Women's professional sports is a really hard sell | The Boneyard

Women's professional sports is a really hard sell

SVCBeercats

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I googled my way through women's professional sports leagues. I found two in which women participate that are successful. They are Professional Beach Volleyball and the Lingerie Football League (rebranded as the Legends Football League). In fact the LFL has expanded internationally into Canada and Australia. I'll let you comment as to why. Perhaps the UFC is making a go of women in bikinis beating the hell out of each other. Otherwise all women's professional sports leagues struggle even with financial subsidies. I must admit I don't watch many WNBA games. I watch highlights of WNBA games in which former UCONN players participated. I follow how individual UCONN grads are doing but that is it. But I don't watch NBA games as well. The list of failed professional sports leagues is very long for both men and women. It appears their marketing was poor or non-existent for so many to fail. On the right we have the LFL pandering to its market’s prurient interests and on the left the WNBA marketing their social rights agenda. Perhaps there is a middle ground approach which will be successful for the WNBA.
 
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CocoHusky

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I googled my way through women's professional sports leagues. I found two in which women participate that are successful. They are Professional Beach Volleyball and the Lingerie Football League (rebranded as the Legends Football League). In fact the LFL has expanded internationally into Canada and Australia. I'll let you comment as to why. Perhaps the UFC is making a go of women in bikinis beating the hell out of each other. Otherwise all women's professional sports leagues struggle even with financial subsidies. I must admit I don't watch many WNBA games. I watch highlights of WNBA games in which former UCONN players participated. I follow how individual UCONN grads are doing but that is it. But I don't watch NBA games as well. The list of failed professional sports leagues is very long for both men and women. It appears their marketing was poor or non-existent for so many to fail. On the right we have the LFL pandering to its market’s prurient interests and on the left the WNBA marketing their social rights agenda. Perhaps there is a middle ground approach which will be successful for the WNBA.
This analysis, or more accurately, the lack of analysis, on the failure of sports leagues rings very hollow. Besides the LFL already had teams in Canada (Angels) and Australia (Surge & Maidens).
 
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SVCBeercats

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This analysis, or more accurately, the lack of analysis, on the failure of sports leagues rings very hollow. Besides the LFL already had teams in Canada (Angels) and Australia (Surge).

Add you response is solid? Riiiight! :)

What I wrote was not an analysis. It is my personal observation after reading about all of the failed sports leagues, both men and women. Bottom: there is only a niche market for women's professional sports. So EDD don't expect a huge manly paycheck. If you cannot attract the 18-34 market, forget about it.

The LFL began in 2009. It expanded into Canada in 2012/13 and into Australia in 2013/14. My point in mentioning their international expansion was to emphasize their success and financial health without a NBA or a MLB (Women's Fast Pitch League) providing sufficient subsidies to continue as a business. The IRS at one time required a business to produce a profit in a given period of time or the IRS for tax purposes view it as a hobby. Actually I doubt if the NBA and MLB care if their women's sports hobby earns a profit. They just want to try to attract women to the NBA and MLB.
 

SVCBeercats

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I think you are probably referring to womens "team sports leagues". Women's Tennis and Golf are popular do really well financially.
Correct. My bad for the poor wording. Thank you.
 

Monte

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There are too many team sports today.
I am comparing today with the team sports of 50-60 years ago.
While growing up, I only remember Baseball, Football, Hockey, and Basketball, with some mention of Soccer.
 

BigBird

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Add to the list the NHRA. Since Shirley Muldowny raced in the 1970’s, the NHRA has had quite a few women who raced against men and consistently won. Ashley, Brittany, and Courtney Force have been winners. Add Angelle Sampey, Alexis DeJoria, Leah Prichett, and Erica Enders-Stevens. Most of these not only won races, but won season championships. The women of NHRA are certainly a drawing card, but so are their male counterparts. So, comparing drag racing to the WNBA might not be a totally fair comparison.

But the marketing of the successful women’s sports should serve as a template for others to consider. The U.S. Women’s National Soccer Team attracts brigades of fans, especially young girls and their mothers. If you’ve spent any time at all around youth soccer, the USWNT images and gear are everywhere.

