Vitale this morning

[huskyblooz]

on Cowherd's show, names his Super 6 college coaches of all-time:
1. Wooden
2. Knight
3. K
4. Dean Smith
5. Calhoun
6. Pitino

 

[8893]

Tough to argue with that list.

 

[UConn990411]

Knight over Coach K is kind of ridiculous.

I think there's a good argument to be made for Calhoun being ranked ahead of Dean Smith - he won more titles at a more difficult place to coach without getting nearly the same level of talent.

Not a bad list by Vitale, though. I'm (pleasantly) surprised that Rupp didn't make his top six.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'd have Calhoun ahead of Smith. He has fewer Final Fours (to be fair, by a lot), one more title, and UNC had a couple of Final Fours and a title before Smith showed up, as opposed to nothing on a national scale when Calhoun showed up.

 

[Husky25]

The first five are all HoFers with multiple recent National Championships. He only makes the list 6 names long to include the current national champion. If Michigan won, Beilien would be an under the radar sleeper.

Where's Boehiem? Where's Rupp? Where's Iba?

 

[tzznandrew]

Knight over Coach K is kind of ridiculous.

I think there's a good argument to be made for Calhoun being ranked ahead of Dean Smith - he won more titles at a more difficult place to coach without getting nearly the same level of talent.

Not a bad list by Vitale, though. I'm (pleasantly) surprised that Rupp didn't make his top six.

K has one more title, 6 more Final Fours...so yeah, I'm trying to figure out the logic.

Maybe it's that he felt Knight took lesser players further than K did...like, it comes down just to his opinion of coaching rather than accomplishments?

If you take that logic, though, I'd say Knight and Calhoun should be 1-2 in some order.

Whatever, though. I think those six, in some order, are the best, and I, too, am glad Rupp isn't on it.

 

[superjohn]

It's a good list but I would move K to #2 and switch Calhoun and Dean Smith.

 

[TRest]

He works with Knight at Espn, so there is a little reach around.

 

[Inyatkin]

Vitale is in love with Knight to an extent that dwarfs even his K fixation.

But seriously, no Kevin Ollie? Come on.

 

[tzznandrew]

Vitale is in love with Knight to an extent that dwarfs even his K fixation.

But seriously, no Kevin Ollie? Come on.

An interesting question:

In a world we're all hoping for, in which KO is a great coach, just how great would Ollie have to be, ever, to move ahead of Calhoun all time? Passing him in Final Fours and matching him in titles might not be enough, right?, because KO couldn't have done that without JC. But 4 titles is pretty much unheard of (this side of Wooden/Rupp/K).

Thoughts?

 

[msgordon]

The first five are all HoFers with multiple recent National Championships.

under your definition of 'recent'(?), pitino certainly fits this criteria

 

[Husky25]

under your definition of 'recent'(?), pitino certainly fits this criteria

But the original criteria is:

...his Super 6 college coaches of all-time:

 

[8893]

I agree that the order is debatable as to K/Knight and JC/Smith, but the list itself is a pretty good one imo.

When my buddies and I discuss it, everyone agrees that Wooden is number one. We all wanted JC to get one more NC to have him in the conversation for next greatest after Wooden, but I think K and Knight deserve that, and JC is next imo.

 

[B1GEast]

IDK, it seems that recently coach K can only win if he has a very talented team, if his team is average, they go nowhere, just my opinion, calhoun and knight willed their teams to victory, not many guys can do that.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

Knight over Coach K is kind of ridiculous.

I think there's a good argument to be made for Calhoun being ranked ahead of Dean Smith - he won more titles at a more difficult place to coach without getting nearly the same level of talent.

Not a bad list by Vitale, though. I'm (pleasantly) surprised that Rupp didn't make his top six.

Agree on all counts. Tough to argue with it; it is a good list. But Calhoun should be ahead of Smith. Dean won more games and made way more final fours, but it could also be argued he underachieved considering how many good players he had and how good they were for so long, he "only" has two titles.

Best part of this list? NO BOEHEIM. not that it should surprise anyone.

 

[Inyatkin]

An interesting question:

In a world we're all hoping for, in which KO is a great coach, just how great would Ollie have to be, ever, to move ahead of Calhoun all time? Passing him in Final Fours and matching him in titles might not be enough, right?, because KO couldn't have done that without JC. But 4 titles is pretty much unheard of (this side of Wooden/Rupp/K).

Thoughts?

Well, if you're talking about moving ahead of one of the five greatest college coaches ever, out of thousands of people who have coached at this level, then yes, he'd have to do something ridiculous like win four titles. Or maybe duplicate Calhoun's record but without the down years, the 97s and 07s, etc.

There's just no accounting for what Calhoun did and where he did it. Even among UConn fans I think that gets lost. He won three national titles from Storrs.

 

[Husky25]

IDK, it seems that recently coach K can only win if he has a very talented team, if his team is average, they go nowhere, just my opinion, calhoun and knight willed their teams to victory, not many guys can do that.

