OT: UNC Academic Fraud Investigation

[Bayareahusky]

No Roy, it is not your job to intimately infiltrate and interfere with academics...... that is not what we are talking about...... you sat on the sidelines and did nothing while most of your players are taking the same major, and an easy one at that..... at least monitor what classes they are taking, check their progress, and get under the hood just a bit...... you have failed as a leader of young men with your hands off attitude....... and frankly, your appearances lately proclaiming you are doing everything right is disgusting.

 

[pinotbear]

No Roy, it is not your job to intimately infiltrate and interfere with academics. that is not what we are talking about. you sat on the sidelines and did nothing while most of your players are taking the same major, and an easy one at that..... at least monitor what classes they are taking, check their progress, and get under the hood just a bit. you have failed as a leader of young men with your hands off attitude.. and frankly, your appearances lately proclaiming you are doing everything right is disgusting.

Only slightly analogous, I worked at a respected, expensive private college for over 11 years (non-academic position). I learned through the years that it was often convenient for the "higher-ups" (deans, VP's, college Pres.) to "not know" about problems. They not only didn't dig into situations, but, they actively avoided doing so - because, if they DID know about a problem, in their position, they had a responsibility to try and solve it.

One of the weird things about a college or university that most folks don't understand is, it's a managerial nightmare. Even my little protected enclave of a school was, at the time, a 60-million dollar-a-year business. But, rather than a business producing a product or two, it was a multi-million dollar property management business (dorms, grounds, academic buildings, power plant, HVAC, plumbing, etc.), a multi-million dollar food service business, athletic business, lodging business, security business, library, recruiting, accounting. All of these functions are subservient to the golden idol of academia (professors are not, generally speaking, modest about their work), the influence of alumni and donors, the complaints of students and parents ("I'm paying $$$ to this place!"), and public perception. And, you don't get to turn off the office lights at 5 pm on Friday.

Trying to manage all these different disciplines, egos, and interests is very, very tough. The learning curve for university/college leaders is long and mistake-filled. So terribly often, the most expedient thing for them to do is to not acknowledge a problem until they absolutely have to.

 

[pap49cba]

Jeff Jacobs weighs in... LINK

 

[loneycafe]

I just realized why the ACC is curiously silent on the UNC scandal - John Swofford (the ACC commissioner) was the UNC athletic director when the fraud was initiated and during its first five years.
I am surprised that he has not been hounded by reporters asking awkward questions - and I would think the ACC member schools should start looking for someone new.

Sports reporters did ask him about the scandal, including his time as AD, during his press conference yesterday as part of the ACC MBB Media Day. Here's one write-up that appeared in the News & Observer --> ACC Commissioner Swofford: Saw no warning signs as UNC's AD

A full transcript of his comments, including the Q&A with reporters, is here --> http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/story/1474544-acc-media-day-john-swofford?s=178

 

[loneycafe]

I just realized that Boxill, the professor and director of the Ethics Center who in an email string is clearly complicit in fraud is still employed as a professor at UNC - her directorship has been removed but she is still a member of the faculty. What sort of bad joke is this. It does not matter if she has tenure - her actions are such that she can be fired anyway.
And this crap about ethical dilemma - if you are a professor and a student is unable to perform work to the standards of your course, there is no dilemma, you cannot pass them. Academic integrity is not a sliding scale.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-...broiled-in-the-unc-fake-class-scandal-2014-10

Boxill actually isn't tenured. She was the first non-tenured faculty member to be elected chair of the faculty.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/07/20/3044746_unc-faculty-leader-pushed-rewrite.html?rh=1

 

[Bgillon]

Sports reporters did ask him about the scandal, including his time as AD, during his press conference yesterday as part of the ACC MBB Media Day. Here's one write-up that appeared in the News & Observer --> ACC Commissioner Swofford: Saw no warning signs as UNC's AD

A full transcript of his comments, including the Q&A with reporters, is here --> http://northcarolinastate.scout.com/story/1474544-acc-media-day-john-swofford?s=178

After reading the transcript, it seems a few people were able to help over 3,100 "students" without any people in senior positions at UNC knowing about it over an 18 year period. That's a better job than our FBI or CIA can do. It is a disgusting situation and as usual the cover up creates the second problem. this is a great example of a problem in our country, i.e. lack of personal accountability.