Here are a few notions that might help the WNBA, even if they run counter to current culture and practices. In no particular priority:

1- Encourage players to identify themselves with non-hyphenated surnames. Marital status or lack of it isn’t relevant to the game.
2- Fans don’t care who you love, why you love, or how you love. Keep your personal relationships a little less public.
3- Get your games on just one or two reliable TV channels. Fans tire of looking all over for games. Streaming on Twitter isn’t the way.
4- Plan for league expansion. Avoid the retrenchment mindset.
5- The NBA could easily afford 25 million to support better WNBA salaries. Our players running off to Russia or China isn’t a good look.
6- Insist that broadcast announcers stick to the damned game. Peripheral digressions indicate a boring product.
7- Get and reward better officials. Some of the WNBA refs shouldn’t be allowed to ref high school games.
8- The NBA channel needs to re-play ALL WNBA games more than once, even if it means fewer talking head panel shows about the NBA.

I’ll probably catch flames for this post, but the WNBA can’t keep doing the same things while expecting a different result.
 
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Right now, the WNBA is full of very talented players and the product is at an all time high. So the league steps on its own feet and trips by promoting itself as radical social warriors and thereby making it as uncomfortable as possible for middle America to sit and enjoy a game with their family. Good game plan. Sure it is. They have had awful leadership and they need a new direction, not with the product, which is getting better and better, but with their marketing strategy. The WNBA may never catch on with the average American. I talk to people and they think I'm crazy for liking it, even though they have never watched a game.
 

BigBird

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Right now, the WNBA is full of very talented players and the product is at an all time high. So the league steps on its own feet and trips by promoting itself as radical social warriors and thereby making it as uncomfortable as possible for middle America to sit and enjoy a game with their family. Good game plan. Sure it is. They have had awful leadership and they need a new direction, not with the product, which is getting better and better, but with their marketing strategy. The WNBA may never catch on with the average American. I talk to people and they think I'm crazy for liking it, even though they have never watched a game.

Roger, I agree with you for the most part, even if I am somewhat personally aligned with whatever the WNBA players’ agenda is. My take is that narrowing your market segment when you are already a niche sport seems unwise. It isn’t about MY values, but the values of the average person, whatever that means.
 
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Add to the list the NHRA. Since Shirley Muldowny raced in the 1970’s, the NHRA has had quite a few women who raced against men and consistently won. Ashley, Brittany, and Courtney Force have been winners. Add Angelle Sampey, Alexis DeJoria, Leah Prichett, and Erica Enders-Stevens. Most of these not only won races, but won season championships. The women of NHRA are certainly a drawing card, but so are their male counterparts. So, comparing drag racing to the WNBA might not be a totally fair comparison.

But the marketing of the successful women’s sports should serve as a template for others to consider. The U.S. Women’s National Soccer Team attracts brigades of fans, especially young girls and their mothers. If you’ve spent any time at all around youth soccer, the USWNT images and gear are everywhere.

Here are a few notions that might help the WNBA, even if they run counter to current culture and practices. In no particular priority:

1- Encourage players to identify themselves with non-hyphenated surnames. Marital status or lack of it isn’t relevant to the game.
2- Fans don’t care who you love, why you love, or how you love. Keep your personal relationships a little less public.
3- Get your games on just one or two reliable TV channels. Fans tire of looking all over for games. Streaming on Twitter isn’t the way.
4- Plan for league expansion. Avoid the retrenchment mindset.
5- The NBA could easily afford 25 million to support better WNBA salaries. Our players running off to Russia or China isn’t a good look.
6- Insist that broadcast announcers stick to the damned game. Peripheral digressions indicate a boring product.
7- Get and reward better officials. Some of the WNBA refs shouldn’t be allowed to ref high school games.
8- The NBA channel needs to re-play ALL WNBA games more than once, even if it means fewer talking head panel shows about the NBA.

I’ll probably catch flames for this post, but the WNBA can’t keep doing the same things while expecting a different result.
Agree they're doing a crappy job of marketing. No focus, and ineffective execution. What about some good old fashioned segmentation and targeting?

