UT Player Development

[VolFan]

I know several on this board like to go after the player development at Tennessee, but Izzy Harrison's massive improvement is undeniable. I'm not sure how the numbers directly compare but I'd take her over Elizabeth Williams any day. I thought it was kind of odd when ESPN had her listed in the top 5 centers in the country preseason, but they knew what they were doing. 14 pts, 9 boards in just 20 minutes a game. 57% from field, 76% from FT line. 6 straight double doubles. 26-15, 26-10, 18-10 in the last three games.

 

[doggydaddy]

UT player development motto - "even a blind squirrel finds an acorn on occasion".

 

[DaddyChoc]

I know several on this board like to go after the player development at Tennessee, but Izzy Harrison's massive improvement is undeniable. I'm not sure how the numbers directly compare but I'd take her over Elizabeth Williams any day. I thought it was kind of odd when ESPN had her listed in the top 5 centers in the country preseason, but they knew what they were doing. 14 pts, 9 boards in just 20 minutes a game. 57% from field, 76% from FT line. 6 straight double doubles. 26-15, 26-10, 18-10 in the last three games.

its just that you'd expect atleast your whole starting 5 to get better... but when you have certain parts not fitting you'll never have a complete puzzle

 

[Bayareahusky]

VolFan - I agree with you..... she has been a beast inside for you guys..... Although I have not kept an eagle eye on her growth..... I have noticed that she has stepped up her game..... For a spell this year, I thought the same of Massengale....

As one who does indeed "go after" player dvlpmnt at UT, I must say that I do not revel in this practice.... . VolFan, I honestly am amazed at gameday performances..... the comment from HW about focusing too much on D to the detriment of the O...... the absence of effort for long stretches.... I just don't know the reason for it..... for instance..... what happened in last yr's tournament with LVille..... I thought UL was ripe for the picking..... another puzzle..... after 4 yrs there I don't see the positive affect M Simmons has on the team..... I really have an absence of understanding as to why the LVs do not "bring it" as they should on a consistant basis..... I can only surmise that it comes down to coaching..... nothing against anyone, though.... the old adage.... "criticize the performance, not the performer"....

I wish you good luck this year andhope you get to Nashville..... I enjoy reading your posts here......

 

[VolFan]

Massengale is also back in stride. Points and assists double double last game. 28 points today.

 

[VolFan]

I think the lack of focus, not bringing it for a full 40, etc. is the result of a poison in our program that may take done time to rid. That is, none of these girls have been at UT when we have consistently beat the Top 10 an dominated the Top 25. They just don't know how to dominate like the teams of old. Usually they would have the older players to lean on to spark the game deciding runs that would win those games handily. However, starting with the Stricklen/Johnson class, that changed. Now this new era of players in some ways is still young in terms of finding their way. A coach can do anything and everything for those players but get out on the court and play with them. Playing the game is up to the players. This team needs simply to learn, mentally, how to put the petal to the medal and pour on the gas. I think
With this mature group of kids, that will happen by the end of the season. Also, Holly is still maturing as a head coach. I see this team turning a corner though. The first step is finally getting a true top 5 win. Notre Dame better be it or we may be waiting awhile, I fear.

 

[VolFan]

May take some* time

 

[Boxerpups4me]

I'm really concerned about Burdick. She has seemed to regressed big time from last year. Wasn't she supposed to be the second coming of Maya out of high school? She doesn't seem to be very aggressive offensively either. She rebounds really good though, but I really wish she would come out of whatever funk she is in.

 

[Bestiarius]

I know several on this board like to go after the player development at Tennessee, but Izzy Harrison's massive improvement is undeniable. I'm not sure how the numbers directly compare but I'd take her over Elizabeth Williams any day. I thought it was kind of odd when ESPN had her listed in the top 5 centers in the country preseason, but they knew what they were doing. 14 pts, 9 boards in just 20 minutes a game. 57% from field, 76% from FT line. 6 straight double doubles. 26-15, 26-10, 18-10 in the last three games.

Izzy is a good player. Her shooting and rebounding are good, but her Assists and TO's - not so good. She didn't play much as a Frosh, and wasn't she out for knee surgery for quite a few games? I wonder if she was always a good player and her improvement is a result of recovering from her knee problem, and not of coaching?

 

[Bayareahusky]

VolFan - If I was an avid LV fan, I would gladly trade a Top 5 victory for consistency throughout the year.... I always see hot and cold..... and would love to count on consistant play ....especially from the veterans.....

