it opened the door way open for the Big 12 to grab anyone they want for money.

The big question now, does Cuse or Pitt want out so bad this year that they pay $20 million to leave right now? The BE screwed this up and it started way before TCU.

Saying that TCU was ever a BE member is like saying that Pitt and Cuse are currently ACC members or even that WVU is currently a B12 member. The fact is that TCU never joined the Big East and just for that fact their situation is completely different. They had a contract to join the Big East in the future which they backed out of and had to pay a penalty. They were never a member of the league to be bound by it's bylaws.

 

[06029]

Saying that TCU was ever a BE member is like saying that Pitt and Cuse are currently ACC members or even that WVU is currently a B12 member. The fact is that TCU never joined the Big East and just for that fact their situation is completely different. They had a contract to join the Big East in the future which they backed out of and had to pay a penalty. They were never a member of the league to be bound by it's bylaws.

They were formally invited and accepted entrance into the BE. They were introduced at a press conference. They had a start date. Plans were made based on them being a member. That they never played a game in the BE is not the issue, they were expected to be a member of the BE just as WVU was expected to be a member of the BE.. They were let out of the contract immediately based on payment of a fee. That is the precedent WVU was using to look for the same type of exit requirement. I am not saying the BE would not have prevailed in court should it have gone that far, but if you are the BE, you injected a significant amount of uncertainty into your position by your own prior actions. The BE established a precedent for exiting a contract with TCU by allowing the buyout. That the final amount will be $20 million, should be seen as a win for the BE because it will give them enough cash to buy the early entry of at least 1 team next year. And if Pitt and Cuse want out of the ACC today, they would need to buy their way out too, just like TCU and WVU. Remember, all of this only about money.

You need to worry about Pitt and Cuse leaving in July 2012 under the exact same terms of this settlement. That is the true doomsday scenario. The BE can buy 1 new team for 2012. I find it hard to believe that they can buy 3 teams for 2012. I feel that it is 50/50 that they tell the BE they want out under the exact same terms as WVU. At the very least, both will be gone in 2013 for less than $20 million.

 

[huskypantz]

There is no way that Syracuse and Pitt stay the full 27.

Not happening.

But we're in great shape, boys! I read it here.

I get the feeling you've been doing a lot of pacing and wall-punching in the past few months.

 

[Adios]

I get the feeling you've been doing a lot of pacing and wall-punching in the past few months.

He's 6'6" and 250 lbs. Of course he was punching something. Maybe his keyboards or PC screens. lol

 

[HartbeatHusky]

They were formally invited and accepted entrance into the BE. They were introduced at a press conference. They had a start date. Plans were made based on them being a member. That they never played a game in the BE is not the issue, they were expected to be a member of the BE just as WVU was expected to be a member of the BE.. They were let out of the contract immediately based on payment of a fee. That is the precedent WVU was using to look for the same type of exit requirement. I am not saying the BE would not have prevailed in court should it have gone that far, but if you are the BE, you injected a significant amount of uncertainty into your position by your own prior actions. The BE established a precedent for exiting a contract with TCU by allowing the buyout. That the final amount will be $20 million, should be seen as a win for the BE because it will give them enough cash to buy the early entry of at least 1 team next year. And if Pitt and Cuse want out of the ACC today, they would need to buy their way out too, just like TCU and WVU. Remember, all of this only about money.

You need to worry about Pitt and Cuse leaving in July 2012 under the exact same terms of this settlement. That is the true doomsday scenario. The BE can buy 1 new team for 2012. I find it hard to believe that they can buy 3 teams for 2012. I feel that it is 50/50 that they tell the BE they want out under the exact same terms as WVU. At the very least, both will be gone in 2013 for less than $20 million.

If Cuse and Pitt leave now the precedent is at least set at $20M to leave for 2012. With $60M the BE could buy all of the new schools, especially the new all-sports members since they don't have to deal with other conferences for other sports. I would honestly prefer to get it over with at this point and get as many in for next season as possible. Really, why wait? Houston and SMU will probably be a lot better than Cuse and Pitt next year anyway. Let SyraPitt go stink it up in the ACC and drag them down.