 

[DobbsRover2]

The NCAA nailed Penn State because they covered up child rape on their campus. The only problem with that premise is that no child was ever raped on their campus, at least according to the verdict handed down in Sandusky's trial.

May get banned again for this question, but so be it. Sandusky was found guilty of indecent assault or worse for 6 of 10 of the many victims whose cases were actually part of the trial, but I guess you're saying that the campus incidents were ones he only got the "unlawful contact," "corruption of minors," and "endangering welfare of children" convictions on. Even if that is so, then PSU was covering up these very serious offenses on campus by someone who was convicted of being a child rapist. So what's your big beef with the "premise" that in this case for once the NCAA might have actually done the right thing in assigning penalties for reprehensible actions?

But yes, back to a UNC morass discussion that likely had more victims than even Sandusky could tally up.

 

[HoopsFan21]

May get banned again for this question, but so be it. Sandusky was found guilty of indecent assault or worse for 6 of 10 of the many victims whose cases were actually part of the trial, but I guess you're saying that the campus incidents were ones he only got the "unlawful contact," "corruption of minors," and "endangering welfare of children" convictions on. Even if that is so, then PSU was covering up these very serious offenses on campus by someone who was convicted of being a child rapist. So what's your big beef with the "premise" that in this case for once the NCAA might have actually done the right thing in assigning penalties for reprehensible actions?

But yes, back to a UNC morass discussion that likely had more victims than even Sandusky could tally up.

So was PSU punished because something bad occurred on their campus or were they punished because something bad happened on their campus and they supposedly covered it up? If it's the latter, no such cover up has been proven. If it's the former, every college is screwed based on the amount of reprehensible things occurring every single day on campuses across America. The NCAA's enforcement should be limited to what is stated in the rules - no more and no less. If you don't do that where do you draw the line? How do you ensure rules are being applied fairly?

The NCAA did the wrong thing in this case. They should have never gotten involved in what was a purely criminal matter. I said it at the time without having even looked into the facts that this was a very dangerous precedent that the NCAA was setting. I assure you all other P5 schools were taking notes, and the NCAA's inconsistent application of rules and punishments is one more reason to jettison the NCAA as it presents a tremendous risk to the schools. Effectively the NCAA has declared that it can punish a member institution for any reason it finds immoral where there are no explicit rules violations. Imagine if the legal system worked that way? It would be absolute chaos. I really can't paint a better picture for you as to how this precedent could result in abuses of power by an organization that is known for its corruption and ineptitude.

Now the NCAA has repealed most of the sanctions and have called the whole thing "an experiment." Call me crazy, but I would never want to be part of some experimental new punishment, especially when after a couple of years of it the NCAA basically says, OK we were wrong, sorry and have a nice day. Oh yeah one more stupid thing about this is that the football team was hit because Paterno didn't do enough, which I guess equates to attempting to cover up what Sandusky did, but the NCAA's new guidelines for dealing with such crimes involving athletic department employees is exactly what Paterno did. To quote these new guidelines, staff are to "report the crime to the appropriate campus offices" and "do not manage, direct, control, or interfere in the investigation." I guess the old man did the right thing after all in the eyes of the NCAA's own newly published guidelines.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

One ESPN article today. Roy Williams is worried about his reputation.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bas...ried-sick-ncaa-investigation-academic-scandal

"What could I have done?" Williams said when asked if he should have been more involved in his players' academics. "I think people would have been offended if I said, 'How are you teaching this course?' That's not my job.

Huckleberry Hound is being quite defensive.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Yes it is incredible how the NCAA has backtracked on the Penn State issue. They really took the independent investigation results and came to quick judgment on it.

One thing on Paterno..... that i always have thought ..... Paterno was never one to alert authorities and call it a day when something affected his program. I know of a case in 2005 I believe, when he used his power to push the VP of Student Affairs (i think) out the door because she attempted to discipline players on the team, and he wanted to be solely responsible for matters connected to his team. I fault Paterno for blocking others from getting involved in matters like these over his tenure..... on everything else in the Sandusky affair, he got the short end of the stick

 

[HoopsFan21]

Yes it is incredible how the NCAA has backtracked on the Penn State issue. They really took the independent investigation results and came to quick judgment on it.

