OT: UNC - still dragging on

[CTrefugee]

BY C JACKSON COWART

jcowart@charlotteobserver.com

Former North Carolina men’s basketball star Rashad McCants says he has no relationship with UNC or coach Roy Williams - and that isn’t likely to change anytime soon.

In 2014, McCants alleged that the university kept him eligible through fake classes and minimal attendance, and he said his former coach was complicit with the scheme. Williams has denied any knowledge of wrongdoing, but McCants has stuck to his claims.

“The things he’s done and said and denied, I just can’t respect,” said McCants, who played for Williams for two seasons. “As a coach, he’s a great coach, and he’s deserving of the Hall of Fame and everything that’s coming to him. But as a man, I don’t have anything to say.”

Through a spokesman, Williams declined comment.

 

[Dillon77]

On May 25th, UNC-Chapel Hill on Thursday released a public version of its most recent response to the NCAA, which the university submitted on May 16.

Overall, UNC is arguing, according to the article below, that the problems "...related to the African Studies courses at the heart of the NCAA investigation are not subject to NCAA bylaws. UNC’s accrediting agency found those courses to be fraudulent, but the university maintains that the classes don’t constitute a violation of NCAA rules." It stresses that these courses were open to more "normal" students than just athletes and that the situation has been improperly presented by the media (of course).

Here's the newspaper's summary of the response from Tarheel Central.

Here’s what UNC’s response to the NCAA’s latest notice of allegations says

 

[Charliebball]

Here's a pretty clear article on UNC's viewpoint for those willing to consider their side of the issue.................it actually is a fairly persuasive argument although UNC haters won't buy any of it......

http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina/story/1780922-unc-leaning-on-precedent

 

[nwhoopfan]

I think McCants is a fairly well documented malcontent. Is his opinion worth more than everybody else that has ever played for Roy?

 

[GoingPostal]

I believe Roy Williams when he says he knows nothing about the problems with the African Studies courses. I say that because it appears there may be an "unwritten" rule about head coaches giving there assistants a free hand when dealing with recruits and the academics of the players. By doing that they have deniability when the you know what hits the fan. Rick Pitino at Louisville is another case in point. He claims he didn't know what his assistant was doing when the assistant arranged for sexual favors for recruits. It's the Schultz defense. "I KNOW NOTHING!"

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Here's a pretty clear article on UNC's viewpoint for those willing to consider their side of the issue.......it actually is a fairly persuasive argument although UNC haters won't buy any of it.

http://www.scout.com/college/north-carolina/story/1780922-unc-leaning-on-precedent

But that is the root of the NCAA's problem - that they are not consistent across institutions and similar violations.

I don't think there is any evidence that the fraudulent classes were created specifically for athletes (possibly at any of the schools), but there certainly were athletes that took advantage of them. The other cases cited of classes tailored specifically for athletes doesn't claim that they were fraudulent - and given that athletes are admitted to colleges that don't belong there, educationally - I'd have to know a lot more before condemning this practice across the board.

My issues - did the school (at any level) knowingly funnel students to what they knew was a fraudulent class (as opposed to an "easy A", even my very respectable GPA self took 1 or 2 "easy A's") and secondly, how did they treat the "whistle-blowers"? Regardless of the NCAA actions, those 2 factors are, at least to me, the only 2 that really matter.

 

[UcMiami]

There are certainly documented cases at UNC where specific grade requirements were communicated for specific athletes which brings home the fraud and lays it at the feet of the AD - but the ones I know of are specific to the WCBB program. At the same time there is the presentation made to the men by the head of the academics advisors indicating they had a serious problem finding a new way to keep athletes eligible once the courses in the department were exposed.

In addition, many of the fraudulent courses were in fact 'independent study' courses - the issue of one professor 'overseeing' an inordinate number of those 'courses' in a single semester forced some changes to the way the 'program' was run - so I am not sure how 'other students' could have been eligible for those specific 'independent studies'?

I do get what UNC is trying to say, but there is also a general requirement that athletic programs and coaches maintain overall responsibility for the conduct of their program - with 1000s of hours of fraudulent credits for athletes the situation is not the same as a few athletes discovering a gut course, or some misguided local businessman supplying free food or clothes to a specific athlete.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Roy Williams is an "Aw Shucks" type of guy who deflects and dances away from anything that would be harmful to his program's eligibility

I would respect him more as part of an educational institution if he gave even the slightest hint that he was seeking the full truth.

 

[triaddukefan]

BY C JACKSON COWART

jcowart@charlotteobserver.com

Former North Carolina men’s basketball star Rashad McCants says he has no relationship with UNC or coach Roy Williams - and that isn’t likely to change anytime soon.

