Which is it: Coaching or recruiting

[DefenseBB]

To build and sustain a program, which skill is the FIRST skill a HC needs to have. I want to see what our colleagues think and we can see a few case scenarios for each currently:
Scott Rueck at OSU
Karen Aston at Texas
I am leaving Holly out at the moment.

 

[Vowelguy]

You of course need both. And while good coaching can help recruiting, there is no guarantee. You have to be able to do both well.

I'd also like to question the term 'recruiting.' I gather great recruiting is assumed to mean "getting highly ranked recruits." I disagree. IMO, great recruiting means finding the *right* players for your coaching style and team.

For example, who's to say Rueck is not getting overlooked gems? Or not getting the players that he knows exactly how to coach and bring out their potential?

Coaching & recruiting are intertwined.

 

[itsasport]

No new program can attract top players initially.

So, FIRST you have to demonstrate increasing success by coaching the best individual and team skills in players born with moderate God-given talent.

I hear tell that's how someone named "Geno" something (can't pronounce or spell the name) did it.

Was this a trick question?

 

[nwhoopfan]

I'd also like to question the term 'recruiting.' I gather great recruiting is assumed to mean "getting highly ranked recruits." I disagree. IMO, great recruiting means finding the *right* players for your coaching style and team.

For example, who's to say Rueck is not getting overlooked gems? Or not getting the players that he knows exactly how to coach and bring out their potential?

Yes, critically evaluating players is very important. I think it's clear to say retroactively that Weisner, Hamblin, Wiese and Gulich were all better than their recruiting rankings (or lack thereof) suggested. And that they all fit his system. Also helped establish a culture for the program that is carrying forward now that all of them have graduated.

 

[BroadwayVa]

To build and sustain a program, which skill is the FIRST skill a HC needs to have. I want to see what our colleagues think and we can see a few case scenarios for each currently:
Scott Rueck at OSU
Karen Aston at Texas
I am leaving Holly out at the moment.

I go along with Vowel Guy on the Wording--Getting recruits is --Using Geno own words make a good coach look great. Without top talent as has been seen top 100 players rarely if ever become a standout that leads a team to the NC or close.
Good coaches with top talent can drag them far. Poor coaches no matter the talent shall never reach the heights.

 

[Zanzman]

Have to over achieve to attract higher level talent step by step and then get a local good if not great recruit that’s buys in Lobo or Chris Smith on the men’s side

 

[bennyskid]

The most important thing: Have the right vision.
Step One: Sell your vision to the best players who will pay attention.
Step Two: Be consistent to that vision in every practice, every game, and everything you do with the team.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat . . .

You can be successful for a while just by recruiting Kelsey Plum, but consistent success requires assembling a system that perpetuates success. Failed coaches either 1) have no vision (or have a bad vision), 2) can't sell the vision (or sell it to the wrong players), or 3) can't pass that vision on to the players (usually for lack of consistency).

That vision directs how you practice, the types of offensive and defensive sets you run, which fundamentals you choose to focus on from day to day. It lets you strip away extraneous things and concentrate on skills that matter most in your system. The players will have more mental focus, and when they get confused or frustrated they'll recover more easily, knowing that there is something solid that they can grab on to. In time, your fans will begin to recognize what you are doing, and once you start winning they'll all say, "Damn, that's how basketball should be played!"

 

[SVCBeercats]

To build and sustain a program, which skill is the FIRST skill a HC needs to have. I want to see what our colleagues think.

What is the coach's realistic goal? For Geno and CD it is compete in the NCAA final four each year. Win the NCAA Championship most years. This requires the best talent as in Rebecca, Maya, Tina, Stewie, and Diana. Or an amazing recruiting class - TASS(K) Force. Then comes the coaching. Still important BUT without the serious talent coaching by itself does not win championships. As Geno says now he is like everyone else (and he was serious).
With the serious talent - 11 National NCAA Championships
1995 - Lobo, Elliott, Rizzotti Webber, Wolters, & Berube
2000 - Ralph, Schumacher, Svetlana, & the TASS Force
2002 - Bird, Taurasi, Cash, Jones, and Williams
2003 - Taurasi & Co.
2004 - Taurasi & Co.
2009 - Moore, Charles et al
2010 - Moore, Charles et al
2013 - Stewart et al
2014 - Stewart et al
2015 - Stewart et al
2016 - Stewart et al
Without the serious talent - ZERO National NCAA Championships