 

[kibblesnbits]

Think rationally not emotionally for a minute. If the BE tries to hold TCU and they skip off to the Big 12 anyway we'd have had another suit. Courts look at these things dispassionately and say, "What are your damages?" Since they never played in the Big East it would be impossible to show that TCU's failure to enter the league was worth more than the $5M they paid anyway. Bottom line: If you want to criticize Marinatto do it for something he actually had control over. TCU's entrance into the Big 12 is not one of them.

 

[freescooter]

I the facts of the situation are different enough that TCU is not any sort of precedent. But letting West Vriginia walk for a relative pittance in the world of college football payments these days is an absolute example of ineptitude of the type that Marrinatto had consistently demonstrated. Why bother with all the public statements about the bylaws and holding teams to them. Just run up the white flag and be done tith it. Saves everybody a whole lot of time and effort.

I fervently hope that this new UCONN AD uses every ounce of strength and contact to get us out of this athletic and academic mess of a conference.

 

[businesslawyer]

You are only entitled to an injunction if you can show, in addition to a likelihood of success on the merits, irreperable harm. Since WVU is absolutely free to leave after two seasons anyway, assuming that Boise State replaces it next year as a member (and this is a different discussion if that is not the case), exactly what is the irreperable harm in WVU leaving, and being replaced by a roughly comparable football program, two years before it would otherwise happen.

A $20M settlement is not a capitulation. It is a solid result. Regardless of whether fans would feel better if WVU were to be held to its word.

If Boise does not come in next year, we have a horse of a different color. If I had to guess, the reason you're not seeing a definitive announcement of a settlement is that the Big East's agreement is conditioned upon Boise playing in the Big East next year and that isn't done yet.

Oh, and by the way -- it is the Big East members that have the say on settling or continuing this case. If you really think they are letting Providence make the final decision, I don't know what to say. Someone will have to explain to me how we have an incompetent buffoon when it comes to the outside world who has superhuman control of his membership with the conference.

 

[freescooter]

Well, biz, I think you are correct in the legal analysis, and you're correct that the final deal will likely have to be blessed by the Big East members, though that isn't necessarily the case. I have seen situations where the CEO or a small grup has the authority to make those settlements. So without the details of the Big east and how it works, internal operational rules and so forth who knows. But I assume you are correct. But if we assume that the entire Big East needs to approve it, less Syacuse, Pitt and obvioulsy WestVirginia all of whome I believe lose their voting rights, it is a basketball centric majority and frankly why would they care? heck, at least 3 of them have been rumored to be interested in leaving to form a basketball only league anyway. If they get a chance ot get a few extra bucks for something that has a minimal impact on them, why not? Finally, on the keeping of incompetent buffoons, I have to say it happens all the time. That is sad but also true. One only needs to look at the East Haven PD, which has apparently been run by a racist, and possible criminal for the past 14 years to find a case of something worse than a buffooon. And sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, like UCONN staying in this mess of a league. What other choice do you have?

 

[businesslawyer]

Well, biz, I think you are correct in the legal analysis, and you're correct that the final deal will likely have to be blessed by the Big East members, though that isn't necessarily the case. I have seen situations where the CEO or a small grup has the authority to make those settlements. So without the details of the Big east and how it works, internal operational rules and so forth who knows. But I assume you are correct. But if we assume that the entire Big East needs to approve it, less Syacuse, Pitt and obvioulsy WestVirginia all of whome I believe lose their voting rights, it is a basketball centric majority and frankly why would they care? heck, at least 3 of them have been rumored to be interested in leaving to form a basketball only league anyway. If they get a chance ot get a few extra bucks for something that has a minimal impact on them, why not? Finally, on the keeping of incompetent buffoons, I have to say it happens all the time. That is sad but also true. One only needs to look at the East Haven PD, which has apparently been run by a racist, and possible criminal for the past 14 years to find a case of something worse than a buffooon. And sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, like UCONN staying in this mess of a league. What other choice do you have?

People (not just you) keep raising this bogeyman of "the basketball schools won't allow it." Other than voluntarily walking away from the conference, can you name one important decision that the football schools as a block wanted that the basketball schools blocked? Because I have not heard anyone, including WVU in its papers, claim this is the case.