Also agree with some of your proposed solutions, but not sure some are realistic. #1, 2 & 6 are good, and appear to be "no cost" changes. The rest cost money, for instance #5: Warren Buffet could also easily afford to subsidize WNBA salaries but he, too, doesn't like to invest in money losing ventures. I guess the question is what exactly is the anticipated impact of each of these investments, why do we feel they would have that impact, when do we think we will get the payback, and how do we measure results between now & then? The WNBA seems to lack even the most fundamental marketing thought process.
 

Orangutan

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1- Encourage players to identify themselves with non-hyphenated surnames. Marital status or lack of it isn’t relevant to the game.
2- Fans don’t care who you love, why you love, or how you love. Keep your personal relationships a little less public.

I could only come up with two hyphenated names due to marriages, Skylar Diggins-Smith and Karima Christmas-Kelly. Most of the hyphenated names have nothing to do with the players marital status (e.g. Mosqueda-Lewis, Walker-Kimbrough, Hines-Allen).

I feel like #2 has never been said about male players. "Basketball Wives" was on VH1 for seven seasons. So it seems that fans might be interested in players' relationships. I have more comments on this point but I don't want to get this thread locked or cesspool'd
 
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When you discuss the popularity of women's sports, you have to begin at the basics. And the most basic fact is this. Men drive sports consumption. So if you have set yourself to the task of creating a popular sport, you're going to have to produce a sport that men want to watch. You can't produce the sport that you think men should watch and then try to shape their behavior accordingly. These efforts will fail.

The most basic problem for women's athletics is the perception of competitive inferiority. Women are not seen as peer athletes in most sports. Two years ago, the Australian Women's National Team - a team that would legitimately compete for the gold medal at the 2016 Summer Olympics - was defeated 7-0 in a warm-up game by a U15 boy's team. To put it bluntly, one of the best women's soccer teams in the world was crushed by a group of 14 year-old boys. There followed many rationalizations and excuses, but nothing could erase the revelation of that stark outcome - that professional women's sports exist at about the boy's early high school level. This is the perception that most men have about most women's sports. Their experience tells them it exists at competitive level far below the men's game. For good or ill, men judge women's sports by the standard of men's sports. This is a standard that women cannot hope to meet and so men tend to dismiss women's athletics outright. There are many people who think that a woman's sport should be evaluated on its own terms and that men should be retrained to adopt this new standard. This is why I stated above that you have to produce a sport that men want to watch and not the sport you think they should watch. The retraining effort will fail.

There are some few sports where men and women compete openly against each other. Show jumping comes to mind. This sport does not emphasize masculine advantages but depends solely on the skill of the rider. Men and women compete openly against each other and no one thinks anything about it. Why? Because they are legitimate peer competitors. When a woman by virtue of biological disadvantage cannot be a peer competitor to a man at the same competitive level, then the vast majority of men will not take her seriously enough to pay money and spend time watching. This is why most women's sports will always be very niche sports.
 

KnightBridgeAZ

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When you discuss the popularity of women's sports, you have to begin at the basics. And the most basic fact is this. Men drive sports consumption. So if you have set yourself to the task of creating a popular sport, you're going to have to produce a sport that men want to watch. You can't produce the sport that you think men should watch and then try to shape their behavior accordingly. These efforts will fail.

The most basic problem for women's athletics is the perception of competitive inferiority. Women are not seen as peer athletes in most sports. Two years ago, the Australian Women's National Team - a team that would legitimately compete for the gold medal at the 2016 Summer Olympics - was defeated 7-0 in a warm-up game by a U15 boy's team. To put it bluntly, one of the best women's soccer teams in the world was crushed by a group of 14 year-old boys. There followed many rationalizations and excuses, but nothing could erase the revelation of that stark outcome - that professional women's sports exist at about the boy's early high school level. This is the perception that most men have about most women's sports. Their experience tells them it exists at competitive level far below the men's game. For good or ill, men judge women's sports by the standard of men's sports. This is a standard that women cannot hope to meet and so men tend to dismiss women's athletics outright. There are many people who think that a woman's sport should be evaluated on its own terms and that men should be retrained to adopt this new standard. This is why I stated above that you have to produce a sport that men want to watch and not the sport you think they should watch. The retraining effort will fail.