 

[BroadwayVa]

What is the coach's realistic goal? For Geno and CD it is compete in the NCAA final four each year. Win the NCAA Championship most years. This requires the best talent as in Rebecca, Maya, Tina, Stewie, and Diana. Or an amazing recruiting class - TASS(K) Force. Then comes the coaching. Still important BUT without the serious talent coaching by itself does not win championships. As Geno says now he is like everyone else (and he was serious).
With the serious talent - 11 National NCAA Championships
1995 - Lobo, Elliott, Rizzotti Webber, Wolters, & Berube
2000 - Ralph, Schumacher, Svetlana, & the TASS Force
2002 - Bird, Taurasi, Cash, Jones, and Williams
2003 - Taurasi & Co.
2004 - Taurasi & Co.
2009 - Moore, Charles et al
2010 - Moore, Charles et al
2013 - Stewart et al
2014 - Stewart et al
2015 - Stewart et al
2016 - Stewart et al
Without the serious talent - ZERO National NCAA Championships

That says it all, almost, a coach or three has recruited well, maybe not this well, and have not broken through the NC barrier. This seems to say one without the other doesn't work.

 

[paisan]

Getting excellent players who fill the positions that you need to fill out your team. Not necessarily top ranked recruits... having top ranked recruits who do not fill in your teams needs does not win titles...this is the position that Geno is in.

 

[SECbbfan24]

I think you need both but having one or two elite talents is critical IMO

The rest can be great role players

In WBB there seems to be a gap after certain point when it comes to the talent

 

[DefenseBB]

You of course need both. And while good coaching can help recruiting, there is no guarantee. You have to be able to do both well.

I'd also like to question the term 'recruiting.' I gather great recruiting is assumed to mean "getting highly ranked recruits." I disagree. IMO, great recruiting means finding the *right* players for your coaching style and team.

For example, who's to say Rueck is not getting overlooked gems? Or not getting the players that he knows exactly how to coach and bring out their potential?

Coaching & recruiting are intertwined.

Can I have the name of the lawyer you had review your posts? Obviously you either missed the word “FIRST” or you decided to give me a bit of the pain you experienced...

 

[baggerbob]

You of course need both. And while good coaching can help recruiting, there is no guarantee. You have to be able to do both well.

I'd also like to question the term 'recruiting.' I gather great recruiting is assumed to mean "getting highly ranked recruits." I disagree. IMO, great recruiting means finding the *right* players for your coaching style and team.

For example, who's to say Rueck is not getting overlooked gems? Or not getting the players that he knows exactly how to coach and bring out their potential?

Coaching & recruiting are intertwined.

I agree, great recruiting is getting great players, willing to commit to being part of a great team.

 

[CPD016]

Which came first The Chicken (Coach) - or The Egg (Players)

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

In my opinion, in order to begin building a program, you need to be able to coach them up. If a coach is building a program from scratch, and not taking over a winning program, it will be very difficult to recruit well until you've improved with the current players plus early recruits.

 

[bballnut90]

Best of the best are great at both. Good coaching is the backbone of it though. Recruiters who land prized players but cant coach end up with dysfunctional teams like Tennessee right now. As someone pointed out, it is crucial to get the right players though even if they arent highly ranked.

To be a consistent powerhouse like UCONN, Notre Dame, Stanford, Tennesse under Pat or Duke under GG, you need great players to maintain that success. Pat and Geno consistently had loaded rosters, Muffet's success took off once she started landing elite kids, Tara's best years have centered around prized recruits, and GG's best teams were loaded with talented kids. It is hard to maintain an elite program without top kids coming through.