Like that game you played i think last year vs. Kentucky in KVille.... from the first minutes of the game .... UK did not stand a chance....... UT wasplaying with emotion precision, and was dominant in every phase of game from my recollection

And your referral to the veteran players..... I would have loved to see (for your sake) players to follow Stricklen..... she was one with ability to lead by example and take charge..... a lot of talent there.....too bad not more for her in 4 yrs.... she deservedmore

 

[Tonyc]

I too have nailed Tenn for not developing players and they for the most part haven't. Every once in a while somebody get better but as a team the LVs don't. They continue to struggle and make the same mistakes. You cant keep putting bandaids on the mistakes. Its like a tire. You get a hole in it and patch it up ,then another hole someplace else and patch it up and then another hole and patch it up. Eventually you need a new tire.

Part of the many problems at Tenn was no point guard. It took years of trying to make somebody a point guard until Pat finally recruited one. Massengale is beginning to look like shes turning the corner. Izzy too. What about everybody else? What about continuing to make a lot of turnovers. I think the LVs have their sights set to high. Some of the posts I've read like Russell will turn the program around and when Massengale game we finally have a great point guard and if we get Wilson we can win a NC. That's the wrong thinking. Its not about certain players its about the team. Tenn has always had the talent they just don't play as a team. Remember the Wizard of OZ. If I only had a heart, if I only had a brain, if I only had courage. What we found out in the movie is that had it they just didn't realize it. Well that's Tenn. They have the talent they just cant put it together. This has been going on for quite a few years. All this talk about I wish Pat was back. Pat was great in her era. Her idea was to get all the top players, and rebound rebound rebound. It worked and she could out talent her opponets. Today there are a lot of great players and parity in the game so that doesn't hold true anymore. The game has changed and Pat is retired. Move forward stop living in the past .

If Tenn stopped worrying about winning NCs and getting to because their fans want it and made a total commitment to start over and take a few steps back and rebuild they might be ok. That means discipline and working the kids and if they don't do what their coach wants them to do then sit them. I believe Tenn is afraid to sit star players for making mistakes because they are to worried about losing and to worried about pleasing their fans. You have to get worse before you can get better therefore every time you want to get better, you have to be willing to change. When your constantly making the same mistakes you have to learn what to do to correct it and then work it to death til it becomes reflexive and automatic. If you don't you will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. For Example

All the complaints and nit picking about the loss to LSU and blaming the refs and wanting to get rid of Holly. Tenn made 20 turnovers and they did it again the other night. So what was the problem that they made 20 turnovers. Bad decisions, poor passes whatever. Fix it in practice. Drill and drill and drill the kids til they get it and if they do it in a game pull them and sit them. Until Tenn decides to make the necessary changes to get better, they will never get better.

 

[UcMiami]

VolFan - I do agree that having veteran leadership to teach the 'way' to the younger players is very important. I think for example you can trace Rutgers troubles back to the year when their leader jumped to Europe rather than playing her senior year and the incoming freshman just seemed lost (big highly ranked class with a few that transferred out after that first year.) And part of that can also be traced to the mess with Pat's diagnosis and the three headed assistant disaster which had to effect the consistency of purpose. And I do think you can point to a few shining examples of player development, but I would also say it hasn't been consistent - a few players improving and a few regressing each year. Ariel does seem to be playing better this year, a more team oriented approach that is new to her and Harrison does seem to be putting it together after her medical struggles. But it also appears that Graves is being a little frozen out and I think that is unfortunate, and another issue with TN. The lack of a really well balanced approach on offense. Too much of the post involvement is based on offensive rebounding and not on including them in the flow of the offensive sets.

 

[HGN]

VolFan , I agree with most of the previous posters here. I have been paying some attention to the LV's as well lately. They are coming along. Guard play with Simmons and Massengale is showing life. In the frontcourt Izzy especially has been playing well. The problem is that it has taken her so long to get to this point. Now that she is playing well , the much needed consistent help of Burdick and Graves have disappeared. What's with that ? Also , Russell seems to be slow to contribute early on as well. All need to develop quickly this year to get to the FF and I think they will. But timely development is whats needed here.

 

[msf22b]

VolFan , I agree with most of the previous posters here. I have been paying some attention to the LV's as well lately. They are coming along. Guard play with Simmons and Massengale is showing life. In the frontcourt Izzy especially has been playing well. The problem is that it has taken her so long to get to this point. Now that she is playing well , the much needed consistent help of Burdick and Graves have disappeared. What's with that ? Also , Russell seems to be slow to contribute early on as well. All need to develop quickly this year to get to the FF and I think they will. But timely development is whats needed here.