There are some few sports where men and women compete openly against each other. Show jumping comes to mind. This sport does not emphasize masculine advantages but depends solely on the skill of the rider. Men and women compete openly against each other and no one thinks anything about it. Why? Because they are legitimate peer competitors. When a woman by virtue of biological disadvantage cannot be a peer competitor to a man at the same competitive level, then the vast majority of men will not take her seriously enough to pay money and spend time watching. This is why most women's sports will always be very niche sports.
While your over-arching point that you can't have a sport that you think men should watch and everything that goes with that sounds good, I do have some comments about the rest:
- I would hope that the beat-down by that U15 boys team did have some mitigating factors. I agree that women cannot compete successful against men's teams in most - probably all - traditional team sports. But that is not who the women are competing against. They are competing against other women.
- The perception that the competitive level is so far below the men's game really reflects what part of the sport folks value. When I watch women's sports - even sports I don't care for - I don't see any particular lack of skill. Can they do the things that men can do in most cases - no. In hockey maybe they don't skate or shoot as fast, in basketball they aren't dunking, in soccer they aren't (I assume) doing those over-the-head kicks, etc. But I've seen plenty of great shots and stick handling in Women's hockey (a sport I don't particularly like (but don't hate, either)), I love Women's basketball and I don't like soccer - men's or women's, but I've seen clips of very exciting women's competitions.
 
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What sport isn't a hard sell at one point? How many times has there been a professional soccer league developed, in America, that did not pan out will?
 
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When you discuss the popularity of women's sports, you have to begin at the basics. And the most basic fact is this. Men drive sports consumption. So if you have set yourself to the task of creating a popular sport, you're going to have to produce a sport that men want to watch. You can't produce the sport that you think men should watch and then try to shape their behavior accordingly. These efforts will fail.

The most basic problem for women's athletics is the perception of competitive inferiority. Women are not seen as peer athletes in most sports. Two years ago, the Australian Women's National Team - a team that would legitimately compete for the gold medal at the 2016 Summer Olympics - was defeated 7-0 in a warm-up game by a U15 boy's team. To put it bluntly, one of the best women's soccer teams in the world was crushed by a group of 14 year-old boys. There followed many rationalizations and excuses, but nothing could erase the revelation of that stark outcome - that professional women's sports exist at about the boy's early high school level. This is the perception that most men have about most women's sports. Their experience tells them it exists at competitive level far below the men's game. For good or ill, men judge women's sports by the standard of men's sports. This is a standard that women cannot hope to meet and so men tend to dismiss women's athletics outright. There are many people who think that a woman's sport should be evaluated on its own terms and that men should be retrained to adopt this new standard. This is why I stated above that you have to produce a sport that men want to watch and not the sport you think they should watch. The retraining effort will fail.

