When Geno said it he was wrong

[Geew1992]

Why Dawn Staley's concerns with Final Four basketball officiating went beyond South Carolina's loss

On The Pivot podcast, South Carolina coach Dawn Staley broke down her concerns with officiating at the Women's Final Four and media coverage of it.

www.yahoo.com

 

[UConnCat]

Geno was criticized by Dawn when he complained about the officiating in the SC/UConn game but here she is complaining about the officiating in SC’s loss to Iowa in the FF. I think that is the point the OP is making.

 

[Kaizen]

Dawn should watch very carefully of Aliyah Boston's plays. No one in woman college basketball makes more physicals and fouls than Aliyah Boston.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

Sounds like Dawn psyched herself and her team out about the officiating before the final four game even started.

 

[oldude]

I just rewatched the UConn - SC game this morning. For the most part, it was the type of physical game you would expect when these two teams play, particularly in the paint.

What Geno was largely complaining about, as far as the refereeing was concerned, was that SC was basically allowed to cut off Lou’s movement throughout the game by hand checking, bodying and chicken winging her constantly, taking away her freedom of movement and, as a result, significantly limiting one of UConn’s top offensive players.

 

[Jmsdawg]

Dawn should watch very carefully of Aliyah Boston's plays. No one in woman college basketball makes more physicals and fouls than Aliyah Boston.

I watched and my take is no other player was fouled as much as Boston. I think that is true for most physical post CWBB players, when Big Tee was dominating post play she was fouled hard on many plays. The refs don’t call many of the obvious fouls on the bigs because they, the bigs, are so physical themselves. Different game all together in the WNBA and I believe that is why so many good CWBB post players can not even make the rosters in the WNBA. You have to be physical to make in the WNBA as a post player.

 

[cancontent]

I watched and my take is no other player was fouled as much as Boston. I think that is true for most physical post CWBB players, when Big Tee was dominating post play she was fouled hard on many plays. The refs don’t call many of the obvious fouls on the bigs because they, the bigs, are so physical themselves. Different game all together in the WNBA and I believe that is why so many good CWBB post players can not even make the rosters in the WNBA. You have to be physical to make in the WNBA as a post player.

1). I agree with your statement about bigs and fouling. This isn't new and it happens in rep, HS and AAU ball. I remember a tournament where parents were hollering that my daughter was too rough. At the same time, when their kids were literally hanging off of her when she tried to make a play, they complained that they needed some latitude because she was so tall.

Imagine their shock when they found out she was 2 year younger than their kids. She was just taller and more physically developed at that point. It's frustrating for sure.

2) You have to listen to the full interview to get the proper context of her comments. I watched it this morning while working out. Some of her points were valid, especially when it comes to the backlash towards the refs after the championship game.

There were a lot of missed calls during both semi-finals that weren't talked about as much. Unfortunately, these referees may never get a chance to ref games at this level again due to all the attention. Could they have done better? Definitely, but will they get a chance to prove themselves again, I doubt it and that's a shame.

 

[Geew1992]

1). I agree with your statement about bigs and fouling. This isn't new and it happens in rep, HS and AAU ball. I remember a tournament where parents were hollering that my daughter was too rough. At the same time, when their kids were literally hanging off of her when she tried to make a play, they complained that they needed some latitude because she was so tall.

Imagine their shock when they found out she was 2 year younger than their kids. She was just taller and more physically developed at that point. It's frustrating for sure.

2) You have to listen to the full interview to get the proper context of her comments. I watched it this morning while working out. Some of her points were valid, especially when it comes to the backlash towards the refs after the championship game.

There were a lot of missed calls during both semi-finals that weren't talked about as much. Unfortunately, these referees may never get a chance to ref games at this level again due to all the attention. Could they have done better? Definitely, but will they get a chance to prove themselves again, I doubt it and that's a shame.

I’m not sayin her points aren’t valid. I’m sayin when Geno said it after the SC/UConn game… she wasn’t too happy

 

[Cuango]

Iowa played better, scored more points, and Boston was finally held accountable for a couple of the myriad fouls she’s committed her whole career! I realize it was a devastating loss. Undefeated seasons don’t come along very often. So, yeah, understandable to be upset, but sometimes the other team is simply better on that particular day! Clearly, her team was the best in the country overall. They weren’t on that day, Clark was legendary, and a little humility is in order, Imo. Not a good look after going ballistic when other coaches did the same thing.

