Wondering if the BY can help me understand some defensive X's and O's

[MD#12Fan]

I know we don't love talking X's and O's much on the BY, heck we've got a Mt. Rushmore HC, but I need some feedback on a defensive point.
Why do we allow the offense to reverse the ball.

Coaches can dictate offenses to do what they want them to do. Pack it in, make the O shoot jumpers. Switch on all screens. Go under screens, go over screens. Front the post. (my favorite that you rarely see anymore) Trap on ball screens. (we could do this, especially with Mir and Aubrey) Lots of strategies.

If the ball's on top, the defense can force the ball one side or the other. (again, game planning can dictate what you're gunna do, some teams are right-handed or left-handed). Then, when the ball goes to one side, the defense tries to keep it there. As if there is an imaginary dashed line that runs up the middle of the floor. Then, dictating that the game is played on one side, the defense is then able to lay for steals, set traps (corners and free-throw line extended), and even front the post(s). Defenders on players on the other side of the floor slide over and help. Some coaches call that imaginary dashed line "the wall".
Seems like we are passive on top. So, from there the offense can do what they want.
Thanks BY

 

[blkkirk]

I thought Aubrey was the only player being disruptive at the top. Mir will be as time goes on.

 

[Kurebeach5]

I know we don't love talking X's and O's much on the BY, heck we've got a Mt. Rushmore HC, but I need some feedback on a defensive point.
Why do we allow the offense to reverse the ball.

Coaches can dictate offenses to do what they want them to do. Pack it in, make the O shoot jumpers. Switch on all screens. Go under screens, go over screens. Front the post. (my favorite that you rarely see anymore) Trap on ball screens. (we could do this, especially with Mir and Aubrey) Lots of strategies.

If the ball's on top, the defense can force the ball one side or the other. (again, game planning can dictate what you're gunna do, some teams are right-handed or left-handed). Then, when the ball goes to one side, the defense tries to keep it there. As if there is an imaginary dashed line that runs up the middle of the floor. Then, dictating that the game is played on one side, the defense is then able to lay for steals, set traps (corners and free-throw line extended), and even front the post(s). Defenders on players on the other side of the floor slide over and help. Some coaches call that imaginary dashed line "the wall".
Seems like we are passive on top. So, from there the offense can do what they want.
Thanks BY

Easier said than done. If you cheat too far out on the opposing PG you likely would open up the middle which is a much harder and dangerous territory to defend than 25-30 feet from the basket out top. It also opens the skip pass (which of course was a no-no in “our” day) and kids shoot the 3 way too well to leave them open.

 

[ju6381]

Easier said than done. If you cheat too far out on the opposing PG you likely would open up the middle which is a much harder and dangerous territory to defend than 25-30 feet from the basket out top. It also opens the skip pass (which of course was a no-no in “our” day) and kids shoot the 3 way to well to leave them open.

There is a good example somewhere in the first half where Evina was denying the chance to swing it, the negative was she was so focused on taking that away, that the ball handler was able to pass the ball to the inside easily.

 

[MD#12Fan]

Easier said than done. If you cheat too far out on the opposing PG you likely would open up the middle which is a much harder and dangerous territory to defend than 25-30 feet from the basket out top. It also opens the skip pass (which of course was a no-no in “our” day) and kids shoot the 3 way to well to leave them open.

X’s and O’s Baby! I hear you.
I agree about the skip pass, but if you are in that passing lane you can pick it off or at least make the receiver catch it away from shooting range. “See both” “Ball-You- Man”, whatever term you use.
I don’t think it’s cheating or gambling. You’re just pushing the ball one side of the other and then you’re preventing the easy reversal. You’re right, that might be a bit of an overplay. I’d argue that the middle is the best place for them to be, that’s where the help is.
Back in the day, teams with centers would force everything into the middle. Georgetown and Patrick Ewing. Thanks for the post!

 

[MD#12Fan]

I’m with you

I thought Aubrey was the only player being disruptive at the top. Mir will be as time goes on.

I’m with you. We may have some “hosses” to do some stuff this year. (Hope hosses is an ok term for young ladies. I coached girl’s varsity one year and referred to my center as thick. If there was a hole to climb into, I would have. I was actually complimenting her. Oops)

 

[MD#12Fan]

There is a good example somewhere in the first half where Evina was denying the chance to swing it, the negative was she was so focused on taking that away, that the ball handler was able to pass the ball to the inside easily.
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IMO it’s like a chain reaction. Pressure out front, then huge emphasis on help and getting in passing lanes, deny the next pass, and IMO last but not least, fronting the post. Classic Bobby Knight/Coach K.