There are some few sports where men and women compete openly against each other. Show jumping comes to mind. This sport does not emphasize masculine advantages but depends solely on the skill of the rider. Men and women compete openly against each other and no one thinks anything about it. Why? Because they are legitimate peer competitors. When a woman by virtue of biological disadvantage cannot be a peer competitor to a man at the same competitive level, then the vast majority of men will not take her seriously enough to pay money and spend time watching. This is why most women's sports will always be very niche sports.
I think many of your points are well taken.
I agree that most men and unfortunately a good number of women (this is a discussion in and of itself) do not appreciate the subtleties of teamwork. My wife and daughter (who played HS and AAU basketball and still plays against guys at now age 34) aren't interested in women's basketball or soccer, both of which I love. My daughter and her husband just spent a good sum of money to buy tickets, drive to Boston from NYC, stay overnight in an air b&b to see 7th game of eastern championship to watch and root for Lebron. Why is that?
I hope this is not viewed as political, as it's truly societal. As our world supposedly evolves, in most if not all cases, as women become viewed as more equal, women in order to succeed adapt to take on more male traits rather than vice versa. Some or much of this, has an economic / financial basis. I truly wish it was men taking on women's traits, but that ain't happening any time soon if ever.
The reason many those here myself included love U Conn women's basketball is the ongoing and continued excellence, very high demands and expectations, ball and body movement, and truly incredible team play. As I am writing this I just realized that to a degree I too fall into this same trap. My criticisms stated here fairly often with the last two seasons results (which are pretty incredibly as to reaching the semi-final each year), was the inability of the great team play, wonderful passing, movement to overcome a quality, well coached, well prepared opponent each with a player or two who could excel in crunch time in truly huge games and moments. The lack of a member of the holy trinity aside, it didn't work.
Also even with the greatness of those three, many won't and don't go see their unbelievable skill sets. Very, very sad but very, very true. Either because they and a few other greats can't dunk or sky above the rim at incredible speeds, or don't look or behave a certain pre-determined way, or have certain social or societal beliefs or whatever other reasons. It is just not viewed as cool or popular to admit that one likes or loves, and will pay for watching and admiring what the women's game brings whether it be basketball, soccer, softball, hockey, etc.
I have some thoughts and ideas about what it would take but they either become more political / societal and would likely fall on many deaf ears.
Sadly, even with much better marketing which is sorely needed, do I believe it will change this issue to any significant degree.
Sorry to be such a downer on a early summer weekend.
Bronx23
 
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SVCBeercats

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"KnightBridgeAZ, post: 2737478, member: 591"] in basketball they aren't dunking

It goes beyond dunking. The UCONN women admit the lose to the male practice players every day in practice. Men are just far more athletic. It isn't close. I would bet on a good boys high school team beating any of UCONN's women NCAA championship teams.
 
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I think many of your points are well taken.
I agree that most men and unfortunately a good number of women (this is a discussion in and of itself) do not appreciate the subtleties of teamwork. My wife and daughter (who played HS and AAU basketball and still plays against guys at now age 34) aren't interested in women's basketball or soccer, both of which I love. My daughter and her husband just spent a good sum of money to buy tickets, drive to Boston from NYC, stay overnight in an air b&b to see 7th game of eastern championship to watch and root for Lebron. Why is that?
I hope this is not viewed as political, as it's truly societal. As our world supposedly evolves, in most if not all cases, as women become viewed as more equal, women in order to succeed adapt to take on more male traits rather than vice versa. Some or much of this, has an economic / financial basis. I truly wish it was men taking on women's traits, but that ain't happening any time soon if ever.
The reason many those here myself included love U Conn women's basketball is the ongoing and continued excellence, very high demands and expectations, ball and body movement, and truly incredible team play. As I am writing this I just realized that to a degree I too fall into this same trap. My criticisms stated here fairly often with the last two seasons results (which are pretty incredibly as to reaching the semi-final each year), was the inability of the great team play, wonderful passing, movement to overcome a quality, well coached, well prepared opponent each with a player or two who could excel in crunch time in truly huge games and moments. The lack of a member of the holy trinity aside, it didn't work.
Also even with the greatness of those three, many won't and don't go see their unbelievable skill sets. Very, very sad but very, very true. Either because they and a few other greats can't dunk or sky above the rim at incredible speeds, or don't look or behave a certain pre-determined way, or have certain social or societal beliefs or whatever other reasons. It is just not viewed as cool or popular to admit that one likes or loves, and will pay for watching and admiring what the women's game brings whether it be basketball, soccer, softball, hockey, etc.
I have some thoughts and ideas about what it would take but they either become more political / societal and would likely fall on many deaf ears.
Sadly, even with much better marketing which is sorely needed, do I believe it will change this issue to any significant degree.
Sorry to be such a downer on a early summer weekend.
Bronx23
I picked our post Bronx23 because I believe we tend to agree many times. A few simple points I like to share about this:

- Equal does not mean Sameness .... Women are 100% equal to men. They are very different however and it should be celebrated : - ) Because my wife is so different is what has made me a better ..(fill in almost anything.) Dunking is not the issue because even as more women can dunk it will not be in the same manner that men are doing it; i.e. doing it over 2 opposing players on an alley-opp.