What we do keep hearing is that the basketball schools stand aside and let the football schools run the football decisions. And yet, on bulletin boards, ....

 

[freescooter]

I don't know a specific decision that I can positively point to, but it has been intimated that the price for the admission of TCU, for example, was the admisssion of Villanova to the football side. It has also been intimated that Villanova's admission as a football member was one of the few, and perhaps the only, member that the basketball side was willing to consider in the quest to reach 10 members. I don't have total access to the Big East records, so I can't prove this. Indeed there may never have been an official action to this effect. But it absolutely was "whispered" among people from various groups. A Villanova upgrade clearly was not the preference of the football members, especially when the Wildcats brought forward a proposal that consisted of paperclips, chewing gum and other people's money.

 

[businesslawyer]

I don't know a specific decision that I can positively point to, but it has been intimated that the price for the admission of TCU, for example, was the admisssion of Villanova to the football side. It has also been intimated that Villanova's admission as a football member was one of the few, and perhaps the only, member that the basketball side was willing to consider in the quest to reach 10 members. I don't have total access to the Big East records, so I can't prove this. Indeed there may never have been an official action to this effect. But it absolutely was "whispered" among people from various groups. A Villanova upgrade clearly was not the preference of the football members, especially when the Wildcats brought forward a proposal that consisted of paperclips, chewing gum and other people's money.

Is Villanova a football member? The football schools said no, and it's not. If Providence thought it had an idea that would work and it was wrong, so what? The bottom line is that we do not know about anything that Providence did that the football schools opposed, and other than people who don't know anything grumbling on bulletin boards no school has ever said that Providence did something over the objection of the football schools. If that happened, it would have been stated in WVU's brief where they threw everything they could at the case. That they didn't have anything ought to have put that myth to bed once and for all.

But urban legends die hard in the internet age.

 

[freescooter]

BL,

I think fundamentally, we disagree on whether Marrinatto is/was a good choice for commissioner. I think he has been a disaster. Now it might be that the conference model itself is fundamentally flawed. The BC president insists that it is. And the fact that only 1 of the original Big East football members currently remains in the league, and they would leave in a heartbeat if offered a spot in another league, and the team with the 2nd longest tenure, and a Big East founder, UCONN, would do the same, as would Louisville and Cincinatti, indicates that something is wrong. And it isn't only money. By all accounts the Big East had a chance to land a contract that was pretty close to that of the ACC, and maybe could have swamped the ACC in the open market. It would have been a tough go for a highly competent commissioner to keep this mess together from spinning out of control. For Marrinatto, a small time guy whose main ties were to the basketball schools, it has been impossible.

 

[businesslawyer]

BL,

I think fundamentally, we disagree on whether Marrinatto is/was a good choice for commissioner. I think he has been a disaster. Now it might be that the conference model itself is fundamentally flawed. The BC president insists that it is. And the fact that only 1 of the original Big East football members currently remains in the league, and they would leave in a heartbeat if offered a spot in another league, and the team with the 2nd longest tenure, and a Big East founder, UCONN, would do the same, as would Louisville and Cincinatti, indicates that something is wrong. And it isn't only money. By all accounts the Big East had a chance to land a contract that was pretty close to that of the ACC, and maybe could have swamped the ACC in the open market. It would have been a tough go for a highly competent commissioner to keep this mess together from spinning out of control. For Marrinatto, a small time guy whose main ties were to the basketball schools, it has been impossible.

1. LOL. Providence negotiated the TV contract. It was turned down because some members schools, including Pitt, yelled bloody murder.

2. The fundamental flaw with the Big East is that, in a football-centric world, the Big East member institutions never had as large fanbases, or as much casual TV interest, or as much football prestige, as the members of any other football conference. Thus, in an era where expansion was going to occur, it would always be the members of the Big East who would be easy pickins' because other conferences could offer them more money.

It's that simple. I know that doesn't allow for personification of blame, but it's still that simple. And I say all that not really knowing how good a commissioner Marinatto is (because only his bosses, who give him his rights and power and goals, know that).