 

[JordyG]

Easier said than done. If you cheat too far out on the opposing PG you likely would open up the middle which is a much harder and dangerous territory to defend than 25-30 feet from the basket out top. It also opens the skip pass (which of course was a no-no in “our” day) and kids shoot the 3 way to well to leave them open.

X’s and O’s Baby! I hear you.
I agree about the skip pass, but if you are in that passing lane you can pick it off or at least make the receiver catch it away from shooting range. “See both” “Ball-You- Man”, whatever term you use.
I don’t think it’s cheating or gambling. You’re just pushing the ball one side of the other and then you’re preventing the easy reversal. You’re right, that might be a bit of an overplay. I’d argue that the middle is the best place for them to be, that’s where the help is.
Back in the day, teams with centers would force everything into the middle. Georgetown and Patrick Ewing. Thanks for the post!

I may be wrong, but in today's game refs call the touch foul on the perimeter so much that guards tend to play more passively up top than in our day. I mean, there weren't as many refs as well and every perimeter foul today is right in someone face. Also in today's game forwards screens up top are being done by bigger bodies and more of them, forcing guards to really make quick decisions on whether to go above or below the screen.

 

[Boreifs]

I know we don't love talking X's and O's much on the BY, heck we've got a Mt. Rushmore HC, but I need some feedback on a defensive point.
Why do we allow the offense to reverse the ball.

Coaches can dictate offenses to do what they want them to do. Pack it in, make the O shoot jumpers. Switch on all screens. Go under screens, go over screens. Front the post. (my favorite that you rarely see anymore) Trap on ball screens. (we could do this, especially with Mir and Aubrey) Lots of strategies.

If the ball's on top, the defense can force the ball one side or the other. (again, game planning can dictate what you're gunna do, some teams are right-handed or left-handed). Then, when the ball goes to one side, the defense tries to keep it there. As if there is an imaginary dashed line that runs up the middle of the floor. Then, dictating that the game is played on one side, the defense is then able to lay for steals, set traps (corners and free-throw line extended), and even front the post(s). Defenders on players on the other side of the floor slide over and help. Some coaches call that imaginary dashed line "the wall".
Seems like we are passive on top. So, from there the offense can do what they want.
Thanks BY

That imaginary line is the “help line” that every serviceable coach teaches. You probably know that; just making sure.

 

[hoophuskee]

I know we don't love talking X's and O's much on the BY, heck we've got a Mt. Rushmore HC, but I need some feedback on a defensive point.
Why do we allow the offense to reverse the ball.

Coaches can dictate offenses to do what they want them to do. Pack it in, make the O shoot jumpers. Switch on all screens. Go under screens, go over screens. Front the post. (my favorite that you rarely see anymore) Trap on ball screens. (we could do this, especially with Mir and Aubrey) Lots of strategies.

If the ball's on top, the defense can force the ball one side or the other. (again, game planning can dictate what you're gunna do, some teams are right-handed or left-handed). Then, when the ball goes to one side, the defense tries to keep it there. As if there is an imaginary dashed line that runs up the middle of the floor. Then, dictating that the game is played on one side, the defense is then able to lay for steals, set traps (corners and free-throw line extended), and even front the post(s). Defenders on players on the other side of the floor slide over and help. Some coaches call that imaginary dashed line "the wall".
Seems like we are passive on top. So, from there the offense can do what they want.
Thanks BY

1-- IMO we allow it because the top priority is to provide help defense for a teammate. For example, if Evina is beyond the top of the key and out to 3 pt range or a bit farther trying to deny the ball- she is is no position to help if for example Paige or AMak get beat off the dribble toward the middle. The priority is to protect the paint. Denying the ball out too far exposes the defense for dribble penetration, or pick and roll penetration. Also- IMO nowadays many guards can go both right or left.

And a good team with good guards potentially can backdoor you to death.

2-- IMO coaches cannot limit what opposing teams can do. They are limited by the abilities of their players ability to execute. For example just because a team plays a zone and packs it in doesn't mean they can stop another from getting into the paint.

Secondly- just because you say "Just switch" doesn't mean it should be part of the game plan. For example- do you want Liv exposed defending a quick guard that can either hit step-back 3's (or even very open 2's) using her quickness off the dribble, or expose Liv to a crafty guard's ability of drawing touch fouls? Do you really want to always give the refs that opportunity? Think of all the ND games they get touched and it's like they got hit with a club. And if you are so intent on denying the reversal then you are taking away one player who can provide additional help defense.