 

[cancontent]

I’m not sayin her points aren’t valid. I’m sayin when Geno said it after the SC/UConn game… she wasn’t too happy

I understand that, but the article doesn't do a good job at providing context. Plus, your response goes back to the "Geno vs Dawn" narrative that I think shouldn't be out there. Coaches make comments in defence of their teams and are entitled to their opinion. Both Geno and Dawn have a job to do to support their players. Did she take what Geno said after this specific game the wrong way? Maybe, maybe not because we can't read their minds.

At the same time, I do get where she's coming from because microaggressions are everywhere sadly. For example, when my daughter played on a predominantly white team, they faced a team that was all black. I was an AC then and learned afterwards from another parent that parents from our team were describing the opponents as "rough".

Our team beat them handily and our players were much more physical in comparison (we had nationally ranked multi-level athletes on our roster). When our HC found out, he was livid because he didn't think it was possible for parents on our team to think that way, especially after a big win. Some see it as being overly sensitive. I disagree.

These labels that are applied subconsciously do have impact. And it can also work in the reverse when people chirp about "privilege" when they don't have a clue what the actual situation is.

 

[hoopsnloops32]

I understand that, but the article doesn't do a good job at providing context. Plus, your response goes back to the "Geno vs Dawn" narrative that I think shouldn't be out there. Coaches make comments in defence of their teams and are entitled to their opinion. Both Geno and Dawn have a job to do to support their players. Did she take what Geno said after this specific game the wrong way? Maybe, maybe not because we can't read their minds.

At the same time, I do get where she's coming from because microaggressions are everywhere sadly. For example, when my daughter played on a predominantly white team, they faced a team that was all black. I was an AC then and learned afterwards from another parent that parents from our team were describing the opponents as "rough".

Our team beat them handily and our players were much more physical in comparison (we had nationally ranked multi-level athletes on our roster). When our HC found out, he was livid because he didn't think it was possible for parents on our team to think that way, especially after a big win. Some see it as being overly sensitive. I disagree.

These labels that are applied subconsciously do have impact. And it can also work in the reverse when people chirp about "privilege" when they don't have a clue what the actual situation is.

Yea but Geno didn't say anything about the South Carolina players or how they play. He said officials let players grab Lou and interfere with her freedom of movement, and it said the same thing after the previous game against Providence, a predominately white team.

I think based on her other comments, Dawn was aware that her team received a beneficial whistle all season and didn't think they'd react well if they got the same treatment every other team gets from officials from time to time.

 

[Alydar]

1). I agree with your statement about bigs and fouling. This isn't new and it happens in rep, HS and AAU ball. I remember a tournament where parents were hollering that my daughter was too rough. At the same time, when their kids were literally hanging off of her when she tried to make a play, they complained that they needed some latitude because she was so tall.

Imagine their shock when they found out she was 2 year younger than their kids. She was just taller and more physically developed at that point. It's frustrating for sure.

2) You have to listen to the full interview to get the proper context of her comments. I watched it this morning while working out. Some of her points were valid, especially when it comes to the backlash towards the refs after the championship game.

There were a lot of missed calls during both semi-finals that weren't talked about as much. Unfortunately, these referees may never get a chance to ref games at this level again due to all the attention. Could they have done better? Definitely, but will they get a chance to prove themselves again, I doubt it and that's a shame.

The NCAA official who decided that making a political statement was more important than putting the best officials on the court is the person who needs to be terminated. Notice how no one asked who that was, nor was it offered.

 

[EdSaid]

Short memories. If you say something everyone (Except BY'ers) forgets about it in a week. Its part of the nice-nice thing. I say something nice about your program and you say something nice about my program. Behind the scenes they despise each other.

2 Points about officiating:

The women's championship game's officiating was abysmal at best. Without me being sexist, the NCAA will choose an all female group of officials for the final game. They do it women's soccer, lacrosse, softball etc. They have done it the past few years and they will continue to do it. Are they the best three officials out of the pool of officials? Not my question to answer, but the kids playing in that game deserve the best officials available, be it male, female, Martian, or giraffe. Get the best officials available.