 

[freescooter]

Is Villanova a football member? The football schools said no, and it's not. If Providence thought it had an idea that would work and it was wrong, so what? The bottom line is that we do not know about anything that Providence did that the football schools opposed, and other than people who don't know anything grumbling on bulletin boards no school has ever said that Providence did something over the objection of the football schools. If that happened, it would have been stated in WVU's brief where they threw everything they could at the case. That they didn't have anything ought to have put that myth to bed once and for all.

But urban legends die hard in the internet age.

here's the point which you seem to miss in all this. Since 2003, Virginai Tech, BC, Miami, West Virginia, Pitt, and Syracuse have all left or decided to leave the Big East Conference. Those are "the facts on the ground." While it is speculative, I owuld argue that it is only slighlty so, Rutgers, UCONN, Louisville, Cincinatti and South Florida would all follow suit if they could figure out how to do that. In that time not a single basketball school has left. Not one. Not a single basketball school has threatened to leave for greener pastures. Oh, St Johns, PC and the Hall have fumed aobut maybe taking their ball and forming their own league when the football schools are in turmoil, but they've never done it, nor have they been taken seriously. That football schools leave practically every chance they get, For situations that aren't significantly better, and aren't significantly more lucrative (The Big East guarenteed Miami more than the ACC, for example. The Big East ESPN proposal was relatively close to the ACC's deal, particularly when you consider the ACC admission fee over the first few years) suggests that something is fundamentally wrong with the Big East at a structural level. If there is not a problem, why is that football schools and only football schools look to leave? Yes they'll make a little more money. But not that much more when you look at all in costs. Yes, they'll get a little more prestige, but again, is the ACC with its 1-13 or so BCS record that much more presitgious? If you win it, maybe. Remember, BC and VaTech have both played in multiple ACC Cahmpionship games. the Eagles sole share of th eBig East title came in their last season in a 4 way tie in a 7 team league. There is a fundamental flaw somewhere. Mike Tranghese bleieved it was because the Big East teams didn't win enough games, although the league failed to have a ranked team only once since 2001, and it has had multiple teams ranked every years since except 2. In BCS games, the Big East is over .500. In all bowl games, it is way over .500.

 

[businesslawyer]

here's the point which you seem to miss in all this. Since 2003, Virginai Tech, BC, Miami, West Virginia, Pitt, and Syracuse have all left or decided to leave the Big East Conference. Those are "the facts on the ground." While it is speculative, I owuld argue that it is only slighlty so, Rutgers, UCONN, Louisville, Cincinatti and South Florida would all follow suit if they could figure out how to do that. In that time not a single basketball school has left. Not one. Not a single basketball school has threatened to leave for greener pastures. Oh, St Johns, PC and the Hall have fumed aobut maybe taking their ball and forming their own league when the football schools are in turmoil, but they've never done it, nor have they been taken seriously. That football schools leave practically every chance they get, For situations that aren't significantly better, and aren't significantly more lucrative (The Big East guarenteed Miami more than the ACC, for example. The Big East ESPN proposal was relatively close to the ACC's deal, particularly when you consider the ACC admission fee over the first few years) suggests that something is fundamentally wrong with the Big East at a structural level. If there is not a problem, why is that football schools and only football schools look to leave? Yes they'll make a little more money. But not that much more when you look at all in costs. Yes, they'll get a little more prestige, but again, is the ACC with its 1-13 or so BCS record that much more presitgious? If you win it, maybe. Remember, BC and VaTech have both played in multiple ACC Cahmpionship games. the Eagles sole share of th eBig East title came in their last season in a 4 way tie in a 7 team league. There is a fundamental flaw somewhere. Mike Tranghese bleieved it was because the Big East teams didn't win enough games, although the league failed to have a ranked team only once since 2001, and it has had multiple teams ranked every years since except 2. In BCS games, the Big East is over .500. In all bowl games, it is way over .500.

The questions you raise answer themselves. No basketball only has ever looked at leaving because they play in the best basketball conference in the country. Every football school has left, or would leave for greener pastures, because they play in what is the sixth best football conference in the country. Not in terms of play on the field, but in terms of fan, money and prestige.

I could not have made my point better myself.