One thing on Paterno..... that i always have thought ..... Paterno was never one to alert authorities and call it a day when something affected his program. I know of a case in 2005 I believe, when he used his power to push the VP of Student Affairs (i think) out the door because she attempted to discipline players on the team, and he wanted to be solely responsible for matters connected to his team. I fault Paterno for blocking others from getting involved in matters like these over his tenure..... on everything else in the Sandusky affair, he got the short end of the stick

It's funny you mention that VP of Student Affairs. She was at UConn before Penn State while Emmert was Chancellor of UConn. She had a very rocky tenure at Penn State before being ousted even if you exclude what went on with the football program (from what I can tell with a little google research). And Freeh, the "independent investigator" that wrote the report that sunk Penn State had represented some of the board members in their corporate affairs, and was the man in charge of the FBI when they falsely accused Jewel of the Atlanta Olympic bombings. So I'm not sure I'd just go along with whatever that guy wrote in his report. I do agree it's probably a bad idea for coaches to be responsible for punishment of student-athletes because of the conflict of interest, but I guess Paterno being old school and what 70-80 years old wanted to do things his way as he had done them since the beginning of time. I will say this, at least he enforced academic standards and graduated his players, and that's something I can respect because not many other coaches and programs have had the on the field and in the classroom success he had. Here's a man that dedicated his entire life to one school, lived humbly, didn't demand $4 million/year contracts, donated millions to the school to build a new library and various other non-athletic buildings on campus, and at the end of all that his thanks is to be made out to be this sinister puppet master as he was quietly dieing of cancer? Something there doesn't add up for me, and I would hate for something like that to ever happen to one of our coaches.

 

[DobbsRover2]

So was PSU punished because something bad occurred on their campus or were they punished because something bad happened on their campus and they supposedly covered it up? If it's the latter, no such cover up has been proven. If it's the former, every college is screwed based on the amount of reprehensible things occurring every single day on campuses across America. The NCAA's enforcement should be limited to what is stated in the rules - no more and no less. If you don't do that where do you draw the line? How do you ensure rules are being applied fairly?

The NCAA did the wrong thing in this case. They should have never gotten involved in what was a purely criminal matter. I said it at the time without having even looked into the facts that this was a very dangerous precedent that the NCAA was setting. I assure you all other P5 schools were taking notes, and the NCAA's inconsistent application of rules and punishments is one more reason to jettison the NCAA as it presents a tremendous risk to the schools. Effectively the NCAA has declared that it can punish a member institution for any reason it finds immoral where there are no explicit rules violations. Imagine if the legal system worked that way? It would be absolute chaos. I really can't paint a better picture for you as to how this precedent could result in abuses of power by an organization that is known for its corruption and ineptitude.

Now the NCAA has repealed most of the sanctions and have called the whole thing "an experiment." Call me crazy, but I would never want to be part of some experimental new punishment, especially when after a couple of years of it the NCAA basically says, OK we were wrong, sorry and have a nice day. Oh yeah one more stupid thing about this is that the football team was hit because Paterno didn't do enough, which I guess equates to attempting to cover up what Sandusky did, but the NCAA's new guidelines for dealing with such crimes involving athletic department employees is exactly what Paterno did. To quote these new guidelines, staff are to "report the crime to the appropriate campus offices" and "do not manage, direct, control, or interfere in the investigation." I guess the old man did the right thing after all in the eyes of the NCAA's own newly published guidelines.

The PSU faithful will vigorously defend the actions of the admin in the Sandusky case as being totally in the bounds of legal obligations and that nothing against the Curley-Schultz-Spanier group has ever been proven, knowing that the trial could get pushed years down the road and that ironically the actions of the PSU counsel could allow the defendants the chance to walk away without having to address the troubling issues raised in their indictment. It is also true that even outside of the NCAA sanctions, PSU has borne the penalties of the huge costs in settlements to Sandusky's victims. And yes Paterno may have possibly even followed the correct legal line of reporting the incident and then turning his back on further knowledge of it. And we can accept the PSU faithful's assertion with a straight face that JoePa's heir apparent and defensive genius coach stepped aside from his duties as the charges were first being made because made in 1999 due to maybe some need for family time without any involvement from Paterno in this decision.