HGN is spot on.
The team is coming along, improving in fits and spurts

Interestingly it is individual offense that looks better, the D (which is supposed to be the point of emphasis) is incoherent as I noted in a post about the LSU game.

Likely offensive skills are more intuitive and can improve subject to increased effort.

But team ball on both ends of the court is still in short supply and will be ruthlessly exposed by a more disciplined ND squad (with probably equal or lesser talent).

I find myself not completely in agreement with Tony C. There is no contradiction between yearning for national fame and improving fundamentals. And I have a certain optimism for the future of coaching. And the rapid improvement thereof.

I expect it to come from the most cerebral and fundamentally solid WNBA ranks…Sue? Swin? Svetta? And a host more, and not only UConn Alums.

 

[UConnCat]

I'm really concerned about Burdick. She has seemed to regressed big time from last year. Wasn't she supposed to be the second coming of Maya out of high school? She doesn't seem to be very aggressive offensively either. She rebounds really good though, but I really wish she would come out of whatever funk she is in.

I don't recall anyone ever saying Burdick was the second coming of Maya Moore. If so, I would bet they were the same people who said Angie B was better than Maya coming out of high school. I was told Burdick was more like the second coming of April Sykes, i.e., a highly-ranked player with some skill who would struggle with the speed of the college game. That analogy has proven to be accurate, though Sykes had a better 3-point shot. Burdick should be contributing more but she seems to have lost confidence.

 

[BooRadley]

I too have nailed Tenn for not developing players and they for the most part haven't. Every once in a while somebody get better but as a team the LVs don't. They continue to struggle and make the same mistakes. You cant keep putting bandaids on the mistakes. Its like a tire. You get a hole in it and patch it up ,then another hole someplace else and patch it up and then another hole and patch it up. Eventually you need a new tire.

Part of the many problems at Tenn was no point guard. It took years of trying to make somebody a point guard until Pat finally recruited one. Massengale is beginning to look like shes turning the corner. Izzy too. What about everybody else? What about continuing to make a lot of turnovers. I think the LVs have their sights set to high. Some of the posts I've read like Russell will turn the program around and when Massengale game we finally have a great point guard and if we get Wilson we can win a NC. That's the wrong thinking. Its not about certain players its about the team. Tenn has always had the talent they just don't play as a team. Remember the Wizard of OZ. If I only had a heart, if I only had a brain, if I only had courage. What we found out in the movie is that had it they just didn't realize it. Well that's Tenn. They have the talent they just cant put it together. This has been going on for quite a few years. All this talk about I wish Pat was back. Pat was great in her era. Her idea was to get all the top players, and rebound rebound rebound. It worked and she could out talent her opponets. Today there are a lot of great players and parity in the game so that doesn't hold true anymore. The game has changed and Pat is retired. Move forward stop living in the past .

If Tenn stopped worrying about winning NCs and getting to because their fans want it and made a total commitment to start over and take a few steps back and rebuild they might be ok. That means discipline and working the kids and if they don't do what their coach wants them to do then sit them. I believe Tenn is afraid to sit star players for making mistakes because they are to worried about losing and to worried about pleasing their fans. You have to get worse before you can get better therefore every time you want to get better, you have to be willing to change. When your constantly making the same mistakes you have to learn what to do to correct it and then work it to death til it becomes reflexive and automatic. If you don't you will continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. For Example

All the complaints and nit picking about the loss to LSU and blaming the refs and wanting to get rid of Holly. Tenn made 20 turnovers and they did it again the other night. So what was the problem that they made 20 turnovers. Bad decisions, poor passes whatever. Fix it in practice. Drill and drill and drill the kids til they get it and if they do it in a game pull them and sit them. Until Tenn decides to make the necessary changes to get better, they will never get better.

Excellent post, Tony.

I agree with you about UTenn's need to reset it's goals and very much agree with your point that resetting the larger goals to ones that offer accomplish-able goals is a matter of discipline that must be found within the coaching staff. Making this change means fully supporting a new player/team development strategy with a set of supportive tactics. Watching UTenn's games makes clear that they need something more than just a piece of the puzzle that can be filled in by recruitment, they need to revamp their whole approach to the game unless, of course, they are content to be just one of those dangerous hurdles that other teams must overcome to reach excellence.