If Liv traps on ball screens she will be susceptible of getting into foul trouble 20+ feet from the basket with touch fouls from the quicker guard that won't give up her dribble.

 

[Bronxjeff]

I thought Aubrey was the only player being disruptive at the top. Mir will be as time goes on.

I think Mir got out there on her man a few times in the second half. I admit this was my first time watching any of these new players and I "needed the scorecard to tell the players"!

 

[UcMiami]

Geno always teaches his defensive players to force to the sidelines and the baseline. And he teaches his offense to always move toward the center as they bring the ball up.

A player at the center line of the court can go either way and as such has an advantage over the defender.

Typically, Uconn players play a center line player straight up, but as soon as they commit to a direction Geno wants to keep forcing them in that direct by overplaying the center. Early in a season, new players have a tendency to 'overplay' the overplay - leaving too much of an angle toward the basket and inside the defender. I saw a bit of that today.

The idea is not to prevent passes back toward the center but to prevent the player driving toward the center.

(Specific opponent players may be extremely left or right handed in which case the scouting report may specify overplaying one side against that player even at the center line, but teams as a whole are seldom heavily weighted left or right.)

 

[JonathanXIV]

At the heart of every defensive philosophy, in most every sport, is to make the offense do what it doesn't like/want to do. That can mean depriving their best shooter from shooting, keep them out of the paint, guarding the 3 point line, etc. Think of how Belichick modifies his defense week to week to take away what the other team does best.

 

[Plebe]

I know we don't love talking X's and O's much on the BY, heck we've got a Mt. Rushmore HC, but I need some feedback on a defensive point.
Why do we allow the offense to reverse the ball.

Coaches can dictate offenses to do what they want them to do. Pack it in, make the O shoot jumpers. Switch on all screens. Go under screens, go over screens. Front the post. (my favorite that you rarely see anymore) Trap on ball screens. (we could do this, especially with Mir and Aubrey) Lots of strategies.

If the ball's on top, the defense can force the ball one side or the other. (again, game planning can dictate what you're gunna do, some teams are right-handed or left-handed). Then, when the ball goes to one side, the defense tries to keep it there. As if there is an imaginary dashed line that runs up the middle of the floor. Then, dictating that the game is played on one side, the defense is then able to lay for steals, set traps (corners and free-throw line extended), and even front the post(s). Defenders on players on the other side of the floor slide over and help. Some coaches call that imaginary dashed line "the wall".
Seems like we are passive on top. So, from there the offense can do what they want.
Thanks BY

There's no easy or quick answer on this one, but defense is all about prioritizing which options to take away from — or at least make difficult for — the offense.

More often than not, the "next pass over" (from wing to top of key, elbow or low post) is a bigger threat than ball reversal; it takes less time and is harder for the defense to react to if not already in position to deny or guard closely. Ball reversal is often the least of evils because, in theory, the length of the pass should give the weak-side defenders enough time to shift.

 

[SVCBeercats]

I know we don't love talking X's and O's much on the BY, heck we've got a Mt. Rushmore HC, but I need some feedback on a defensive point.

You want answers! You want answers! I give you the answers!

Geno Auriemma's Complete Defensive System - Basketball -- Championship Productions, Inc.

Geno Auriemma's Complete Defensive System - Basketball -- Championship Productions, Inc.

www.championshipproductions.com

 

[MD#12Fan]

Geno always teaches his defensive players to force to the sidelines and the baseline. And he teaches his offense to always move toward the center as they bring the ball up.

A player at the center line of the court can go either way and as such has an advantage over the defender.

Typically, Uconn players play a center line player straight up, but as soon as they commit to a direction Geno wants to keep forcing them in that direct by overplaying the center. Early in a season, new players have a tendency to 'overplay' the overplay - leaving too much of an angle toward the basket and inside the defender. I saw a bit of that today.

The idea is not to prevent passes back toward the center but to prevent the player driving toward the center.

(Specific opponent players may be extremely left or right handed in which case the scouting report may specify overplaying one side against that player even at the center line, but teams as a whole are seldom heavily weighted left or right.)