The problem of waiting sometimes years for legal decisions to be played out and then how to mete out the punishment in the case of a conviction on a changing institution like a university is indeed a tough one. Should the future students of a UNC or a PSU or an FSU suffer for the actions of past administrations? Not really fair. Should publicity conscious admins be allowed to stifle investigations into the many recent abuse cases knowing that no one around them wants a scandal to sully a school's image? The victims feel otherwise.

These are knotty problems that challenge our concepts of justice and morality, but to skirt the huge ethical issues that bedeviled PSU and say that "no child rapes" were ever proven to have happened there or that the school's admins did not seek counsel about how to "handle" them, well, that's being way too close-eyed for those of us who have read the documents about the case.

 

[Bayareahusky]

HoopsFan21.... yes, your words are good ones..... and I am certainly a JoePa fan...... having no dog in this fight ...... Joe is in history and was in living history beyond reproach.... and yes, he did things the right way..... my only issue with him is his insistence on being judge and jury for all things related to anything that happened in his program connected with discipline......

It is a shame that the NCAA was quick to action..... as they quite clearly have in so many words said since "We are sorry we penalized you so severely..... we probably made a mistake in doing so....."..... but they haven't come full circle and made corrections like giving Joe back his victories..... It is a shame in our country of checks and balances, the NCAA has nobody checking THEM.....

 

[SWHuskyFan]

HoopsFan21.... yes, your words are good ones..... and I am certainly a JoePa fan. having no dog in this fight . Joe is in history and was in living history beyond reproach.... and yes, he did things the right way..... my only issue with him is his insistence on being judge and jury for all things related to anything that happened in his program connected with discipline.

It is a shame that the NCAA was quick to action..... as they quite clearly have in so many words said since "We are sorry we penalized you so severely..... we probably made a mistake in doing so....."..... but they haven't come full circle and made corrections like giving Joe back his victories..... It is a shame in our country of checks and balances, the NCAA has nobody checking THEM.....

I don't read the NCAA's removal of sanctions that way at all. I read it as them stopping punishing people who are now completely removed from the crime and the coverup of the crime. Joepa got some of what he deserved but not nearly enough. Time does not make his actions or lack of action look any better to me.

 

[Icebear]

Dobbs the damage was done by ESPN's horrible coverage which drove shoddy information. There was only one event on campus. It was reported by McQueery to Paterno and by Paterno exactly according to the law and the NCAA now requires exactly that same process.

Sandusky was terminated in 1999 because he was forced to make a decision between PSU and the time being required at the Second Mile Foundation. It had nothing to do with his family or time with them. Given what we know now that Second Mile was his primary hunting ground the choice for him was obvious. That is prior to anyone at PSU knowing anything about Sandusky's activities which were previously investigated only by State Authorities.

The Freeh Report was so badly done that it has regularly been criticized by those studying it. Speculation is that the NCAA has backed off on much of it penalties in an effort to cut off many of the suits. The greatest flaws of the Freeh report is it made huge overreaches and assumptions not based on facts in evidence.

Again, Paterno's exact actions have now been justified by the NCAAs own actions and policy. 'Nuff said. To date absolutely no public evidence has arisen indicating in anyway that Joe knew anything about any of Sandusky's actions in one of the most researched events of this nature.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Ice, as always you can take the view that JoePa somehow knew nothing. I have talked with former professors of PSU at the time who like me having grown up as extreme PSU fans took jobs at the school as dream jobs only to be totally disillusioned by the ethical culture of the admins, and the Renee Portland situation was just one of many situations they were shocked about. And they state that it was a fact that Joe knew minutiae-detail everything about PSU and certainly anything concerning his football program. You can naturally believe that Joe was totally in the dark about all the incidents involving Sandusky in the 1990s and that he took at face value that his heir apparent suddenly decided he needed to devote more time to the boys at Second Mile than continue with the Lions, and I'll continue believing in tooth fairies.