- Distractions and too many options .... there are 500 channels and 100 different sports to chose from. I don't have cable nor the time to watch all my Yankee games, much less tune into tons of other sports.

- I think one of the most important points is simply the level of play. Does not matter boy or girl, woman or man. People want to watch the top level of play period. With limited time and increase of options its even more the case. Example, how many people watch DIII womens basketball vs DI? Same sport and same sex, its about the level of play. More people watch DI because the level of play is better.

- If there is not enough interest to support a league (men or women) then it should not exist. We are not talking about necessities of life here. There are tons of talented people that are not able to display their abilities in front of millions of people in a league on TV.

Just a few thoughts but glad there is enough interest to have WCBB and UConn so I can watch their games.
 

the Q

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"KnightBridgeAZ, post: 2737478, member: 591"] in basketball they aren't dunking

It goes beyond dunking. The UCONN women admit the lose to the male practice players every day in practice. Men are just far more athletic. It isn't close. I would bet on a good boys high school team beating any of UCONN's women NCAA championship teams.

I remember in college meeting a guy who used to work at the casino.

He was the Sun players were routinely thrown out of practice because the male practice players would just mop the floor with them.

the physical disparities are staggering.
 

vtcwbuff

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I have been a fan of UConn WCBB for more than 25 years and a fan of the LPGA for much longer than that. It cracks me up when I read stuff like "Taurasi could play in the NBA" or "Sorenstam could compete on the PGA tour."

About competitive inferiority - I walk daily at a local track. They also have little league baseball and girl's softball fields and we often stop to watch the games. The kids are about the same age but the difference in athleticism and skills are night and day. Hitting, fielding, throwing (yup, lots of the girls throw like a girl) and running, there is just no comparison. I enjoy watching the little league play, but the softball is almost painful to watch.

BTW - Who remembers the Colorado Silver Bullet fiasco.?
 

the Q

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While your over-arching point that you can't have a sport that you think men should watch and everything that goes with that sounds good, I do have some comments about the rest:
- I would hope that the beat-down by that U15 boys team did have some mitigating factors. I agree that women cannot compete successful against men's teams in most - probably all - traditional team sports. But that is not who the women are competing against. They are competing against other women.
- The perception that the competitive level is so far below the men's game really reflects what part of the sport folks value. When I watch women's sports - even sports I don't care for - I don't see any particular lack of skill. Can they do the things that men can do in most cases - no. In hockey maybe they don't skate or shoot as fast, in basketball they aren't dunking, in soccer they aren't (I assume) doing those over-the-head kicks, etc. But I've seen plenty of great shots and stick handling in Women's hockey (a sport I don't particularly like (but don't hate, either)), I love Women's basketball and I don't like soccer - men's or women's, but I've seen clips of very exciting women's competitions.

You make some really good points. But the fact that you have those clear disparities is a major reason why that perception exists.

No one mentions that 2 of the most successful franchises of the past 20 years (San Antonio and Golden State) run an offense very similar to what Geno has run well before them.
 

BigBird

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I could only come up with two hyphenated names due to marriages, Skylar Diggins-Smith and Karima Christmas-Kelly. Most of the hyphenated names have nothing to do with the players marital status (e.g. Mosqueda-Lewis, Walker-Kimbrough, Hines-Allen).

I feel like #2 has never been said about male players. "Basketball Wives" was on VH1 for seven seasons. So it seems that fans might be interested in players' relationships. I have more comments on this point but I don't want to get this thread locked or cesspool'd

Yes, this probably wasn’t my finest post. Like you, I was also trying to avoid annoying the mods by laying it between the lines. I would have done better to just let it go.

Yet, there are elephants at the table that are difficult and sensitive to discuss, and so we don’t.

I think the broadcast piece of it is big, though. Imagine if all games were on say, just ESPN2 and the NBA channel. Whether live or recorded, this would give the sport an accessibility, predictability and presence that it mostly doesn’t have today.
 

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