That's how I learned it. I appreciate your feedback.
I would argue that ball reversal, especially if it's easy is worse than getting beat in the middle, where there's help. When the ball swings, all 5 defenders have to move, which by definition disrupts the defense and leaves openings. A drive middle requires less adjustment.
I felt like we did not make ball reversal difficult for them. Reminder: UMass did not make ANY shots and we gave up a ton of open looks.

 

[MD#12Fan]

There's no easy or quick answer on this one, but defense is all about prioritizing which options to take away from — or at least make difficult for — the offense.

More often than not, the "next pass over" (from wing to top of key, elbow or low post) is a bigger threat than ball reversal; it takes less time and is harder for the defense to react to if not already in position to deny or guard closely. Ball reversal is often the least of evils because, in theory, the length of the pass should give the weak-side defenders enough time to shift.

I agree. I was taught that good defense in basketball actually dictates to the offense what you are going to give them. It's not just reacting, although of course it's that too. And of course it depends on your talent.
I would argue that we have the talent to pressure the ball (even force the ball where you want it to go), get in the passing lanes, move and help, and block shots and/or take charges near the basket.
Not sure what we took away from UMass.

 

[CocoHusky]

I may be wrong, but in today's game refs call the touch foul on the perimeter so much that guards tend to play more passively up top than in our day. I mean, there weren't as many refs as well and every perimeter foul today is right in someone face. Also in today's game forwards screens up top are being done by bigger bodies and more of them, forcing guards to really make quick decisions on whether to go above or below the screen.

That perimeter rule (one touch then disengage) changed during 13-14 season and Geno and CD did a great job of teaching the team to adjust to the new rules and would lead the nation in fewest fouls for that season and the next 2. One other factor that has evolved in the last decade or so that makes skipping the ball cross court less likely is the incredible range the young guns are shooting from. When you combine the influence of players like Steph Curry , Dame Lillard and Trey Young you are seeing more shot attempts from the places where previously the skip pass was the only play. In the old days when you pushed the ball handler into the coffin corner it was to the defense advantage-not so much any more. You can clearly see this in the range of young guns Saylor, Caroline and Malaysia Fulwiley.

 

[meyers7]

I felt like we did not make ball reversal difficult for them. Reminder: UMass did not make ANY shots and we gave up a ton of open looks.

Maybe, maybe, the point of their defensive scheme was not to prevent ball reversal, but rather to only allow shots from certain spots. Places were UMASS did not shoot very well. And prevent them from shooting were they shot better??? As such, UMASS shot 14% from the field and 7% from the 3pt. Whatever, their plan, it worked really, really well don't you think?

I mean if ball reversal isn't going to hurt you, why bother preventing it???

 

[MD#12Fan]

Certainly could be spun that way, no doubt about it.
I'm talking more about defensive philosophy. The stuff coaches talk about on the first day of practice. Game planning is different.
I would make a different argument, that ball reversal is priority 1 for a defense. Worse than getting beat off the dribble. Got help for that occurrence. Obviously the defense rotates as the ball is reversed but all 5 defenders have to adjust at the same time, even if it just means turning your head. Good O takes advantage of that.
So, you're assuming that Geno game planned for Lowell to have open 3's for virtually the whole game. That the shooting percentage was a result of the defense and the game plan. Ok, go for it! Personally I lean toward really bad shooting.

 

[meyers7]

Certainly could be spun that way, no doubt about it.
I'm talking more about defensive philosophy. The stuff coaches talk about on the first day of practice. Game planning is different.
I would make a different argument, that ball reversal is priority 1 for a defense. Worse than getting beat off the dribble. Got help for that occurrence. Obviously the defense rotates as the ball is reversed but all 5 defenders have to adjust at the same time, even if it just means turning your head. Good O takes advantage of that.
So, you're assuming that Geno game planned for Lowell to have open 3's for virtually the whole game. That the shooting percentage was a result of the defense and the game plan. Ok, go for it! Personally I lean toward really bad shooting.

I know, isn't it funny that UCONN sets up a defensive scheme for a team and they just happen to shoot badly that exact game? Weird how that coincidence seems to happen all the time.

 

[MD#12Fan]

I know, isn't it funny that UCONN sets up a defensive scheme for a team and they just happen to shoot badly that exact game? Weird how that coincidence seems to happen all the time.

Could be a conspiracy! Could Geno have bugged Shea Ralph's house in order to devise the perfect defensive scheme.
"Come on man", I like drinking the koolaid too but I don't dump the pitcher over my head. That team was the bottom of D1. Like University of Maryland vs University of Maryland- Eastern Shore or Goucher College. 100-30.