Sure the Freeh report was messy, and this is not a black-and-white world. We all want justice to be fast and clean, but these situations rarely work out that way, and institutions have many means to stall proceedings, muddy the waters of evidence, and screw up legal proceedings by semi-inadvertent blunders. I fully understand the anguish of innocents who are penalized by the misdeeds of the admins, but to have the PSU faithful asserting that no Sandusky crimes have been proven to have happened there that the admins knew anything about and that all the sanctions taken against the school are unfair -- that's just unseemly. I fully realize that after the school and its counsel messed up its procedures that Curley, Schultz and Spanier case may never go to trial, but the stench rising from their actions as described in the so-far released documentation will linger for decades. Hopefully, admins at all universities are now on the alert there may be grave penalties for turning their backs on the victims while seeking legal advice on "just what they need to do" to avoid incriminating actions. Probably too much to hope for though.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

Dobbs the damage was done by ESPN's horrible coverage which drove shoddy information. There was only one event on campus. It was reported by McQueery to Paterno and by Paterno exactly according to the law and the NCAA now requires exactly that same process.

Sandusky was terminated in 1999 because he was forced to make a decision between PSU and the time being required at the Second Mile Foundation. It had nothing to do with his family or time with them. Given what we know now that Second Mile was his primary hunting ground the choice for him was obvious. That is prior to anyone at PSU knowing anything about Sandusky's activities which were previously investigated only by State Authorities.

The Freeh Report was so badly done that it has regularly been criticized by those studying it. Speculation is that the NCAA has backed off on much of it penalties in an effort to cut off many of the suits. The greatest flaws of the Freeh report is it made huge overreaches and assumptions not based on facts in evidence.

Again, Paterno's exact actions have now been justified by the NCAAs own actions and policy. 'Nuff said. To date absolutely no public evidence has arisen indicating in anyway that Joe knew anything about any of Sandusky's actions in one of the most researched events of this nature.

Paterno's actions have certainly not been justified. Even if he reported upward in his chain, he knew nothing happened. He had a responsibility as a human being to report that monster to the police. Why people feel so necessary to protect their sports hero over the kids that were traumatized here bothers me to no end.

The likelihood that he didn't know about this is infinitesimally low. He knew about everything else that went on and everyone above and below him knew about it. I don't get the need to protect this guys legacy.

 

[Beemer]

Paterno's actions have certainly not been justified. Even if he reported upward in his chain, he knew nothing happened. He had a responsibility as a human being to report that monster to the police. Why people feel so necessary to protect their sports hero over the kids that were traumatized here bothers me to no end.

The likelihood that he didn't know about this is infinitesimally low. He knew about everything else that went on and everyone above and below him knew about it. I don't get the need to protect this guys legacy.

I have never understood this either.

As you say Paterno had a moral obligation to turn Sandusky in to the police. That he didn't do so speaks volumes as to the kind of man he really was-he was more concerned about his program's public image than the actual harm Sandusky inflicted on those boys. Shameful doesn't even begin to describe it. And yes I know Paterno & Sandusky had known each other for decades and that it wouldn't have been an easy thing for Paterno to turn his friend & colleague in to the police. But damn it all there were children being abused and that is something no one should ignore. Yet Paterno did nothing other than the very minimum required of him. Yet there are still many people who consider him a great man & defend him to this day.

 

[HoopsFan21]

I have never understood this either.

As you say Paterno had a moral obligation to turn Sandusky in to the police. That he didn't do so speaks volumes as to the kind of man he really was-he was more concerned about his program's public image than the actual harm Sandusky inflicted on those boys. Shameful doesn't even begin to describe it. And yes I know Paterno & Sandusky had known each other for decades and that it wouldn't have been an easy thing for Paterno to turn his friend & colleague in to the police. But damn it all there were children being abused and that is something no one should ignore. Yet Paterno did nothing other than the very minimum required of him. Yet there are still many people who consider him a great man & defend him to this day.

I likely would have done the same thing he did if someone tells me what McQueary told him. I probably would have just brushed it off as a mistake or misinterpretation especially if it was someone I had known for a long time. My guess is nothing happened that night in the shower. Why? First he told his doctor friend after it happened, then was buddy buddy with the supposed child moldster for years afterwards (consulting him on recruits, playing golf with him, etc.), the school administrators accused of the cover up all seem pretty consistent in describing a much more watered down version (horse play)of what McQueary now claims he told everyone, McQueary's testimony has changed while everyone else's is more or less the same, there is no complainant, Paterno supposedly asked McQueary a few weeks later if he was satisfied with the resolution to which McQueary said he was, and finally just simple human nature: if you're a 30 year old grown man and you witness something horrific as he claimed, do you just grab something from your locker and run out, or do you call the police instinctually like any of us would have? Too many holes in that one incident, and that one incident is why everyone wanted to nuke Penn State.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