Geno wants the officiating to improve. That is never, ever going to happen in Div I women's basketball. Every amateur/college basketball official wants to make it to D1 Men's. That's the pinnacle for basketball officiating. It doesn't happen for many officials. More officials move up the ladder through the Men's JuCo/D 3, D2 route than go to D1 women to D1 men. Some officials get to D2 or D3 men and stay there. I've been involved with three conferences and they all choose basketball officials the same way. Each conference game's officials are evaluated by each coaching staff. Prior to basketball season Conf Commish and supervisor of bball officials will form their team of officials. Sometimes they have a tryout with a scrimmage for any officials in question. If your assigned to the women's group you are locked in for that upcoming season, same for the men. A women's official will never jump up and do a men's game during the season. In a pinch, the men's conference might bump up a D2 men's official for one game, maybe someone they've been watching.

 

[cancontent]

The NCAA official who decided that making a political statement was more important than putting the best officials on the court is the person who needs to be terminated. Notice how no one asked who that was, nor was it offered.

Sorry, but how do we know they weren't qualified and this was for political reasons? I haven't seen anything that indicated that this was the case.

The selection of referees for championship events is a problem in various sports. We're seeing issues with officiating in the NBA, NFL, MLB so it's not exclusively the NCAAW.

Lastly, I kind of chafe at the tone of the response as it doesn't help matters.
There's a dearth of qualified referees as it is. Finding ways to improve the situation is critical in ensuring these types of issues don't happen in the future.

A good friend of mine here in Canada is trying to develop a program which encourages former elite female players to consider refereeing as a career once they're done playing. They would already have an advantage because of their playing experience and would have a good base of knowledge to work with. However, if they feel that they'll never be considered qualified/respected because they're seen as a political statement for being female/BIPOC, they won't bother and the sport will suffer for it.

 

[BBallF]

In 2015 the NCAA decided to stress freedom of movement in a Rule change, paid lip service and actual service to it for a short while , and then let it die a slow and unremarkable death. You are not watching basketball anymore, you are watching a sport that has been turned into something else because the NCAA is weak, short sighted, powerless, and yes more interested in appearances than actions.

 

[YKCornelius]

Short memories. If you say something everyone (Except BY'ers) forgets about it in a week. Its part of the nice-nice thing. I say something nice about your program and you say something nice about my program. Behind the scenes they despise each other.

2 Points about officiating:

The women's championship game's officiating was abysmal at best. Without me being sexist, the NCAA will choose an all female group of officials for the final game. They do it women's soccer, lacrosse, softball etc. They have done it the past few years and they will continue to do it. Are they the best three officials out of the pool of officials? Not my question to answer, but the kids playing in that game deserve the best officials available, be it male, female, Martian, or giraffe. Get the best officials available.

Geno wants the officiating to improve. That is never, ever going to happen in Div I women's basketball. Every amateur/college basketball official wants to make it to D1 Men's. That's the pinnacle for basketball officiating. It doesn't happen for many officials. More officials move up the ladder through the Men's JuCo/D 3, D2 route than go to D1 women to D1 men. Some officials get to D2 or D3 men and stay there. I've been involved with three conferences and they all choose basketball officials the same way. Each conference game's officials are evaluated by each coaching staff. Prior to basketball season Conf Commish and supervisor of bball officials will form their team of officials. Sometimes they have a tryout with a scrimmage for any officials in question. If your assigned to the women's group you are locked in for that upcoming season, same for the men. A women's official will never jump up and do a men's game during the season. In a pinch, the men's conference might bump up a D2 men's official for one game, maybe someone they've been watching.

Ed, what three conferences are you referring to? What you describe is NOT the way officials are chosen to work WCBB games in the AAC, the Big East, ACC or SEC.

Furthermore, what do you mean that "if you are assigned to the women's group you are locked in for that upcoming season"? What group is a referee locked into? Certainly not a specific conference as evidenced by the games reffed this season. Please clarify.