The '99 team only lost twice and was No. 1 for a half season. It was only because most national pundits outside CT thought that Duke was 2008-09 UNC good (i.e. the rankings after that Hansborough team should have started at 6 and UNC should have been ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). UConn was absolutely among the preseason teams mentioned to win the NC. Same for 2004. Okefor was the most dominant defender sice Marcus Camby/Tim Duncan.

The only team you can reasonably say was not ver talented was the 2011 team. Walker (and later Lamb and Napier) literally willed that team to win the National title.

 

[Husky25]

Well, if you're talking about moving ahead of one of the five greatest college coaches ever, out of thousands of people who have coached at this level, then yes, he'd have to do something ridiculous like win four titles. Or maybe duplicate Calhoun's record but without the down years, the 97s and 07s, etc.

There's just no accounting for what Calhoun did and where he did it. Even among UConn fans I think that gets lost. He won three national titles from Storrs.

'97 was not a down year as much as a reloading year. They lost an obscene amount of material (Allen, Sheppard, Knight, Big E, and Rudy the Snake) and had to replace all of them with freshman. Plus King and Moore were suspended mid-year as well.

 

[B1GEast]

The '99 team only lost twice and was No. 1 for a half season. It was only because most national pundits outside CT thought that Duke was 2008-09 UNC good (i.e. the rankings after that Hansborough team should have started at 6 and UNC should have been ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). UConn was absolutely among the preseason teams mentioned to win the NC. Same for 2004. Okefor was the most dominant defender sice Marcus Camby/Tim Duncan.

The only team you can reasonably say was not ver talented was the 2011 team. Walker (and later Lamb and Napier) literally willed that team to win the National title.

I never referred any uconn team as not talented, I simply stated that coach k needs talent to win and that calhoun and knight willed their teams to win, really not sure what you are referring to.

 

[Husky25]

I never referred any uconn team as not talented, I simply stated that coach k needs talent to win and that calhoun and knight willed their teams to win, really not sure what you are referring to.

Not for nothing but this indcates to me that you think Calhoun's teams were less talented. A notion with which I will only agree regarding the 2010-2011 team.

Incidently, Knight's championship teams include one that went undefeated.

One thing I will agree with is that Duke seems to get a disproportionate amount of McD's AAs, but that tag is just as subjective as any other recruiting star ranking system. I personally don't really put much stock in it.

 

[Inyatkin]

'97 was not a down year as much as a reloading year. They lost an obscene amount of material (Allen, Sheppard, Knight, Big E, and Rudy the Snake) and had to replace all of them with freshman. Plus King and Moore were suspended mid-year as well.

I remember 97 well, and everything you say is true. Regardless, we barely made the NIT. It was a down year.

I'm not trying to knock Calhoun, but in terms of his competition, the very best coaches, his down years were really down.

 

[Husky25]

I remember 97 well, and everything you say is true. Regardless, we barely made the NIT. It was a down year.

I'm not trying to knock Calhoun, but in terms of his competition, the very best coaches, his down years were really down.

I think that is what made Calhoun such a special coach and, perhaps this is what BEConf was trying to get at. Calhoun took those 3 Freshman, Moore, Rash, and King (for a half season), added two more pieces and gave us that magical 1999 Journey (Though El Amin was a McDAA IIRC). Coach K seems to need a starting 5 of McD AAs.

 

[8893]

All I know is that I was so sure we were going to the FF in '99 that I entered the ticket lottery following the '98 FF. I got two tickets and had my airfare to Tampa/St. Pete booked by Thanksgiving.

People seem to forget that before '99, Calhoun was often knocked about his inability to get to a FF despite having some pretty great talent/teams before then (e.g., Donyell, Ray). And he spent most of his time trying to convince us all that NCs were not that important, because it's a crapshoot once you get into the NCAAs.

 

[tzznandrew]

The '99 team only lost twice and was No. 1 for a half season. It was only because most national pundits outside CT thought that Duke was 2008-09 UNC good (i.e. the rankings after that Hansborough team should have started at 6 and UNC should have been ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5). UConn was absolutely among the preseason teams mentioned to win the NC. Same for 2004. Okefor was the most dominant defender sice Marcus Camby/Tim Duncan.

The only team you can reasonably say was not ver talented was the 2011 team. Walker (and later Lamb and Napier) literally willed that team to win the National title.

If UConn had Dyson, we could have beaten them. Had we played them (i.e. had Kemba not played a terrible game in the FF) we might have beaten them.

Hansborough was very good, but Hasheem was exactly the type of player who would give him trouble--and Danny Green was the only player on that team who played defense. Maybe he shut down Stanley, but they would have struggled with AJ, Kemba, and Adrien.

It would have been a good game. With Dyson? We have a real shot. Without him? Yeah, we probably lose. But it would have been a better matchup than UNC-MSU.

 

[B1GEast]

Not for nothing but this indcates to me that you think Calhoun's teams were less talented. A notion with which I will only agree regarding the 2010-2011 team.
.

That's the issue, you are making assumptions as to what I think, it's not as much about talent as it is about coaching, no worries.