There are no holes in the incident. He reported what he saw to the person most in control of the situation. That person was a party to the cover up of the story. As for the people involved and their story, who really believes them? They covered it up, they conspired to squash the story, of course their story is consistent. They planned out the story together, that's the conspiracy part. McQueary clearly should have done more, but he was young and likely scared for his livelihood. I can understand what he did, don't like it , but understand it. Also, no one is making a crusade to clear McQueary's name, only to make him the fall guy. The only person that anyone seems to care about clearing is JoePa. I haven't heard anyone defend the rest of them, only JoePa was innocent somehow.

 

[CL82]

Now the NCAA has repealed most of the sanctions and have called the whole thing "an experiment." Call me crazy, but I would never want to be part of some experimental new punishment, especially when after a couple of years of it the NCAA basically says, OK we were wrong, sorry and have a nice day.

Well UConn MBB certainly seen it's share of NCAA "experiments."

Texting is bad and you've done it too much but after your punishment we'll just drop the rule. Students who transfer out of your university are a bad thing, especially if they are struggling acamdemically. If it happens we'll dock you a scholarship, maybe two if we're really pissed. Wait did you just win a National Championship down two scholarships? Well we're making up a new rule prohibiting post season play for that. Oh by the way, we're applying it retroactively, using the same scores that we've already punished you for. What that means it is impossible for you to be in compliance? Don't care. What? You have up to date scores and if we use them you will be in compliance. We won't use them.

Don't get me started....

 

[Icebear]

Paterno's actions have certainly not been justified. Even if he reported upward in his chain, he knew nothing happened. He had a responsibility as a human being to report that monster to the police. Why people feel so necessary to protect their sports hero over the kids that were traumatized here bothers me to no end.

The likelihood that he didn't know about this is infinitesimally low. He knew about everything else that went on and everyone above and below him knew about it. I don't get the need to protect this guys legacy.

If he had done what you suggest he would have been breaking the law. As a trained and mandated reporter in PA I am well aware of what we are expected to do and what we are to not do. Every PA school teacher is trained it that same manner. Paterno had no proof of what was done, he was not a eye witness. He had no way of knowing that Sandusky was the monster you suggest. You and I know it is true because of the charges that were eventually brought and the benefit of hindsight.

McQueary's comments about the incident have been inconsistent. Paterno did make further inquiry and was told the investigation was proceeding. He repeated such to McQueary. It is Curley and Schultz who remain at the heart of the situation and President Spanier to a lesser extent.

Unless you know the structure and nature of the relationship between Joe and the others involved you have no means to assess the situation and to make any comment about what Joe knew or didn't know. Many of the assumptions that have been speculated on in the media do not reflect the reality.

 

[Icebear]

There are no holes in the incident. He reported what he saw to the person most in control of the situation. That person was a party to the cover up of the story. As for the people involved and their story, who really believes them? They covered it up, they conspired to squash the story, of course their story is consistent. They planned out the story together, that's the conspiracy part. McQueary clearly should have done more, but he was young and likely scared for his livelihood. I can understand what he did, don't like it , but understand it. Also, no one is making a crusade to clear McQueary's name, only to make him the fall guy. The only person that anyone seems to care about clearing is JoePa. I haven't heard anyone defend the rest of them, only JoePa was innocent somehow.

Not near to the truth or accurate in any way.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

No use talking to someone who is blinded by homerism. I do think JoePa is criminally liable in this situation. They lacked the proof to go forward with charges, but that hardly makes him innocent.

 

[Icebear]

No use talking to someone who is blinded by homerism. I do think JoePa is criminally liable in this situation. They lacked the proof to go forward with charges, but that hardly makes him innocent.

Seeing I live within 45 minutes of campus and know many, many people who work at PSU and some who played for Joe I can honestly say your perception does not jive with the facts at all. I am far from a homer and had no problem finding Rene Portland accountable for everything she did.

Read Joe Posnanski book on Paterno which is the fairest and most honest portrayal of JoePA in print.