In 2014, McCants alleged that the university kept him eligible through fake classes and minimal attendance, and he said his former coach was complicit with the scheme. Williams has denied any knowledge of wrongdoing, but McCants has stuck to his claims.

“The things he’s done and said and denied, I just can’t respect,” said McCants, who played for Williams for two seasons. “As a coach, he’s a great coach, and he’s deserving of the Hall of Fame and everything that’s coming to him. But as a man, I don’t have anything to say.”

Through a spokesman, Williams declined comment.

Think i may need to order me a throwback Rashad McCants jersey

 

[Bayareahusky]

Think i may need to order me a throwback Rashad McCants jersey

saluting your school for valuing education.....

It is laughable that at a major institution such as UNC, students can take a "free pass" major such as American Studies.... Then, the student does not have to go to class, or do own work toward degree. Then, the university says "What did WE do? Then the NCAA seems perplexed on what to do.....

 

[Checkmate]

saluting your school for valuing education.....

It is laughable that at a major institution such as UNC, students can take a "free pass" major such as American Studies.... Then, the student does not have to go to class, or do own work toward degree. Then, the university says "What did WE do? Then the NCAA seems perplexed on what to do.....

I doubt UNC is the only school with bogus classes.....I am sure the NCAA knows how widespread this is.


The NCAA crushes most schools that do not fight back. When a school contests charges and uses lawyers , everything drags out. It becomes very expensive too.

 

[bags27]

Checkmate (great and apposite handle!) has it right: those who are willing to fight can pretty much wear anyone down. There is no consistent justice in these cases. Education is a moving target. How many non-athletes took the course; how does that compare with similar "gut courses" at other comparable institutions, etc. etc etc. If UNC wants to go to the mat on this, it will likely play for a draw--which is its hope.

I have served as an external accreditor at similar institutions. I have never heard discussed by teams I've participated in anything so narrowly focused as the standards of an individual course or even a cluster of courses within a program. That this was identified by the external team suggests to me that it was exceptionally egregious and very likely a source of complaint by students and faculty in other areas of the university.

And that leads me to the conclusion that UNC may win its battle against the NCAA but will lose the respect of faculty and students at its own institution who will only grow even more cynical about its leadership. But that's nothing new today: I reluctantly admit that higher education is now largely a commodity, a big business; and like religion and medicine before it, is quickly losing the overall respect and admiration of the public.

 

[Bayareahusky]

I doubt UNC is the only school with bogus classes.....I am sure the NCAA knows how widespread this is.


The NCAA crushes most schools that do not fight back. When a school contests charges and uses lawyers , everything drags out. It becomes very expensive too.

Maybe so, but I do not know of any schools who have been called on the carpet multiple times in recent years.....

Vince Carter famously boasted publicly 20 years ago about not having to go to class at all at UNC.... and it still continued....

If it was so prevalent with others, I would have expected to hear something to that effect.

 

[CL82]

I believe Roy Williams when he says he knows nothing about the problems with the African Studies courses. I say that because it appears there may be an "unwritten" rule about head coaches giving there assistants a free hand when dealing with recruits and the academics of the players. By doing that they have deniability when the you know what hits the fan. Rick Pitino at Louisville is another case in point. He claims he didn't know what his assistant was doing when the assistant arranged for sexual favors for recruits. It's the Schultz defense. "I KNOW NOTHING!"

Hmm sure sounds like lack of institutional control, doesn't it?

 

[CL82]

Think i may need to order me a throwback Rashad McCants jersey

 

[HoopsFan21]

If this happened at UConn, the NCAA would have completed the investigation and punished inside of a month. Coach Ollie would be collecting unemployment, Gampel would have already been bulldozed, and the trophy case melted down and sold for scrap.

 

[bags27]

If this happened at UConn, the NCAA would have completed the investigation and punished inside of a month. Coach Ollie would be collecting unemployment, Gampel would have already been bulldozed, and the trophy case melted down and sold for scrap.

Don't be so sure of that. A lot depends on the politics in the triangular relationship among: the university president, her or his board of regents, and the governor. Politics, alumni relations, etc. play massive and unpredictable roles here. It's impossible to predict how these things will break, even within the schools with the highest integrity.

read this:
HOCKEY; Vermont Cancels Season In Player Hazing Scandal

and then this:
Ramaley resigns Vermont post

between the lines, she was fired for taking a stand, believe me on that. Ramaley was an excellent scientist, a committed administrator, and a good, good person. Vermont was in terrible shape before she was hired and she was the best thing to happen there in a long time. But she made a principled stand on the one sport that counted there and paid the price.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Here's a pretty clear article on UNC's viewpoint for those willing to consider their side of the issue.......it actually is a fairly persuasive argument although UNC haters won't buy any of it.