To win a title in a given season, great coaching can get you there. Vic Schaefer took a team with 0 HS AAs to back to back title games and easily could have won 2 championships. His players werent chopped liver but last year he started three guards 5-6 and under and they went 37-2. All of his players improved by leaps and bounds under him. That is 100% coaching. Scott Rueck also has taken unheralded teams on great runs and gets the most out of his kids. Gonzaga and Marquette are other programs that look extremely good despite not having any highly touted recruits. The best coaches are ones whose teams are better than the sum of its parts.

 

[Puppy Love]

Great coaching matters more than recruiting when you are building. Our son played football in a youth league and they were always terrible. If they won one game a season, it was a miracle. I always said it was the coach, but my husband thought it was because the small town had too small of a talent pool. A new coach took over and they went from worst to first. It’s the same talent pool and you can’t recruit much in a town league (other than convincing kids to play). It’s much the same as having a great manager at work. Generally people don’t quit because the job was bad, they quit because the manager was terrible.

 

['nuff sed]

Great coaching matters more than recruiting when you are building. Our son played football in a youth league and they were always terrible. If they won one game a season, it was a miracle. I always said it was the coach, but my husband thought it was because the small town had too small of a talent pool. A new coach took over and they went from worst to first. It’s the same talent pool and you can’t recruit much in a town league (other than convincing kids to play). It’s much the same as having a great manager at work. Generally people don’t quit because the job was bad, they quit because the manager was terrible.

1. Coaching - the best get the best out of what they have.
Put players players in a position to succeed , regardless of skill level. Then coach them up.
Team build, putting those pieces together— sum greater than the parts approach.
Then winning - once you demonstrate success , everybody buys in. They can’t help not to.

Winning breeds winning attitude and attracts new talent.

The best coaches can start with what appears as nothing, build something out of it—and can coach any level of talent, in any situation, and get the best possible outcome.

If the best is a .500 season, they get it, if it’s a NC, they get a shot at that too.

And they never “sell out”. They always get the best of what they got, and don’t care about what anybody thinks.

 

[willtalk]

What Scott Rueck did at Oregon St when he took over in July of his first season was a tribute to coaching. 7 of the best players had left the team that was 11- 20 with a seventeen game losing streak under the previously fired coach. He had to bring in a plethora of walk on's and a volley ball player to even field a team. He still ended up with basically the same record as the previous coach his first season. His second season his only addition was an under the radar little recruited player Ali Gibson and the team improved to 20-13 and the 3rd round of the NIT. With time, as his record improved so did his recruiting. But is is notable that his first Mc Donald all American recruit will only arrive next season. He has done far more with less. That is a tribute to what can be accomplished with good coaching.

It must be noted that being a good coach involves more than basketball knowledge, X&O's and game day adjustments. It also involves knowing how to build a team. Picking the right players is very important. If you pick players that fill the right roles and complement each other that is better than throwing together a bunch of Prima Donna all stars as was done by NC a some seasons ago. Picking the right players has also been Geno's strength and was as much responsible for Uconns continued success as the rest of his coaching skills.

 

[VaConnFan11]

Great coaching will make you consistent and great recruiting will make you elite.

 

[CocoHusky]

The most important thing: Have the right vision.
Step One: Sell your vision to the best players who will pay attention.
Step Two: Be consistent to that vision in every practice, every game, and everything you do with the team.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat . . .

You can be successful for a while just by recruiting Kelsey Plum, but consistent success requires assembling a system that perpetuates success. Failed coaches either 1) have no vision (or have a bad vision), 2) can't sell the vision (or sell it to the wrong players), or 3) can't pass that vision on to the players (usually for lack of consistency).

That vision directs how you practice, the types of offensive and defensive sets you run, which fundamentals you choose to focus on from day to day. It lets you strip away extraneous things and concentrate on skills that matter most in your system. The players will have more mental focus, and when they get confused or frustrated they'll recover more easily, knowing that there is something solid that they can grab on to. In time, your fans will begin to recognize what you are doing, and once you start winning they'll all say, "Damn, that's how basketball should be played!"

Exceptional post! My apologies for not discovering this earlier. Please post more often.
FYI the best part of the post was this part: "Sell your vision to the best players who will pay attention."