I think clarification is also warranted for your assertion that the NCAA will choose an all female group of officials for the final game. "They have done it the past few years and will continue to do it." If your point is that all female crews have happened in the past and, therefore, one can reasonably expect instances of all female crews in future championships, I agree. However, if you contend that an all female crew is an NCAA objective (other than this year) the historical facts say otherwise: Michael McConnell was on the floor for the SC - UConn final last year (2022), and Joe Vaszily worked the championship in 2018. And this doesn't even take into account the fourth (substitute) official who attends the Final Four games in the event one of the other three officials are incapacitated.

 

[90BSEE]

I love it when people want social justice but then are offended when someone says something is done for social justice.

The solutions are simple. In the NCAA tournament, add a fourth official on the floor. The ones available are not good enough to keep up with the ever increasing speed of the game with just three of them. Or, hire Men's D1 or NBA refs to do the tournament. An insult? Sure. But we all know the refs in the women's game are bad.

 

[GoUconn7961]

I can't believe we're still talking about this over a month later.

 

[UConnCat]

I understand that, but the article doesn't do a good job at providing context. Plus, your response goes back to the "Geno vs Dawn" narrative that I think shouldn't be out there. Coaches make comments in defence of their teams and are entitled to their opinion. Both Geno and Dawn have a job to do to support their players. Did she take what Geno said after this specific game the wrong way? Maybe, maybe not because we can't read their minds.

There is no Geno v Dawn narrative and nothing is being put "out there." As you say, both coaches made comments in defense of their players while criticizing the physical play allowed by the officials. The context for Geno's comments was that he'd been complaining about the physical play before the SC game and after the SC game and only once were his comments misinterpreted. The context was there and there was no need to engage in mind reading. That's why Geno had such a strong reaction to Dawn's comments. He provided the context which was not new to those of us here.

 

[HopJim]

Intelligent comments by posters. Rarely to you hear a Hall of Fame coach complain about physical play or the support/lack of support for these tactics. Geno and most just comment about the need to adjust, not that one style if right of wrong.
I do support the thought that officials appear to ignore more and more the holding, grabbing and bumping away from the ball. Clear fouls should be called on both sides and makes the game harder to watch.

 

[meyers7]

Short memories. If you say something everyone (Except BY'ers) forgets about it in a week. Its part of the nice-nice thing. I say something nice about your program and you say something nice about my program. Behind the scenes they despise each other.

2 Points about officiating:

The women's championship game's officiating was abysmal at best. Without me being sexist, the NCAA will choose an all female group of officials for the final game. They do it women's soccer, lacrosse, softball etc. They have done it the past few years and they will continue to do it. Are they the best three officials out of the pool of officials? Not my question to answer, but the kids playing in that game deserve the best officials available, be it male, female, Martian, or giraffe. Get the best officials available.

If you think about it a giraffe would have pretty good view with the higher angle.

 

[meyers7]

Sorry, but how do we know they weren't qualified and this was for political reasons? I haven't seen anything that indicated that this was the case.

The game was pretty much evidence of it. Who officiated it and how it was officiated.

 

[Rowdy831]

In my opinion the officials changed the outcome of two games by allowing the defense to flop. The first one was UCONN vs Indiana and the second was SC vs Iowa. Both of the teams that won played outstanding games and earned a tough win but in those games the officials took out the two toughest matchups on weak fouls.

Many people have said that the post players get fouled more and are called for fouls less. I think that is accurate but when the officials call a couple of weak fouls on those players they are out of the game before they have a chance to adjust to the game. Boston and Edwards are among the most difficult players to defend and also control the inside game for their teams. When they are out their teams aren't the same and I thought it was a shame.

 

[Jaml]

In my opinion the officials changed the outcome of two games by allowing the defense to flop. The first one was UCONN vs Indiana and the second was SC vs Iowa. Both of the teams that won played outstanding games and earned a tough win but in those games the officials took out the two toughest matchups on weak fouls.

Many people have said that the post players get fouled more and are called for fouls less. I think that is accurate but when the officials call a couple of weak fouls on those players they are out of the game before they have a chance to adjust to the game. Boston and Edwards are among the most difficult players to defend and also control the inside game for their teams. When they are out their teams aren't the same and I thought it was a shame.

I am guessing you mean UConn vs Ohio State. UConn played Indiana in the previous year's tournament.

 

[hard2please]

stop crying and go hang a banner