UNC Leaning on Precedent

I have not skin in or out of UNC's issues. Fairness/decency/level playing field is where I wear my skin. The arguments presented by UNC is the kind my mother heard from me and who replied---if everyone jumped off the GW bridge would you? The point is: If 10 people shoot up a 7-ll--and one is caught---does the 1 go free?
Tailoring classes and courses has been around as long as there has been Alums and Players in schools that take in big bucks from sports.

 

[huskeynut]

We all know nothing, I repeat nothing, will happen to UNC. The NCAA is a paper lion.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Don't be so sure of that. A lot depends on the politics in the triangular relationship among: the university president, her or his board of regents, and the governor. Politics, alumni relations, etc. play massive and unpredictable roles here. It's impossible to predict how these things will break, even within the schools with the highest integrity.

read this:
HOCKEY; Vermont Cancels Season In Player Hazing Scandal

and then this:
Ramaley resigns Vermont post

between the lines, she was fired for taking a stand, believe me on that. Ramaley was an excellent scientist, a committed administrator, and a good, good person. Vermont was in terrible shape before she was hired and she was the best thing to happen there in a long time. But she made a principled stand on the one sport that counted there and paid the price.

I like your moral stance. The lesson here is---being right does not mean you will be liked or find approval. However, my view--as naive as it is, ---is---we need more Administrators/Presidents among the College elite---that does what is right and fair and not just to keep the job or be politically correct. Going up against strong, heavily endowed Alums and fan--presents almost a certainty your throat shall be cut.
I applaud this high morals lady. Hazing is old as the hills--it was wrong and stupid when it began --an just plain ignorant now. Athletes, or others, prove they belong by their actions on the fields, court or courtrooms..

 

[Charliebball]

We all know nothing, I repeat nothing, will happen to UNC. The NCAA is a paper lion.

I'm not so sure about that.........even if UNC wins their argument with the NCAA which is somewhat doubtful, I would expect them to self impose some kind of penalty

 

[BroadwayVa]

If this happened at UConn, the NCAA would have completed the investigation and punished inside of a month. Coach Ollie would be collecting unemployment, Gampel would have already been bulldozed, and the trophy case melted down and sold for scrap.

I agree with Bags27---but your point is one I also agree with---the NCAA has multiple standards --it would appear--however, Uconn is not pure and altruistic . Uconn Fans and Alum and politicians want to win big and often--they have dumped many many millions into Uconn sports--and want payback---However they, to my knowledge, while I'm sure have athlete courses, don't resemble the gifts at UNC

 

[BroadwayVa]

I'm not so sure about that....even if UNC wins their argument with the NCAA which is somewhat doubtful, I would expect them to self impose some kind of penalty

Charlie--I hope you are right about self imposed punishment/penalty. BUT, nothing UNC has done so far or for the the last 20 years or so--would indicate a high moral compass--I suppose that is too much to ask of Universities with Big Sports programs---now if they came out with the Revelation akin to Baylor--the solution that works for me--burn it down..--I'd do that in a second if not for the good kids and honest athletes at both schools who earned better treatment. Tough decision what and how to fix the wrong and punish the guilty.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Checkmate (great and apposite handle!) has it right: those who are willing to fight can pretty much wear anyone down. There is no consistent justice in these cases. Education is a moving target. How many non-athletes took the course; how does that compare with similar "gut courses" at other comparable institutions, etc. etc etc. If UNC wants to go to the mat on this, it will likely play for a draw--which is its hope.

I have served as an external accreditor at similar institutions. I have never heard discussed by teams I've participated in anything so narrowly focused as the standards of an individual course or even a cluster of courses within a program. That this was identified by the external team suggests to me that it was exceptionally egregious and very likely a source of complaint by students and faculty in other areas of the university.

And that leads me to the conclusion that UNC may win its battle against the NCAA but will lose the respect of faculty and students at its own institution who will only grow even more cynical about its leadership. But that's nothing new today: I reluctantly admit that higher education is now largely a commodity, a big business; and like religion and medicine before it, is quickly losing the overall respect and admiration of the public.

You are again Morally correct!! My view, ignorant and naive with a touch of the practical, is: If the NCAA blows this over and no sanctions are given to UNC---for a few days, week s, months--a memory of the distasteful episode shall fade--and business as usual shall continue--Americans have short memories--too short--thats why any history learned is soon gone completely --except for people like you.
That which is remembered is that which the Media's wants you to remember--as distorted-as it sometimes comes out.

If UNC wins--expect to see this happening in many schools--legal precedent has happened---and the UNC argument shall be the norm.