The player issue is a non-starter for me in this case as they do have the players... they've nearly always had the players... the PG issue you mentioned is a perfect example of how a coaches approach to recruiting affects the level of independence a team can be allowed to have on the floor. In another thread, some noted that the Memphis coach, Harry and others are on their feet for 40 minutes micro-managing their team. If UTenn wants to bask in future glory as well as in past glory they need an approach that will lead them to an intelligent team that can think and react swiftly-decisively in a principled way to the dynamics of game situations. The truly great teams have been allowed to learn how to figure out each game for themselves. When a player has to step up to turn the tide what we are actually seeing is a failure to coalesce as an intelligent team. Given that we are all human and that we all come with human frailties, these moments of breakdown are inevitable... so it's not that they happen that's the issue, it's the frequency with which they occur that matters and how we react to them when they do occur... does the team give way to it's star or does it find it's way to it's trust in teammate & fundamentals of team play.

Keeping in mind that the hallmark of the great ones is that they met the requirements and needs of the times they lived in. PHS's coaching style reflected the times she was in; fewer truly elite players and a much more primitive game. By today's standards of excellence, the "recruit a star and pound the boards" approach is downright neolithic. We saw in the Dunn & Lobo thread, one of the questions of today concerns the gap between the few top teams(teams coached by Geno) and the rest of the pack. The "is it good for the game" question isn't really an issue of Geno/Uconn... it's an issue for those programs that are not competitive with UConn. UTenn and PHS are just the most prominent example of failing to adjust to higher standards of play.

As most of you will remember, some years back OC suggested that the game may have been passing PHS by... This notion set our orange friend's hair ablaze... and then came CP and the fire was more smoke than flame. The question became:: was this CP revitalized UTenn team truly a better team and a validation of PHS's approach to coaching or was this just the late gasps of a dying approach to the game... some thought OC pronounced too soon... others, like myself, believed that the coaching game had changed so significantly(as led by Geno) that the CP led UTenn teams were indeed a bit of late heroics that were soon to be unrepeatable. In those days of yore, the PHS/UTenn approach led to #1 rankings and NC's... these days it leads to a top 10 ranking and elite 8 showings... in the next decade that approach will lead to top 25 rankings and it's not hard to envision where that trend leaves a team. Will there be exceptions to the rule? Of course... a game changing player like BG can come along and win a program a dazzling one NC... So UTenn has a choice to make... they can stick with what used to work and hope for the next BG to pick them... or.... they can join us in this century.

Enjoyed the OZ reference and especially loved the paragraphs.


Your Ol' Pal Boo

 

[msf22b]

[quote="BooRadley, post: 808128, member: 247"


Your Ol' Pal Boo[/quote]


Post of the Young Year!

Thank you Boo

 

[huskeynut]

Boo - you hit the nail on the head!

 

[Phil]

I know several on this board like to go after the player development at Tennessee, but Izzy Harrison's massive improvement is undeniable. I'm not sure how the numbers directly compare but I'd take her over Elizabeth Williams any day. I thought it was kind of odd when ESPN had her listed in the top 5 centers in the country preseason, but they knew what they were doing. 14 pts, 9 boards in just 20 minutes a game. 57% from field, 76% from FT line. 6 straight double doubles. 26-15, 26-10, 18-10 in the last three games.

I think Izzy is playing well, she and Graves (when 100%) seem like the top players.

 

[Waquoit]

I know several on this board like to go after the player development at Tennessee, but Izzy Harrison's massive improvement is undeniable.

To paraphrase Chris Rock, "You're supposed to develop your players! Whaddya want? A cookie?"

 

[DobbsRover2]

The GA game on the road shows the recipe for UTenn. Get into the paint and pile up the shooting fouls, which has worked for many teams in the past though it tends to break down well short of the FF when the calls don't come. 30-33 on FTs was a super job for UTenn.

Not so good was only 9 assists vs. 20 TOs, and that the starting guards had a total of 2 assists and 6 TOs. But as far as development goes for the Vols, they are getting the rebounds big time and getting fairly high precentage shots, but can they rely on this system against the more hard-nosed teams in the SEC and in the NCAA tourney. The guards will make or break UTenn's chances, and though many of Massengale's numbers look pretty nice, the fact that both she and Simmons are shooting 40% is an issue.

 

[stwainfan]

Kara Lawson made a tweet about Harrison. Isabelle Harrison one of the nation most improved players, in only 20.1 mpg, leads team in pts/rebs.

 

[easttexastrash]

I am not permitted to say good things about the LVs...you are on your own.

 

[pap49cba]

The Lady Vols' favorite album....

 

[DobbsRover2]

I am not permitted to say good things about the LVs...you are on your own.

Ditto with Baylor. I do recall you might have mentioned once or twice in the past that you thought the Bears had some talent.